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If you want to argue guns are OP there's a little more of a case for that but it tends to be with unexpected classes like the holy gun or as you noted the fighter archetype.
The gunslinger is not that class.
Really? Further up you said 320 was broken. I get to 350 and now that's fine?
And really what's your point? You're "Lazy Barbarian" can't do 1/3 of the stuff you're talking about. You didn't take Beast Totems, you didn't pay for a permanent enlarge, you didn't buy flying potions (but I guess those don't count anyway)... Hmm I wonder what the Gunslinger DPR would be if I made him permanently enlarged? Add another 2.5 per bullet for 10 bullets, now I'm up to 375. What was your morphing to anything you need at the time barbarian's again?
Also trying to say the gunslinger isn't broken because things are more broken is kind of like saying having your skin ripped off is fun because dying is bad.
Its not actually that. Saying a "gunslinger isn´t broken because something powerful(eg. Barbarian) which is not considered broken is more powerful" is what is beign tested here.
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Dramatization:
"hey rogues are broken, they do too much damage"
"but slayers are not broken and they do more damage"
"trying to say the rogue isn't broken because slayers are more broken is kind of like saying having your skin ripped off is fun because dying is bad."
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The Pistolero can be brutal, but if you're looking for the "smoking gun" which makes Gunslinger DPR go way up I think that gun is double-barreled. I think touch attacks in general are a game mechanic which could use a tweak, but it is probably the ability to get two attacks in the place of one which makes the Gunslinger seem completely nuts to me.
Since the -4 penalty for the "double shot" isn't likely to make touch attacks miss doubling the number of attacks seems pretty close to doubling DPR. If you restrict the "double shot" to a standard action most of the higher DPR Gunslinger builds would probably come back down to Earth (or Golarion as the case might be).
I'd hope that even those who don't feel the Gunslinger's DPR is problematic might wonder if it is really a good idea to have one gun which does twice as much damage as another. If the Barbarian had access to a "double-bladed greataxe" which can split each attack into two at -4 to hit I suspect that might become problematic too. Even AM Barbarian would probably do a lot more damage dual wielding "double lances". Game balance aside, doubling a PC's number of attacks can create more die rolls than some folks would like to see, especially if TWF is involved.
@wraithstrike - You can eventually reload as many barrels per round as you wish using alchemical cartridges. At lower levels this is expensive and will tend to make your gun misfire. At higher levels the cost is negligible, especially in the case we'd discussed where a PC pops into existence fully equipped. Even Paizo couldn't manage to slow down the Gunslinger's reload rate (they tried a free action FAQ, but it got rejected)
A Clarification, Double Pistols dont, i repeat, dont double the attacks. They add one extra attack per action (eg. Fullround<full attack). This means it can add upo to 2 attacks by taking -8 (penalties stack), before twf penalties.
Double muskets on the other hand do double the attacks, but they cant be dual weilded unless you use really weird combinations such as barbarian/gunslinger/fighter.
I agree double weapons ARE problematic, their rules are completely unclear, as of now there are 3 double firearms (Double Pistol, Double Musket, Double shotgun) and all of them use different rules, so I suspect two of them are typos or at least early discarded mechanics, personally i believe the 1 per action mechanic its the way its suppoused to work, since it works effectively as a toned down manyshot .
It also worth noting they increase the misfire chance. Its important noting this is a very limiting mechanic while its online at least. Double misfires means also double the number of chances of getting retroactively slowed, this means you wont get to full attack and also its the reason gunslingers have not fared that well on dpr olimpics.
Only lvl 13 musket master and pistolero break the barriers, that is to say you need to wait 8 almost dead levels, you dont get that many useful things past level 5 until you get to lvl 11 when you get signature deed. Most gunslinger would prefer to get real classfeatures than to wait 8 levels for 2 combat feats an a bunch of mostly useless deeds. But if you bear with that you get to get paid, its not as different as how many classses operate. However i would prefer the gunslinger was better rounded class with a real progression than to have ZOMG break points, which are specifically level 5(guntraining), level 11(signature deed) and level 13(Ignore misfire if pistolero/Musk. Master). The Gunslingers seems to be intentionally designed to be random and risky, high reward class. But it just gets it to be uncomprehended
@ElementalXX - I'm glad to see somebody admit that the double barreled weapons might be problematic or at least confusing. I think a simple ruling that the "double shot" can only be used as a standard action would be pretty helpful. The double shot would still be a useful trick for situations when you can't full attack, and having an extra barrel you can fire before reloading is a pretty nice feature to begin with.
It is true that the misfire chance doesn't go away until 13th level, but the highly vaunted Barbarian DPR boost from Come and Get Me doesn't come online until 12th level.
@wraithstrike - The OP's complaint was about a PC using multiple double barreled guns, so I think that including them in the discussion along with the Gunslinger class makes sense.
@ElementalXX - I'm glad to see somebody admit that the double barreled weapons might be problematic or at least confusing. I think a simple ruling that the "double shot" can only be used as a standard action would be pretty helpful. The double shot would still be a useful trick for situations when you can't full attack, and having an extra barrel you can fire before reloading is a pretty nice feature to begin with.
It is true that the misfire chance doesn't go away until 13th level, but the highly vaunted Barbarian DPR boost from Come and Get Me doesn't come online until 12th level.
@wraithstrike - The OP's complaint was about a PC using multiple double barreled guns, so I think that including them in the discussion along with the Gunslinger class makes sense.
Fair enough in that care the gunslinger being OP, and gunslingers with double barreled guns being OP should be two seperate topics. However
Jodokai is saying "gunslingers are OP".So I guess he can clarify what he actually meant when he gets back.
If the rule was not changed then it seems to be the same rule to me. I don't think the 3.5 volley rule exist as a general rule in Pathfinder at all. That is why manyshot specifically says only 1 arrow can crit. If there was a general rule that would not have to be called out.
2. I know. That is what I was saying. :)
@cnetarian - I’m aware of the post you referred to. After some investigation I felt that the extra d6s from Up Close and Deadly should probably only apply to one barrel of a double shot though some folks disagree. I wasn’t aware that flat bonuses to damage might not apply though. If so that would certainly bring the DPR back down from the clouds but also might make the standard action double shot at -4 to hit kind of a dud. That would be a shame since it seems like a fun option. I actually kind of like the idea of guns especially in regards to use by pirates. I just find the current implementation problematic. Honestly I've come to dislike touch attacks in general as they're too difficult to defend against without concealment, mirror images, etc (and even mirror images don't help much against somebody with 14 attacks per round)
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If somone has the quote or link it would be really helpfull, for all i know and have researched Stephen said that double Shots are separate attack rolls which lets me to believe they are just that , two attacks, which would also mean normal modifiers would apply. I might be wrong however, unfortunately gunslingers seem to be ignored almost every time an errata is asked for them.(example by strict raw you cant free action reload advanced weapons since rapid reload doesnt seem to apply to them) The only clarification was the double musket range, which ironically made it much more used, since it was usually an ignored weapon due to having 10ft of range.
I have been keeping up with the thread but not really wanting to post as it seems like an emotion filled war. If it is returning to the realm of sensible debate I would like to point out a couple of things:
1. I agree that the OP's statement was about a PC using double barreled pistols so a ruling on that would be most helpful both to the OP and to the current debate about it being OP. If there is not a ruling on this that exists (even in a playtest post by Devs) then there clearly needs to be as I believe this adds a lot of fire to the debate. Honestly, well deserved fire as that is a fairly large and abusable bump to DPR.
2. I believe that the basis of Judokai's argument is solid. I think a lot of people are getting hung up on how he makes his case. What it boils down to is that Gunslingers get to add Dex to damage on touch attack at range. If we compare this to what the Zen Archer can do (do we need to get in an argument about how OP they are?) then I can definitely understand his perspective.
Basically, Zen Archers get to add Wis to damage (guided weapon property) and get full attacks all day long at ridiculous range. They can tank Str and don't need Dex except for a passable Reflex save and more AC which they get anyway from Wis. But if we are talking about pure DPR being the issue, yeah... Zen Archers have that problem.
Gunslingers come out of the box with Dex to damage. They also only need to hit touch ACs. Only withhin the first range increment, of course. DPR Olympics tend to go with the most favorable conditions, though, so this limitation isn't typically considered. For actual play it should be. But then, that goes for melee fighters not always having the opportunity to full attack as well so for the point of discussion it is fairly moot if we are just talking about theoretical DPR calculations.
Basically, when comparing Zen Archers (which I think we agree are OP) to Gunslingers, the Gunslinger gives up superior range for being able to hit touch AC at shorter range. There is also the mitigating factor of misfires, but that can be circumvented. I think that when it is circumvented that it makes Gunslingers close to the same power as Zen Archers ... which, I believe the boards agree are OP.
All of what you say is correct.
...is anyone talking about singling out the Gunslingers? Perhaps I missed it.
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2. I believe that the basis of Judokai's argument is solid. I think a lot of people are getting hung up on how he makes his case. What it boils down to is that Gunslingers get to add Dex to damage on touch attack at range. If we compare this to what the Zen Archer can do (do we need to get in an argument about how OP they are?) then I can definitely understand his perspective.
2. I still dont understand what is his argument, at some point he said gunslinger are op because they do the most damage, this was proven false, then he said it was because of utilities. Maybe you could clarify what he meant
Basically, Zen Archers get to add Wis to damage (guided weapon property) and get full attacks all day long at ridiculous range. They can tank Str and don't need Dex except for a passable Reflex save and more AC which they get anyway from Wis. But if we are talking about pure DPR being the issue, yeah... Zen Archers have that problem.
Guided doesnt work on ranged weapons
A guided weapon may be wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to modify attack and damage rolls
It's meant for melee only, yes.Question about History of Ashes. Is the Guided property found in there melee only? I think it's around page 22, according to the archivesofnethys
And even if they do, basing your argument on the existance of a 3.5 custom adventure path enchantment is certaintly not enought to qualify a class as broken. Otherwise all arcane casters are broken because sacred geometry exists, at least sacred geometry is not 3.5.
And no the boards dont agree they are op (for gods sake, they are monks) they are not more op than any regular archer, even commoners can be archers, that doesnt make commoners op.
cnetarian: The OP didn't say that ONLY Gunslingers are too powerful. I do not think he was singling them out. There are several builds that are too powerful for a normal campaign.
I'm not sure that I easily dismissed misfires. I said that they can be circumvented.
ElementalXX: Did he say they did the "most" damage? Perhaps the most in his party.
Despite several threads on the topic and the question being asked directly to developers there has never been a ruling stating that Guided does not work on ranged weapons. There is nothing RAW stating that it doesn't work on ranged weapons.
And... even if guided is not allowed on ranged weapons due to a house rule a Zen Archer doesn't need it to be OP. One doesn't have it and he easily solos Beastmass. Last I checked I think the Zen Archer was 2nd in the DPR Olympics. And in actual game play that would likely hold up as he has great defenses and can full attack every turn.
I'll let you argue with the boards but I believe the community has spoken. If you disagree I would direct you to the appropriate threads. It is pretty well established.
boring7: I'm surprised that you share that opinion. I know that you are aware of the threads I linked. Even so the only additional thing I will say to you is that even with Pounce meleers still do not get to full attack every round. If their opponent is greater than a double move away then they do not get to attack at all. Archers do not have that problem. Neither do Gunslingers. One killed the Ancient Gold Dragon from 640 ft away, something a melee could not do.
Also, everyone hates Flippy. ;)
I do agree with your speculation on double barreled weapons.
Basically, when comparing Zen Archers (which I think we agree are OP) to Gunslingers, the Gunslinger gives up superior range for being able to hit touch AC at shorter range. There is also the mitigating factor of misfires, but that can be circumvented. I think that when it is circumvented that it makes Gunslingers close to the same power as Zen Archers ... which, I believe the boards agree are OP.
Zen Archers are not considered OP by most of the boards. They are in the very good category however, and since I am not working today, and tomorrow I will be building a gunslinger to see what happens. No, it will not be a double barreled anything, however I will be taking options to reduce reload time, and get rid of the misfire because that is what I would do in a real game. I will also look for ways to extend my range for touch attacks.
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Lune:
I doubt they will bother with an errata for an enchantment which was not meant to use in pathfinder.
Then, I dont understand why its broken if its not damage, anyway numbers are about to be run and it will be checked mathematically.
I was gonna answer about zen archers beign broken but so far since posters dont agree in it beign broken so i dont know where you get "everybody agrees its broken". I hope you dont refer to one´s lvl 20 test(which many builds have also taken and passed) , because at level 20 you just can wish monsters away or call a solar (or many) 4 the lulz, no need for dpr. Pretty sure almost all martials can solo a beastmass at level 20, Magical classes would just make them disappear and yeah they dont have the highest dpr.
1. I didn't say "broken".
2. BEING, not beign.
3. Man, had to get that outta my system, sorry. It actually took me a while to figure out what you were saying. FYI - people complain about a lot of things on these boards. Not everyone is here to say that something is the "worst" or "best" (depending on perspective, I guess). Something can be "too bad" or "too good" and people can complain about that too. I think that was what was being done here. I do not recall anyone claiming that "Gunslingers do the most damage out of anything". Maybe I'm wrong though, I'm sure that someone will be happy to step in and correct me if I am.
4. I understand that the attack touch AC thing is only within the first range increment normally. As I'm sure you are aware there are more than one ways to extend your range increment and to be able to attack touch AC at further than the first range increment.
5. I do not feel the burning need to continue to debate/prove One's worth. The work has already been done for me. I would rather refer you to the appropriate threads so you can argue there. Members of the boards who have been here from the beginning are there and you can feel free to measure their level of being impressed as much as you would like. Or not. I don't care. I haven't got anything to prove.
On that note, it does sound like people here DO have something to prove. So, like I said in another thread recently; if you feel you got something to prove, do it. Make a build. Stop talking theory and get down to the numbers. I applaud wraithstrike for doing just that. He is taking a fairly impartial approach and I trust his system mastery. I'll be happy to look at the numbers.
wraithstrike, while you are at it if you wouldn't mind comparing the Gunslinger to One at a few different levels. I think it shouldn't be hard being that all the work for One is already done. My guess is that they will be fairly comparable and that around level 13 that the Gunslinger will pull ahead slightly in DPR at shorter ranges. Then I am betting that One will pull ahead at most other levels.
The only thing I was ever really here for was to try to get people to open their minds a bit and get off a certain poster's case and take a step back and look at what he was saying. I don't think he was far off the mark, but we'll see. Personally, I think getting Dex to damage, being able to full attack frequently every round and attacking touch ACs seems powerful.
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Ok, I finally made a gunslinger(musketeer archetype)
Male human (taldan) gunslinger (musket master) 11 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 9, 50)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +14; Senses Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 16, flat-footed 21 (+7 armor, +2 deflection, +1 Dex, +3 dodge, +2 natural)
hp 103 (11d10+33)
Fort +12, Ref +16, Will +11
Defensive Abilities nimble +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee mwk rapier +12/+7/+2 (1d6/18-20)
Ranged +1 lucky reliable musket +18 (1d12+8/×4) or
. . mwk musket +18 (1d12+7/×4)
Special Attacks deeds (bleeding wound, dead shot, deadeye, expert loading, fast musket, gunslinger initiative,
lightning reload, pistol-whip, quick clear, startling shot, steady aim, targeting), grit (2)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +11; CMD 32
Feats Deadly Aim, Gunsmithing[UC], Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload,
Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +5 (+1 to jump), Bluff +14, Climb -1, Craft (alchemy) +4, Handle Animal +5, Heal +6, Intimidate
+14, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (local) +4, Perception +21, Sleight of Hand +4, Survival +12, Swim +1
Languages Common
SQ dare (), gunsmith, musket training
Other Gear +3 mithral shirt, +1 lucky reliable musket, alchemical cartridge (paper) (100), mwk musket,
mwk rapier, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +3,
eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, ring of protection +2, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel,
gunsmith's kit, hemp rope (50 ft.), mess kit, pot, powder horn, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 15,854 gp
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Special Abilities
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Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Grit (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on firearm crit/killing blow.
Gunsmithing You can use a gunsmithing kit to craft/repair firearms and ammo.
Musket Training (+7, misfire value -2) (Ex) Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-
handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed
firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Ev
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Musket) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Reload (Musket) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Since this is only for DPR I still have about 15000 GP left over
I took rapid reload and the alchemical cartridges so I can reload as a free action.
I took reliable and lucky as enhancements to cut down on misfire being a factor.
Touch AC tends to suck at every part of the game so barring certain creatures it wont really be high.
I will be using touch AC of 9 to 13 as the average range, and I will find a few higher touch AC monsters that the gunslinger.
In the end I did not even go past touch AC 10. You will see why at the end.
I will also provide DPR for when the gunslinger can not bypass DR.
Now since I have a pretty good understanding of the rules, but this is my first build I think I am a fair candidate.
All of the below will assume point blank shot and a crit range of 19-20
Touch AC 9 57.43 <---not impressive.
Touch AC 9 with rapid shot 76.57<----A lot better
Touch AC 9 with rapid shot and deadly aim 102.2 <---Good numbers, but not broken at level 11 128.57(hasted)
vs DR 5 with rapid shot and deadly aim 78.29
vs DR 10 with rapid shot and deadly aim 54.57
vs DR 15 not many CR 11 monsters have this, but it might be in a boss fight 30.84
Since this is the best AC for the gunslinger I may or may not continue the analysis of DR.
Lets see what AC 10 does.
This time I won't even bother with not using rapid shot
Touch AC 10 with rapid shot 73.55
Touch AC 10 with rapid shot and deadly aim 102.02
I am not even going to use an elder air elemental. I will used a CR 11 barbed devil which has DR/good 10 and touch AC of 16.
First I will assume the gunslinger has a way to bypass DR good. Then I will run the numbers without a way to bypass DR.
We will assume that rapid shot and deadly aim are in play here.
DPR (bypassing DR) 93.63
DPR(not bypassing DR) 50.08
My conclusion is that the gunslinger has good damage, but not OMG damage.
That means the class is not broken and the problem is with the guns(double barreled) and abilities that allow you to use reload them as free actions, if there is a problem at all.
I do see how doing a large(one rounding CR+1 opponents) amount of damage is something many GM's will not like, but in that case certain barbarian and paladin builds would cause problems also.
As for the broken claim, well I don't know if the boards have a consensus on how much damage is too much damage. I guess it all depends on whether or not you think one-rounding APL=CR opponents should be a thing.
If you think that is a problem then the benchmark is in a table in the bestiary.
If you think it is not a problem then maybe your bar is at CR+2. I have played with both types of tables, and I still think "broken" is defined at the table you are playing at.
I will continue to hold that stance until we as a whole come to a consensus about how much is too much.
edit: Since I have played archers at around 30 feet and not been charged to my death, then I think the musket having a range of 40 make me safe enough to not worry about being too close for comfort.
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A couple of recomendations.
Lucky is not a really good enchantment for a gunslinger the aplications of grit are at most limited and grit is not that difficult to recover. Flaming or frost could add a little more to the dpr. Im not really sure if its optimal but for this excercise however since calculating misfires could be problematic (Im not good at theoretical game mathematics). Illl leave this post which has a good analisis of misfires for reference.
So what you do is you take 10% on the first attack. This means 90% of the time you will get a second attack 10% of that 90% is 9 so 19% of the time you will have a misfire by your second attack. this leaves 81% of the time you will get a third attack, 10% of that is 8.1 so 27.1% of the time you will have a misfire by the end of your third attack, this leaves 72.9% of the time you will get your fourth attack, 10% off that again means 7.29 putting us up to a misfire by your fourth attack chance of 34.39%.You remember critical fumbles? Always happen on a 1? The probabilities for this are the same, but doubled (since it starts at 2).
Now remember a misfire means you missed the attack.
So we have:
10% chance misfire first shot. No attacks land
19% chance of a misfire by the second shot. 1 attack lands at most
27.1% chance of a misfire by the third shot. 2 attacks land at most
34.39% chance of a misfire by fourth shot. 3 attacks land at most
40.951% chance of a misfire by the fifth shot. 4 attacks land at mostIF you have a misfire on the first shot you can quick clear for 1 grit to have a full attack action on the next round (since you can change to a standard action attack and then spend grit to take a move action clear).
A misfire on any other shot means you cannot full attack on the following round -- you need either a standard action to quick clear or to spend grit and take a move action. Either way you have an upwards limit of 1 shot on that round with a 10% misfire rate.
This only takes into account a normal pistol and simple paper cartridges, if they have a double pistol those numbers increase by 50% each. Same with a pepperbox (which is a nice choice for early gunslingers since it gives you time between reloads and can delay the use of rapid reload early on).
I think a good reference for damage is the Dpr olimpics, i think the current winner is the paladin archer while smiting altought i may be wrong
I really think lucky should be a flat price instead of a +1 but that is another conversation.
One thing I don't like about the gunslinger is the jamming of the gun. I would rather they have made up for it somewhere else in the mechanics.
Lucky only saves me once per day, so I agree that is not worth it, in hindsight. I misread it the first time around.
I changed it out for some elemental damage.
That means that vs AC 10 the DPR is 114.79 for an increase of about 12, but I did not account for misfires, which should dramatically affect DPR unless someone knows how to quick clear as a free action or make it so that misfiring never happens.
I am trying to find out how much these percentages would affect DPR. If I find the formula online I will apply it.
Zen Archers are not considered OP by most of the boards.
Basically, when comparing Zen Archers (which I think we agree are OP) to Gunslingers, the Gunslinger gives up superior range for being able to hit touch AC at shorter range. There is also the mitigating factor of misfires, but that can be circumvented. I think that when it is circumvented that it makes Gunslingers close to the same power as Zen Archers ... which, I believe the boards agree are OP.
This is the complete opposite of truth. Archery in general is mind bogglingly OP. The boards totally know this. Wraithstrike, this is nothing personal, but your comments consistently reveal a heavy optimization slant. If you say something is "in the very good category" that is a blazing red flag signal to me as a GM that I don't want that thing in my games. If you think something is "very good" but not OP, then my mind immediately understands that to mean that the thing in question is completely out of the stratosphere wacked out powerful.
It's really not personal. It's not just you. The thing is, mega optimizers in general compare everything against the best possible thing in order to determine whether the thing in question is "OP." I understand your logic. It makes sense, in a way. But I think it's an absolutely destructive way to view the game, and one that ensures you won't be able to play with anyone that thinks differently, and will constantly be stuck in a weirdly elitist view of the rules, either not realizing or not caring that your methods ultimately serve to stifle build diversity. Instead of comparing X thing against the most optimal thing, compare it instead against the mean power level of most of the stuff in the game. A thing is OP if it is far more powerful than most of the stuff in the game, not just if it is nearly as powerful as the very most powerful things in the game.
By the way, did I just miss it, or is everyone ignoring the fact that the Ricochet Shot feat basically means that optimized gun fighters are always attacking touch AC and ignoring cover, out to about 200 feet?
Finally, just to be clear: archers and gunslingers are well and truly overpowered, and this fact is widely known.
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Finally, just to be clear: archers and gunslingers are well and truly overpowered, and this fact is widely known.
You are highly mistaken. I don't know any posters that understand the game that agree with this.
It is better than melee, but that does not make it OP.
Nobody has ever proven that ranged characters are OP, and even among those that think so there is no consistent thought about why it is OP.
Just to be clear OP to me is too good for most groups, not "too good for my group", which is a problem some people have. If it does not fit their style of play then it is "wrong".
If something is going to be objectively true instead of subjectively true, then it must be proven to do so.
How much damage should a level 11 character be able to do on average?
As far as your "OP" statement that is a moving line since more things means that the average power increases, and maybe some of the things on the lower end are just not good enough. The things I say are "ok" are normally ok in most games. Some thing's like the summoner are problematic, for reasons that make them broken to some, but not really OP. Being OP and broken are not always the same thing.
PS: I don't take your statement personally. Everyone is welcome to their own ideas of what is a good power(optimization) view of the game.
edit: I don't mega-optimize. I have the ability to do so, but I don't. I also said not to use the best builds as a point of comparison for this conversation so I don't know how that statement of " compare everything against the best possible thing in order to determine whether the thing in question is "OP."" applies to me at all.
A thing is OP if it is far more powerful than most of the stuff in the game, not just if it is nearly as powerful as the very most powerful things in the game.
By the way, did I just miss it, or is everyone ignoring the fact that the Ricochet Shot feat basically means that optimized gun fighters are always attacking touch AC and ignoring cover, out to about 200 feet?
1. How are you defining power?
2. I don't know. I have never looked at the feat until now.
Ricochet Shot Deed (Grit)
You can ricochet a firearm shot off the wall and still hit your target.Prerequisite: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Blind-Fight.
Benefit: You can fire a shot at a wall or piece of solid terrain, and have it ricochet off. When you do, use the square immediately in front of the wall or piece of solid terrain to determine line of sight to a target, and this square is considered the new origin square of the attack. Use that square to determine the effects of cover, and your own square to determine the effects of concealment. You can make this shot as long as you have at least 1 grit point. When making this shot, you can spend 1 grit point to ignore the effects of all cover or concealment. You must choose to spend the grit point before you make the attack roll.
Where does it say the deed(not feat) allows you to target touch AC at 200 feet?
There is also a spell with the same name, but it does not do what you describe either.
He's reading it as range is from the origin of the shot. If the origin of the shot is within the first range increment to the target he is suggesting it should be treated as if it was in the first range increment when it was fired.
The language on that deed is filthy and very prone to opinions such as that.
He's reading it as range is from the origin of the shot. If the origin of the shot is within the first range increment to the target he is suggesting it should be treated as if it was in the first range increment when it was fired.
The language on that deed is filthy and very prone to opinions such as that.
Ok, I see how it could be read that way now.
However I see " Use that square to determine the effects of cover, and your own square to determine the effects of concealment. " as it meaning that is all that is determined from that "new square". It is worth an FAQ.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Finally, just to be clear: archers and gunslingers are well and truly overpowered, and this fact is widely known.
There is so much wrong with your post and this line in particular I don't even know where to start. I guess all I can say is:
Nope.
Ranged builds and archery in general are some of the most consistent, well-balanced builds in the game. They react consistently to almost all threats, have predictable strengths/weaknesses and dish out enough damage to remain at least competitive with other methods of ending combat.
When people complain about single target damage potential I know they haven't even begun to understand the nature of 'broken' in this game. You could make a character who did a million damage with a standard action and they STILL wouldn't be the most broken thing.
wraithstrike: Thank you for posting the build. Personally, I dislike black powder technology in my fantasy games. Many of the people I game with agree and only in my most recent game has anyone tried it. We are all just now exploring how powerful it is. I have never personally even looked into building one. As such I do not have a lot of further advice on the build.
So... how does this compare to One at the same level? What is the measuring stick we are using to declare what is considered "OP single target damage" appropriate for this level?
Personal experience shows me that thus far damage seems to be comparable to most damage focused archers. My son is playing a Zen Archer 3/Weapon Master 4/Sorcerer 1 with plans on going into Arcane Archer. They pull similar damage even considering misfires. The archer does better at greater range while the Gunslinger tends to have more options at closer range. The archer has an ungodly Perception check and can easily hit DCs in the 50s despite us being at level 7 currently. So noticing things at great range hasn't been a problem for us (except when he is blinded, which blows).
Even so, I tend to agree with Erick Wilson. In fact, I think if I dug for it that I could find several posts from the nay-sayers in here stating that they believe that damage based archers tend to be fairly high on the DPR meters. DPR meters are often misleading because not everyone gets to always get a full attack in. But for archers, DPR meters are actually normally a pretty fair gauge of their typical performance in play because they typically do get to full attack and often when other melee builds do not have that option at all.
This is widely known. Erick is correct. No one is saying that there aren't other things that can end encounters better (like most full casters). But that isn't what the DPR olympics are about. It isn't what this thread is about. Its not even what is being debated here. People ARE talking about single target DPS. That IS the topic.
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Finally, just to be clear: archers and gunslingers are well and truly overpowered, and this fact is widely known.
Wow... the thread turned into "ranged combat is broken". What kind of far realm is this? I dont even know what to say. Aparentely now fighters are broken, jeez... I dont wanna live in this planet anymore.
This is widely known. Erick is correct.
I really think you should start backing up your statements about "general opinion of the internet" because you are starting to sound a little bit arbitrary...
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He's reading it as range is from the origin of the shot. If the origin of the shot is within the first range increment to the target he is suggesting it should be treated as if it was in the first range increment when it was fired.
The language on that deed is filthy and very prone to opinions such as that.
Ok, I see how it could be read that way now.
However I see " Use that square to determine the effects of cover, and your own square to determine the effects of concealment. " as it meaning that is all that is determined from that "new square". It is worth an FAQ.
To be fair almost all of the grit feats are worth a faq and some complete rewrite.(the feat intensive leaping shot lets you make 2 attacks as a fullround action, makes you prone and spends grit, wtf?) As a note you spend grit per attack to use ricochet shot, so is next to impossible to do a full attack at 200 ft as someone suggested and its completely impossible to keep at it all day.
So... how does this compare to One at the same level? What is the measuring stick we are using to declare what is considered "OP single target damage" appropriate for this level?
In my opinion OP is a table decision. However if others disagree they have to say what is OP for them. I am guessing that one rounding CR=APL opponents will be the answer. However standard archer and gunslingers cant do that.
Personal experience shows me that thus far damage seems to be comparable to most damage focused archers.
That is why anecdotal evidence should not be used. It can be influenced by bias.
The archer has an ungodly Perception check and can easily hit DCs in the 50s despite us being at level 7 currently. So noticing things at great range hasn't been a problem for us (except when he is blinded, which blows).
Perception is not an archer ability.
With that aside how does a level 7 character have a +45 modifier.
Even so, I tend to agree with Erick Wilson. In fact, I think if I dug for it that I could find several posts from the nay-sayers in here stating that they believe that damage based archers tend to be fairly high on the DPR meters. DPR meters are often misleading because not everyone gets to always get a full attack in. But for archers, DPR meters are actually normally a pretty fair gauge of their typical performance in play because they typically do get to full attack and often when other melee builds do not have that option at all.
Archers are not the most damaging with regard to DPR. They do get to full attack more. Is that the problem you have with archers?
No one is saying that there aren't other things that can end encounters better (like most full casters). But that isn't what the DPR olympics are about. It isn't what this thread is about. Its not even what is being debated here. People ARE talking about single target DPS. That IS the topic.
I have been focused on DPR the entire time. Another postet tried to use utility as a factor, not me.
wraithstrike, really? C'mon.
First you avoided answering the question. (How does this compare to One at the same level?)
Also, your build got pretty close to one round killing CR=APL. It could do it depending on what CR11 it is up against or if depending on if he rolled high.
I stated that my personal experience was flawed in that I do not have a lot of personal play experience with Gunslingers. I agree about anecdotal evidence. I was simply stating what I personally had experienced.
Perception is a Zen Archer ability. Well, a skill actually. That is mostly because it is a class skill for Monks. You know this, I know. Why you would argue it is beyond me. I posted the build in the very thread you are quoting.
For the record, this is how he obtained it:
7 ranks +8 Wis (he got lucky and got a +4 tome and bought a +2 headband) +5 competence (Eyes of the Eagle) +2 racial (Elf, Keen Senses) = 22
He has a Spyglass.
Spyglass: Objects viewed through a spyglass are magnified to twice their size. Characters using a spyglass take a –1 penalty on Perception skill checks per 20 feet of distance to the target, if the target is visible.
So that halves the penalty for viewing at a distance. At a range of 600 ft. that would be a +30 bonus, or a -30 to the DC. Whichever way you want to look at it, it is a swing of 30. The bonus (negative to the DC) goes up the further away they are.
22+30=52. It is good for archers to spot things coming from 600ft away. He hasn't even really invested heavily in perception outside of the ranks in the skill. Everything else was found aside from the headband which he bought. Since he is our scout he uses that spyglass frequently, too. But I'm glad you asked. ;)
I do not have a specific problem with archers or Gunslingers (aside from thematically as I dislike black powder in my fantasy). The statement that they get to full attack more is simply fact. As I said, DPR meters do not take into account that you wont always be able to full attack with a melee. But with an archer (or gunslinger) you will typically be able to so the numbers are more accurate to actual game play than they are for melee.
And the last part you quoted wasn't directed at you, it was directed at Blakmane's statement that, "When people complain about single target damage potential I know they haven't even begun to understand the nature of 'broken' in this game." That statement isn't really relevant to what is being discussed in this thread. DPR was being compared. I probably should have specified. My bad.
I think you must be tired. I'll give you a do-over on that post. heh
wraithstrike, really? C'mon.
Yes really.
First you avoided answering the question. (How does this compare to One at the same level?)Also, your build got pretty close to one round killing CR=APL. It could do it depending on what CR11 it is up against or if depending on if he rolled high.
Yes, but close does not count, and the monster is either alive or it is not. If a monster is alive with one hit point, it still gets to full attack you or do other bad things to you. If the archer/gun slinger/two-handed fighter takes two rounds because it does 70% and another 70%, or it does 50% and 50% the result is still that it takes two rounds to take a creature out. I can't say ___ is OP because it is not my place to judge someone else's table.
I stated that my personal experience was flawed in that I do not have a lot of personal play experience with Gunslingers. I agree about anecdotal evidence. I was simply stating what I personally had experienced.
I was stating that because I had a player who constantly rolled nat 20's. If I were to go by what I saw at my table fighters would be one of the greatest classes ever.
Yes, I am aware that you are not disagreeing with me, but some that are reading this, needed to see this.
What do I mean by constantly? I don't think he ever went 3 fights without one crit, and not it was not his dice. He used my dice, and got the same results. Weapon of choice was a dwarven waraxe.
Perception is a Zen Archer ability. Well, a skill actually. That is mostly because it is a class skill for Monks. You know this, I know. Why you would argue it is beyond me. I posted the build in the very thread you are quoting.
I brought it up because it read as if you were saying the "archer" caused the perception to be so high. You may not have meant it that way, but some will read it that way.
For the record, this is how he obtained it:** spoiler omitted **
I don't really see that as a +30 bonus because it is not always available. It is a reduction for a penalty which may give the same results, but is not the same thing. Technically you could say the "bonus" was infinite if you want to view it as a bonus.
I do not have a specific problem with archers or Gunslingers (aside from thematically as I dislike black powder in my fantasy). The statement that they get to full attack more is simply fact. As I said, DPR meters do not take into account that you wont always be able to full attack with a melee. But with an archer (or gunslinger) you will typically be able to so the numbers are more accurate to actual game play than they are for melee.And the last part you quoted wasn't directed at you, it was directed at Blakmane's statement that, "When people complain about single target damage potential I know they haven't even begun to understand the nature of 'broken' in this game." That statement isn't really relevant to what is being discussed in this thread. DPR was being compared. I probably should have specified. My bad.
I think you must be tired. I'll give you a do-over on that post. heh
I agreed with the full attack statement. I was just asking if that was why you thought they were OP. :)
For melee types they normally only miss the full attack on the first round. Yes, I am aware that in the game this means an archer will do more damage, even if the melee types have more damage potential.
Now those that disagree with me are probably wondering what I do not allow. Well, if I can't do it to a player and feel like it is ok then I won't allow it in a game. That is why pummeling style will probably not be used as is. I really don't care for clustered shots either, but it has not made it onto my "do not allow list", but that is because archers really did not need the extra help.
PS: By archers(for this post) I also mean dedicated ranged attacks to include crossbow specialist that are built well. I have not tried to crate any throwing builds yet, but I am curious as to how they will do.
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7 ranks +8 Wis (he got lucky and got a +4 tome and bought a +2 headband) +5 competence (Eyes of the Eagle) +2 racial (Elf, Keen Senses) = 22
It does look that the problem is the dm more than anyhting else.
I do not have a specific problem with archers or Gunslingers (aside from thematically as I dislike black powder in my fantasy).
This kinda of doesnt add up.
At a range of 600 ft....
Yeah... how many combats have you had at 600 ft?. Actually how many APs encounters exist which cover 600fT ? Im guesssing your dungeons must be very big or you must have a really really big combat mat.
As I said, DPR meters do not take into account that you wont always be able to full attack with a melee.
They do not count a number of things, from cover, evasion, grapples, pounce, teleportation, attacks of oportunity, surprise rounds, traps, social encounters, survivavility, reloading times, feat burning, multiclassing, magic, stealth etc.
That statement isn't really relevant to what is being discussed in this thread. DPR was being compared.
Actually if only dpr is beign compared, its over, the barb wins in this department. Now if you have complaints about ranged mechanics then thats another topic.
I can't say ___ is OP because it is not my place to judge someone else's table.
Oh, but you can say when something ISN'T OP? Because you just did that...
I just want to know what your measuring stick is. It isn't a hard question.
Regarding the Perception check: you asked a question, I gave an answer. It is all legal. Your opinion on whether it counts or not is irrelevant. The point I was making stands. He could make a DC that is normally DC50 consistently.
Whether or not the DM was overly generous or not is also irrelevant (referring to ElementalXX's comments). Even if the character didn't have the tome that would only drop his Perception check by 2 points. He would still be making those DC50 checks at 600ft range without real issue. By the way, our party's average wealth by level is peachy. As I said, he got lucky. Being that the character is frequently flying around on his Roc as our scout he frequently spots things at great distance. It is invaluable to the party and we have had a few long range fights. We do not play APs. Not all people play endless dungeon crawls. Occasionally our adventurers walk (/fly) around outside.
ElementalXX: I do not have a mechanical problems with Gunslingers or archers. I only have a thematic problem with Gunslingers as I dislike black powder technology in my fantasy games. Sorry if that wasn't made perfectly clear earlier. Looking back, it makes perfect sense how I stated it but I can see that you are nitpicking what I say to try to find a logical fallacy for some reason. Also, I think you may have missed the word "aside" in there before. It was between the "I do not have a specific problem with archers or Gunslingers (" and the "from thematically as I dislike black powder in my fantasy)."
"BEING" ... not "beign".
I can't say ___ is OP because it is not my place to judge someone else's table.Oh, but you can say when something ISN'T OP? Because you just did that...
When someone says something is OP they are normally saying it is OP in general(most games). I do have the right to make such a statement so until I see proof I will say it is not OP. Most people I see on the boards that I know have good system mastery don't see it as OP. Many times when I see "X is OP" it is because a rule is used incorrectly or they expect for level 8 characters to only put out 15 points of damage. <---No, I am not making that up. Someone actually said that. Sometimes they just have a personal bias for whatever reason against X which does not help when X is not being ran correctly by the rules. It also does not help when someone plays a monster to less than its full potential and then complains about it getting its but kicked. Yes the monster may be CR 17, but if you don't use it well, it may only be equal to a CR 14 or CDR 15. So when I see objective proof that something is a problem, and the rules are being used correctly then I have no problem saying it is a problem.
I just want to know what your measuring stick is. It isn't a hard question.
How much DPR is too much DPR?
If I am running a highly optimized game then being able to one round a CR=APL opponent is ok. I would hope they go no higher than APL+1. If they do however it does not really bother me.
If I am running a more relaxed game then being able to one round an APL=CR opponent should be the high mark.
I don't really care if players have easy fights. The only fights I normally try to make difficult are boss fights, and every once in a while I might throw in a difficult non-boss fight.
So which type of game do I prefer to run?
Well a non-optimized group is easier to run for, but I don't mind the other game because it lets me know what is possible in an actual game, not just what happens when I theory-craft or read things on the boards. Often the strategy used that I did not expect is the deciding factor more so than some crazy(subjective) amount of damage.
Regarding the Perception check: you asked a question, I gave an answer. It is all legal. Your opinion on whether it counts or not is irrelevant. The point I was making stands. He could make a DC that is normally DC50 consistently.
I understand that. I was just clearing up the presentation of said information.
@ the throwing build comment: I had a mind blank moment yesterday. I knew there was a reason I did not like that blink belt too much, and I could not remember what it was. I might just houserule returning weapons to come back instantly. This is another topic however.
Going back to my gunslinger build which as a DPR of 102 assuming no misfires after asking for help on an online forum I was provided with a formula.
Once misfires are included the gunslinger's DPR drops to 79.4253825, and that assumes rapidshot, deadly aim, and point blank aim are in play since they are what allowed it to go to 102.
That is a 23 point drop.
If you misfire on the 4th attack you will also get about 79 DPR however this will not happen every turn. Sometimes you will get an entire full round action and other times you will misfire on the 2nd or 3rd attack.
People then to have selective or baised memory when it comes to numbers. I certainly don't remember rolling as many 19's and 20's on attack rolls as I do 1's and 2's, but I also tend to roll more nat 20's on skill checks. I would like to think that is an anomaly, but then again I do tend to play skilled characters so it is more likely for me to make more attack rolls than attack rolls.
Well, I guess now I know where all my combat nat 20's are going.
PS: I was typing as I was thinking.
PS2: I still have 15000 more gold for that gunslinger. If anyone has anything to add let me know.
edit: I forgot the elemental damage change I made takes it to 114.79
After the misfire it drops to 89.3786985. A drop of about 25 DPR.
with 15,ooo GP left I'd upgrade the belt to +4 dexterity, giving +1 to hit & +1 to damage and making the left over cash 3,ooo GP.
I had the 3rd and 4th attack as being one to high, but your recommendation pushed the DPR to 119.54. That is high if there is ever a way to remove the misfire chance for this build.
After the misfires it is 93.0732075. A loss of about 26 DPR
I would personally suggest acid or electricity to avoid coming up against some monster that is immune or highly resistant to the elemental damage.
Haste pushed this to 153.93
Misfire being calculated 113.7
Now this is interesting.
A comparable fighter without haste pulls in at 88.91
haste 119.52.
What happens if the fighter takes improved critical?
130.38
Now I did not stat this fighter out.
I assumed 18 dex including the racial bonus
14 starting strength
+4 belt for dex
+2 ioun stone for strength
all weapon focus and weapon specialization feats which are common for a fighter.
Gloves of dueling which can be afford by level 11.
Now this might mean I can't afford the belt at +4 so it can be dropped to a 2. Maybe I need to assume a +2 belt of dex and no ioun stone to get the gloves since he would have similar equipment to the gunslinger.
That is a -2 for attacks, and a -1 for damage. I also noticed that I did not include manyshot.
Yeah, I did use the weapon master archetype, but I also had the musketmaster for the gunslinger. If I go to the base gunslinger vs the base fighter I am sure the fighter will do more damage.
Now the fighter is down to 114.75 with haste, slightly ahead of the misfiring gunslinger.
A ranger going against a favored enemy, smiting paladin or some melee based build can do better.
So it seems the problem is not that the gunslinger does too much damage since melee builds have more DPR potential. The problem is that melee builds are easier to slow down. <---I am guessing here, but I am not sure. I guess someone will chime in later on..
For anyone wishing to respond the topic is the gunslinger's DPR.
edit: I forgot to account for manyshot. Standby
edit 2: With manyshot 137.7
Since I have more free time let's see what a normal fighter would do by dropping a +1 from attack and damage from weapon training.
Normal fighter says 123.73. Of course this is all with haste.
If someone wishes to do a normal(no archetype gunslinger) go ahead. I think the numbers will drop by a pretty good percentage.
Now if the devs rule that you can indeed double the number of attacks with double barreled weapons then I can see how the numbers can make GM's not want to allow certain builds.
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Whether or not the DM was overly generous or not is also irrelevant [...]By the way, our party's average wealth by level is peachy [...]
Yeah.. no, its not irrelevant, your example is gimped and will be discarded. Actually your example is irrelevant.
As I said, he got lucky. Being that the character is frequently flying around on his Roc as our scout he frequently spots things at great distance.
Wait, how did he get a roc? did he multiclassed ranger/druid? That hurts a lot his flurry progression. Im hoping is not more Dm fiat. Is he the same guy who is cool with Guided Bows?
We do not play APs. Not all people play endless dungeon crawls. Occasionally our adventurers walk (/fly) around outside.
Looks like you dont know much about aps, they are never endless dungeon crawls
ElementalXX: I do not have a mechanical problems with Gunslingers or archers.
Are you admiting gunslingers and archers are balanced? That would be an improvement.
I only have a thematic problem with Gunslingers as I dislike black powder technology in my fantasy games. Sorry if that wasn't made perfectly clear earlier. Looking back, it makes perfect sense how I stated it but I can see that you are nitpicking what I say to try to find a logical fallacy for some reason.
However it does make you look biased
"BEING" ... not "beign".
Chill your grammar nazism
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Stuff
With 15000 gp there is not much you can do besides upgrading your dex. In order to get more damage you would need multiclass urban barbarian or fighter, this is why multiclassing is highly prized by gunslingers. Almost all gunslingers builds prefer multiclass, except pistoleros since they compensate it with signature up close and deadly. For instance gatling the minuscule dips in fighter and wild urban barbarian to get weapon training, more dex and more attacks.