Stunted Spell Lists, and Why They're Bad

[Neo2151]

Indulge me a moment?
Let's take a look at the Greenrager archetype for the Bloodrager class.
The whole point of this archetype is to turn the Bloodrager into a mini-summoner. You gain Summon Nature's Ally 1-4, and the things you summon gain bonuses depending on your level.

My question - who cares?

Unless you need a summon for a utility feature (flying, burrowing, etc.) then the summons available to you are trash by the time you can actually summon them.
A Greenrager is level 13 before he can cast SNA4. From what I can see, Tiger is the best option on the list.
A CR4 animal.
Even with the bonuses you give it, how does it not get one or two-shot by the enemies you are going to be facing at level 13+? Answer: It always does. If you are lucky, it gets it a single attack routine. If you are even more lucky, it manages to land a few attacks. And then it's dead.

The entire point of an archetype defeated simply because it's focus came too late in the leveling career. Really?

This extends far beyond Greenrager too.
Look at the Fire Shield spell. It's a pretty weak option for a spell even when you can cast it as at Wizard-levels (level 7, in case you were wondering). So in what world is it a good option to take when you have to wait until character level 13 to cast it as a Bloodrager, when it wasn't even a very solid option 5 levels prior?

And the argument extends to all classes saddled with stunted spell lists:
Hunter
Shaman
Skald
Warpriest

Case in point: There is a reason Paladins aren't stuck with a stunted Cleric list.
There is a reason why Rangers aren't stuck with a stunted Druid list.
There is a reason why Bards aren't stuck with a stunted Sorcerer list.
There is a reason why Magi aren't stuck with a stunted Wizard list.
There is a reason why Summoner isn't stuck with a stunted Sorcerer list.
There is a reason why Inquisitor isn't stuck with a stunted Cleric list.
Why don't the new classes get the same consideration?

[-Grijm-]

The only way I can find some limited use of the Summoning is to mix it up with the Metamagic Rager for the swift summoning of a flanking partner.

But yeah, otherwise it really do suck.

[kestral287]

Magi kind of are stuck with a stunted Wizard list (I think they get about three spells that Wizards don't and certainly get nothing at a lower level). But that's not the point, because they don't have it nearly as bad as the Greenrager. Greenrager got screwed pretty hard.

I'm not sure that the Warpriest or Hunter did though. Sure, neither one can effectively Summon, but they can use the vast majority of the lists just fine-- and Hunter also gets the Ranger's spells before the Ranger does, so you can now argue that the Ranger has a stunted spell list.

Haven't taken a close enough look at the Skald or Shaman lists though.

[LessPopMoreFizz]

Hunter undermines (or maybe proves) your own argument here.

The Hunter gets access to both the Ranger and Druid spell lists, and for spells that are on both, the Hunter gets them at whichever one puts the spell at a lower level.

That means, for example, that it's the only class in the game that can cast Resist Energy at level 1, which can be really strong, as well as getting access to Ranger goodies like Gravity Bow and Lead Blades right out of the gate.

But yes, Summoning Spells in particular are really lame on any class that doesn't have some amount of adjustment built in to account for fewer spell levels. Especially when they don't have a spell list from level 1.

[Neo2151]

I'm willing to concede the point on the Hunter list. (There's plenty of other things that make the class horrible, after all. ;) )

However, the other classes still apply. :)

[UnArcaneElection]

Haven't had a chance to do a full evaluation of the Shaman spell list, but they are full 9/9 casters, and at least SOME of the spells seem okay -- at a very rough guess, probably overall approximately comparable to the Druid spell list, with each having some advantages over the other (for instance: Druid advantage = Summon Nature's Ally series; Shaman advantage = Protection/Magic Circle against {Alignment}, Restoration series, Resurrection, and earlier access to Regeneration and the higher parts of the Cure/Inflict Wounds series). Maybe we'll know more when somebody posts a guide for the Shaman (right now the Zenith Games Guide to the Guides has a link, but it is a catalog to help you find stuff, which, while potentially useful, is not a guide), since making a proper guide requires a fair amount of analysis (which probably benefits from the catalog, so the catalog posted there might be a useful precursor). One thing I did notice is that the Shaman doesn't have the Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally series of spells, even though the list does have the Planar Ally series and a few miscellaneous summoning spells. I looked briefly through the Spirits listed in the Shaman PRD entry, and the only one that gives a full set is the Nature Spirit when selecting the Friend to the Animals Hex. Other exceptions are Summon Nature's Ally VII in the bonus spells of the Mammoth spirit, and Summon Monster V (Fire Elementals only) in the bonus spells of the Flame spirit. (By the way, when a bonus spell says something like "Fire Elementals only", do they mean true elementals only, or do other Elementals with the appropriate Elemental subtype qualify?)

[kestral287]

The problem with the Greenrager is that it tried to build around the spells hit the worst by restricted spell levels (Summons). For other spells it's less of a problem.

For example, the Magus takes things a step further than most of these, as it has a Wizard/Sorcerer list scaled down in scope and then with levels 7-9 lopped off (and then about three spells added back in). This includes a great many spells that would be very, very useful for them (The Magus gets only about half of the Touch spells of the Wizard/Sorcerer). But the Magus seemed to have escaped your notice-- why is that?

The answer I figure as most likely is "because the Magus can work well with what it has", which is true-- and is more significant than a spell list being inherently "stunted". "Does it work" is really the relevant question. For the Greenrager, it does not.

Compare the Warpriest, which has an objectively better list than the Magus by virtue of getting the full Cleric list for levels 1-6. There are things they can't do well-- Summon is at the top of the list. But most things slot in relatively nicely anyway.

The Bloodrager is somewhere in between, for the most part they have an abbreviated Sorcerer/Wizard list but they get some oddball spells that aren't normally available-- Ironskin is kind of awesome as Barkskin-on-crack, for example. And there are a handful of spells that anyone else would have a much harder time using-- Tremor Blast, for example. On the flip side, they get screwed in a couple places-- Slow bumped back to 4th, for example. It's a mixed bag. Does it work for them?

I don't know, as I've yet to play a Bloodrager, but I haven't seen many complaints so I'd assume so.

[Thymus Vulgaris]

How does the Skald suffer a stunted spell list? They share the bard's spell list and get the same spells at the same levels. The only way they have a "stunted" spell list is with Spell Kenning, but that's in addition to their normal spell list and it gives them huge flexibility.

[Ascalaphus]

The bloodrager is doing fine. Half of its spell list is useless, but the other half is excellent. And since they have limited spells known, that's all that matters.

[Neo2151]

Re: Skald and Shaman
I could have sworn these were not getting their full lists, but it seems I remembered wrong. :/

Re: Magus
I've never personally played one, but I noticed they get their own spell list and figured it was broken down for them much like the Summoner's is. If that's not the case and it's still mostly just a copy/paste of the Sor/Wis list at the same spell levels, then yeah, that one's a problem too.

Re Bloodrager
If half the spell list is useless, then something has gone wrong, either with the class, or with the spells. Personally, I think it's both.

[Marroar Gellantara]

Neo2151 wrote:

Re: Magus

I've never personally played one, but I noticed they get their own spell list and figured it was broken down for them much like the Summoner's is. If that's not the case and it's still mostly just a copy/paste of the Sor/Wis list at the same spell levels, then yeah, that one's a problem too.

As someone who plays magi, their list is not an issue.

I've found myself out-casting the party wizard from time to time, even though my list is a stunted cut-down wizard list.

But I get little things like spont prep, cheap re prep, and prepping spells I don't know, all at the measly cost of arcane points.

[kestral287]

Yeah, to my knowledge Magus gets exactly 0 spells at an earlier level than the Wizard, gets very few spells that they don't, and misses a lot of spells that they should probably get.

In fact, they have an Arcana that can give them two spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list... at high levels in particular it's one of the better choices.

That said, they can cover their bases. They get all of the important blasts, most of the good buffs (though I hate that they miss Heroism and (Greater) Stunning Barrier), a small but solid list of debuffs-- though most of them target the Fort save, a good deal of battlefield control, and at least a few pieces of utility magic. They suck at basically anything related to Necromancy or Enchantment (aside from Vampiric Touch/Vampiric Shadow Shield, I don't think they get any Necromancy spells), and very little Divination and Illusions.

Still, all told, they're really nice Blaster-Casters against single targets, they can heal just fine with Infernal Healing on their spell list, and they can put up most of the vital party buffs. So they don't get many complaints aside from lots of folks hating that they miss Mage Armor. Their list works, and works just fine, so despite being stunted the class doesn't have any real problems in that respect.

But from a view of a stunted spell list, the Magus gets the worst of it of anyone in the game.

[Rynjin]

Neo2151 wrote:

Why don't the new classes get the same consideration?

Artwork of Antipaladins kicking piglets and a bunch of pages on a class/archetype design philosophy Paizo rarely follows was more important than making sure the book contained proper options for all its classes, and all the archetypes were finished (*cough*).

TL;DR: "We didn't have enough word count."

[Neo2151]

Rynjin wrote:

and a bunch of pages on a class/archetype design philosophy Paizo rarely follows

A troubling trend I have also noticed. :/

[Rynjin]

I'm especially annoyed at that bit since it really had no place or purpose in a rulebook. It would have worked quite well as a blog post, freeing up TWELVE PAGES for stuff they "didn't have enough word count for".