Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry to spam with ideas, in lack of a better forum ...
The meaningfulness of the Rogue role has been questioned repeatedly so i decided to collate and expand some of my ideas, and having them wetted by people with higher Wis than me...
Most of the actions listed should be associated with a hit to Reputation, but with the speedy recovery of Rep now and the whole system in fluctuation I find it meaningless to speculate in that area.
I list them in something like order of ease of Implention (with the caveat that I know nothing of the software in use or the organisation of it).
Rogue trick; Pickpocket lvl 2
A really short ranged attack (5 m, 10 m?) demanding a high level of sneak vs. NPC. ( I suggest that it is either only usable against NPC or at least against those who already have a hostile/whatever flag if PC until further analysis).
If the attack is successful (using whatever system appropiate to decide) a check is made (of droppings from NPC, inventory if PC) if the piece of smallest ENC is below a threshold (0.3, 0.2?) and/or coins, then transfered to the theif's inventory.
Perhaps a timer is then started thats gives a headsup to the victim of the theft ... Flashing Awareness for the NPC (so the thief cant hang around pickining the pocket of the same goblin until kingdom comes).
Holdout (Skill)
Reducing the amount of small stuff that can be looted from a Rogues Husk. Depending on ease of coding it could either be left hidden on husk for the owner to retrive later or treated like a threaded item. Increased skill both increase the chance, number and size of items.
OR
The skill only increase the time for looting the husk. Making it a bit more difficult for robbers in hurry.
This skill should perhaps be accessible to Commoners also.
Stealth system overhaul
This includes environmental bonus for Sneak, bonus if standing still, for darkness and LOS. Penalties for encumbrance, Armour and open areas.
Rogue Trick: Stealing secrets lvl 2/3
When targeting a Crafting Door in a hostile Settlement (where you not allowed to train or whatever) there is a chance to steal a reciept of something crafted last hours (1,2,12?) (as I understand this info is not stored in the crafting shop but on the character, so something need to change a bit).
Drugs
I have some ideas of a drug industry, but as Im not aware of the GWs policy about this I leave it be, but I have some ideas how to make drugs attractive in spite of the drawbacks.
Rogue Trick: The big one lvl 3
Ability similar the Stealing Secrets above, but targeting the Vault. How to get past the Thornguards parked infront of the Vault I leave as an exercise to the Student. When that little detail small stuff (but in quite a number) can be stolen from the Vault. Probably a permanet flag should be put on the character or Vault allowing this be made only once per Settlement. And perhaps also letting the name be known to the Settlement leader (Bounty I hear someone say).
Bluff
Allows you to bypass Settlement restrictions on training and (on really high levels) fool Thornguards. Possibly by hiding flags and/or adding a virtual Reputation. Hiding flags should have a duration and a cooldown of course.
Perhaps even removing aggro from Monsters (unless attacked of course) allowing for a Rogue to run through an camp of Orges to loose a posse of upset citizens...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Schedim,
There will never be Pick Pocketing in the game, because the "Loot Monkeys" cherish their "Precious" beyond all other things, and Heaven forbid they have to rely on training and relying upon a passive defense (ie. Perception).
Pick Pocketing would require a whole system onto itself, regardless that it could be quite deep and interactive, it is likely beyond GW desires and possibly capabilities to make such a system.
To be fair, I don't believe it is in any MMO (PVP Pick Pocketing, that is). For those two reasons I mentioned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mmm I hear what you say, Bludd, therefore I suggested the NPC version mainly.
But I really can't understand why there can't be pickpocket, when there going to be husk looting and actual destruction of stuff on death.
And that the system would be so difficult to implemen I'm very sceptic toward. Of course it depends on exactly how the attack system is coded, but unless it is very rigid and inflexible it can't that hard to create a pickpocket subset.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Picking pockets is a difficult inclusion because it can't be as simple and one-sided as you make it sound. There are people who will do whatever they can to prevent it, and will require rich options for countering you, like alertness, ties, buttons, decoys, etc. as well as a very real chance of enduring negative consequences if you screw up the roll (Like imprisonment or removal of a hand or semi/permanent -2500 rep max in any settlement and its allies). Without those, some people will always feel like the game is denying them a level playing field.
If there is no hard choice to be made in any criminal endeavour, then why wouldn't everyone do it?
(edit: One of the problems with table-top is that there aren't nearly enough thieves wandering around with one hand.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wouldn't it be cool to be a pickpocket? (*)
Means:
1: You get within 10ft of me, I try to kill you or run away (our world becomes massively distorted due to this effect)
2: Nobody carries anything worth pickpocketing
3: Spending XP on pickpocketing skills is something only clueless newbies do
4: All the time and resources spent implementing this feature is wasted
(*) The rage of being a victim of theft in MMOs is vastly disproportionate to the real loss of value. For a very very large part of the community it crosses an invisible line into "being cheated"
Ah, a rogue-y discussion. *gets coffee and longweed*
Pick-pocket - It does sound neat, but I'd like to see a different implementation. Instead of an attack action v mobs, I'd like to see it as a feat you could activate that would bleed some coppers from nearby Players and NPCs for a couple of seconds. A Perception v Sneak (or PP) could mean you get a note "Your coinpurse seems lighter" or "you caught Hobson reaching towrds your coin purse", or no note if it's sucessful. I do not believe one should have to be stealthed to pick-pocket.
You could fleece the groups hanging around staring at the vault or interface buildings easier. Maybe there's a rep penalty for getting caught, but I really enjoy Bludd's idea of Kill-Mail, bounties, and other player-led actions for dealing with "bad guys". It would also incourage people to go drop off coppers at the vault more often and be careful about high-copper tansactions.
Holdout - I like the idea of some sort of husk-specific abilities (protecting items or quicker, more productive looting). Very Master of the House sewer scene.
Stealth - Yes please. I don't think we'll ever get to attack from stealth...but it should have at least some offensive use (not just lying in wait).
Rogue Tricks, Secrets, and Bluff - Yes. Yes. Yes. If there's no thievery and no assassins, then let us be Agents. Stealing from strongholds, slowing down crafter queues, hiding/changing rep, allignment, or alliegence, maybe even name and other info. Affecting POIs, etc.
The Vault - I'm fine with the vault being one magically safe place.
Drugs/Illicit trade - Aw, are they still illegal in Golarian? Try a Colordo ip address, all our Greenweed is Potent. While neat, I don't see how illicit trade would work in PFO.
Now, I'm still going Rogue and I'm staying mainly single role with feats and eq. I'll probably bank half to 2/3 of my xp, maybe more, and wait to see what they do with rogues down the line. Ryan took note of the conditions/feats problem with A11 on day one (flat-footed/distressed desync), so I expect we will be less combat-nerfed in 11.1 and EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wouldn't it be cool to be a pickpocket? (*)
Means:
1: You get within 10ft of me, I try to kill you or run away (our world becomes massively distorted due to this effect)
2: Nobody carries anything worth pickpocketing
3: Spending XP on pickpocketing skills is something only clueless newbies do
4: All the time and resources spent implementing this feature is wasted
(*) The rage of being a victim of theft in MMOs is vastly disproportionate to the real loss of value. For a very very large part of the community it crosses an invisible line into "being cheated"
1. If you take the rep loss for that ... Fine
2. If you never want to risk anything, why play?
3. Not if the system actually allows you to DO something
4. If you say so, it's your game, but it is a very narrowminded view, and frankly, saying we cant do it because no one else hasnt done before .... Is a bit strange coming from the developer of this game.
Do you mean accepting the loss of 25% of ALL stuff by death is easier to accept than loss of a coin or two, a dagger or a jewel if you hunker around in the woods by night?
Cal: hmmm of course it should be counter measures, one is that it should be demanding in training to do it towards a PC, high Perception making it risky and as you suggest perhaps a utility or two that works against it.
Reputation loss is a great moderator is implemented right.
And if there are too few one handed thieves, the gallows should be full of "adventurers".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rogue Tricks, Secrets, and Bluff - Yes. Yes. Yes. If there's no thievery and no assassins, then let us be Agents. Stealing from strongholds, slowing down crafter queues, hiding/changing rep, allignment, or alliegence, maybe even name and other info. Affecting POIs, etc.
There are no Assassins YET. But their will be mechanics for them in the future. It's why I plan on training in Rogue, not for what it offers now, but in the future. I'm one of the few vocal "assassins" on the board. It hurts to know I'm nothing more then a weak Dex fighter for now, but all my hope lies in the future. What can I say, I'm a gambling man.
EDIT: this is all on my speculation that the base Assassin requirements will be rogue, maybe a little fighter.
EDIT2: also for any other Assassin minding folks looking for a company to join, PM me, or head over to the Xeilias website, apply to the settlement Golgotha, and check out The Bloody Hand! (sorry guys, couldn't help)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't demand rogues be balanced as a light-armored fighter with fast combat skills and stealth attacks which seems to be the MMO standard. While that is one way to "balance" the role, we know that melee attacking from stealth is not in plan for PFO, so I would like to see the development of unique skills in homage to the tabletop rogue.
Disguise skill to train, with passive feats to boost or expand use to alter flag, temporarily alter name or faction or even settlement/alliance affiliation if they ever become visible. Perhaps even temporary reskin character appearance.
Pilfer skill or feat to allow more rapid "harvesting" from player husk. Perhaps in combination with successful Disguise, allowing chance of access to an enemies bank, POI, smallholding, or base camp to steal from a portion of its contents.
A relevant knowledge skill trained to increase quantity "gathered" from an enemy or vault, similar to plan already in works for knowledge skills affecting other gathering.
Looking back in time to original thieves, allow a chance for rogue to use the wizard spells they find to learn Spell: <example> as a permanent rogue manoeuvre with rogue kit equipped and high chance of failure. Or a chance to convert it to a unique Token.
Listen skill, to allow chance of, or partial "eavesdropping" on chat channels normally not a member of (smallholding, settlement/company specific, Local in hex next to one rogue in).
Thought can be given as to how to flesh out the role using mechanics already in game, or that could be later introduced that might be useful in the development of other roles that overlap somewhat with rogue (assassin, monk, etc.). I certainly would be more accepting of deficiency in direct combat if the role is better rounded in traditional noncombat thief-tropes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with pickpocketing is it doesn't give the person who is being pickpocketed anything to really do. It comes down to an opposed check, and then its over.
The problem with stealing from vaults is that *everyone* would try to do it, wearing nothing but their threaded clothes that boost pickpocketing. The rewards would be huge, the costs....not terribly high.
If you can come up with a system where the person who would be losing their equipment can be just as much a part of the system and requires about the same amount of time/input, then by all means, bring up the system. But the idea has been discussed to death, and we have yet to find a viable system for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with pickpocketing is it doesn't give the person who is being pickpocketed anything to really do. It comes down to an opposed check, and then its over.
The problem with stealing from vaults is that *everyone* would try to do it, wearing nothing but their threaded clothes that boost pickpocketing. The rewards would be huge, the costs....not terribly high.
If you can come up with a system where the person who would be losing their equipment can be just as much a part of the system and requires about the same amount of time/input, then by all means, bring up the system. But the idea has been discussed to death, and we have yet to find a viable system for it.
I'm not actually keen on pickpocketing as I have accepted the reasons outlined by Ryan. In regards to Robbery or Pilfering from a bank or smallholding/POI/base camp - difficulty would be variable but likely high simply to approach if an active site, a Disguise check to actually access the interface, another check to see what value and/or proportion of items you see. That check could be based on Activated Keywords to make cost of failure higher. "Naked" robber may only get access to one Pine Log (or equivalent). Tier2 +3 equipped character with max keywords activated perhaps has a chance at single Tier 2 resource or item. Remember encumbrance will significantly limit what can be taken as well. When the item is actually transferred to Inventory, a final skill check could determine whether alarm announcement in chat is broadcast. Maybe someday, skill checks could be mini games or left as invisible skill checks. Plenty of opportunities for failure, success could be made unattractive if rogue minimise their own chance of loss.
To me, the biggest drawback to something like this is that it does not encourage group play, which i feel should be a part of any system they are designing. Risk vs. reward is not the big unbalancing issue to me, that can be managed within current design i feel.
Edit: Missed the issue of clothes being threaded. Could make a failed Pilfer attempt cause durability loss. Amount of loss could be iterated to make repeated attempts unattractive. Even rep loss could be triggered by successful or unsuccessful attempts. Mechanisms exist with the current game design to discourage behaviour or introduce risk, just a matter of deciding how to use them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually the lack of group play is one of the better arguments so far, and something to think about.
Listening in to "secret" channels seems to be an excellent idea!
Pickpocet onesides as victim hasn't much to do ... To me it feels a bit like a gatherer meeting a fighter... All options besides run.... not viable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to say - as a commoner-player - the 4 adventuring roles may as well just be different fighting styles. Or maybe that's all they are.
ThievesRogues don't have a special ability to pickpocket or steal from another character. Likewise, Wizards don't have the ability to magically turn someone into a newt, and Clerics don't have the ability to change your alignment by preaching at you. And I'm fine that all three of those capabilities aren't in the game.
If you want to make your Rogue have some minor magical capability, like the Grey Mouser (who had been a hedge wizard's apprentice) all you have to do is train the skills. If you want to mess with another settlement, like an agent, sneak in and damage their outposts and POIs to increase their upkeep. Or raid them, quiet like, filching a few goods here and there. There doesn't have to be 9 different complex and competing systems to provide a special gaming experience for the Rogues Wizards Clerics Fighters Rangers or whatever. Imo, there's enough there for us to use the roles as a basis for creating our own space and story.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to say - as a commoner-player - the 4 adventuring roles may as well just be different fighting styles. Or maybe that's all they are...
I'd agree for MVP. Beyond that... We can dream :)
We know the devs have had discussions specific to rogues recently. The more ideas we brainstorm, especially if they are modifications of in game mechanics or design already in the pipeline for other purposes, the better. But I suspect all of us here are cognisant that these are not priority issues.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Schedim,
There will never be Pick Pocketing in the game, because the "Loot Monkeys" cherish their "Precious" beyond all other things, and Heaven forbid they have to rely on training and relying upon a passive defense (ie. Perception).
Pick Pocketing would require a whole system onto itself, regardless that it could be quite deep and interactive, it is likely beyond GW desires and possibly capabilities to make such a system.
To be fair, I don't believe it is in any MMO (PVP Pick Pocketing, that is). For those two reasons I mentioned.
Bare in mind the roles in PFO are 90% cosmetic so if you introduce pickpocketing anyone will be able to do it , not just high level rogues.
One issue is pickpocketing would increase the already problematic tendency for people to gather naked once looting comes in.
The main reason it was left out of Elder Scrolls is they felt it was
The other issue is a more generic PvP one. Unless you take the EVE attitude that "people that refuse to PvP are pathetic and should just quit the game - and can I has all their stuff?" you have a problem as there will be a substantial number of players who have tried pvP in other games and found it boring and unchallenging and those players will never willingly engage in it even if the game tries to force them into it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not everyone will be able, that is the beauty of placing it as a Rogue Trick. The will be few and far between in the first place as all Droppings (hehe, love that gutter level, sorry middenheap level, expression).
If the pickpocket hate are so big, most will be destroyed in the first place ... But those who go on sale will probably go for exorbitant price, it will probably be a prize for the career for many rogues with that inclination .... So no there will not ever be swarms of Rogues picking the poor gatheres clean of their virtual possesions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Schedim
Another idea of a feat to help round out rogues was added to Ideascale. Suggestion was for only rogues to be able to train slightly faster stealth speed. Bringing it up to walking speed or some percentage higher seems reasonable. Could be trained multiple levels for progressive increase. Make the prerequisite skills strict so only those who have gone far enough down rogue tree would bother with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fair! But isn't it a bit for the excitement ... a tinytinytiny bit? :-)2. If you never want to risk anything, why playTo enjoy myself and my friends?
I have more than enough excitement in real life. I tend to play computer games to relax.
Also, what sort of game people prefer to play when wanting to indulge in PvP varies radically.
If I want to PvP I fire up a historically accurate WWII flight sim. Dog fights can go half an hour, you really rely on teamwork and a wing man and the very slight mistake sees a deterioration in your planes performance as you take hits or sees you lose height and speed which is equally bad.
On the other hand I have played EVE for years and mainly hangout in losec (the EVE equivalent of the Wild West) but find the EVE PvP un-challenging and boring. It is more about ship fit and target selection than anything else and the limit to manual flying is clicking in a blank spot in space to slingshot. However some people absolutely LOVE the PvP in EVE. So it all depends on the individual.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fair! But isn't it a bit for the excitement ... a tinytinytiny bit? :-)2. If you never want to risk anything, why playTo enjoy myself and my friends?
Not motivationally. There is excitement in PvP combat when it happens, but I am of an age, and if we are lucky you will reach that age, where my pro-inflammatory corticoids vastly outnumber my anti-inflammatory corticoids. That means that when my body interprets what is going on in my brain as stress (fight-or-flight syndrome) it hasn't the 'juice' to neutralize the stuff it naturally generates to disarm the body's defenses and consequently my body ends up biochemically attacking itself... manifesting in joint pain among other more serious issues... and leading to a need for occasional cortisone supplements. I have lived a long and challenging life, and seen enough near-death experiences for this to be a real issue, and I must maintain cautious attention and exercise restraint.
The human body has a limited amount of anti-inflammatory corticoids and an unlimited amount of inflammatory corticoids. You who are unnecessarily putting yourself under stress are shortening your healthy lives. This information won't stop you any more than it would have me, but at least in your sunset years you may recall this 'I-told-you-so' with rueful humor.