Except sorcerers cast from magic within their blood, so pretty much anyone could be a sorcerer.True, yet that means that a system could be devised to ensure those born as sorcerers were either adopted into nobility (much as exceptional soldiers could be knighted), or destroyed. After generations of such a system, most sorcerers would be noble born anyway as the majority of living sorcerers would be nobles and thus pass the bloodline along with lineage.
anyone could be a sorcerer, does not mean anyone would be freely allowed to be one. The same is true of the other inherited arcane casting class.
The point was control. Noble classes have power and more control systemically. If they let people run loose that could control minds, summon outsiders, and control the forces of nature, the balance of power shifts away from Middle Age feudalism and turns nobility into aristocracy (much like firearms did with our history). This turns our nobles into fops once more.
Much as I have bitter memories of what became of the Dragon Age series, I did like the "latent magical ability as source of prejudice" angle that mages had. Having this for sorcerers is something I'd be interested in seeing in one of the Inner Sea countries. I wonder which ones would be like that.
It would indeed be again satisfying to roll a character that is positively scared sh**less of what is going to happen to them when they begin being able to cause lights to spontaneously appear about them.
don't restrict options or equipment to noble PCs and don't give the noble an exclusive set of bonuses while making the party share their hindrances. i remember playing a savage worlds game as a fellow player alongside this kid named Andrew who was an outright bad case of Weeaboo Brony. as a robotic lizardman, he used a hindrance to gain a character with access to the skills required to repair his robotic self and operate machinery. because the character was bought with a major hindrance and the DM likes cranking major hindrances to over the top levels of flanderization, he got his scientist wife, with the downside that the wife would constantly perform idiotic deeds like attracting a demons attention or failing to keep watch and getting kidnapped.
essentially the party paid the price of a hindrance for a boon that only benefitted the lizard bot. it wasn't pleasant and there was a lot of infighting and because of this
if you give a noble access to a home circle with free accommodations and free resupplies but force the noble's opposing family to send assassins the party has to face, you suffer the same problem we suffered with the lizard's doctor. if you want to make a whole party share the fight with the assassins who pursue to noble, at least give them the free accommodations and free mundane resupplies the noble was given by virtue of being the noble's companions and fighting off assassins who were after the lord or lady's life.
Game worlds that equate Middle Ages nobility into a fantasy game would best be served by saying only nobles could have most adventuring classes. Only nobles could be fighters, paladins, cavaliers, samurai, wizards, sorcerers, summoners, or alchemists. If nobles were the only class allowed martial training above the NPC warrior class, it would certainly make sense that arcane casters would be highly restricted to nobility classes as well.
If only nobles could have plate armor, lance, and armored horse in the Middle Ages - what greater restrictions would there be for magical training?
All other classes could be for common born or nobles alike.
Most fantasy game worlds provide escapism, and thus equal opportunity to become such classes. Since a commoner or a noble could have equal chance of becoming a Paladin, it would usually be an "unfair" advantage if one PC had a noble title while the rest of the group wasn't as upwardly mobile. It's like Star Wars roleplaying - it works best if either the whole group plays Jedi, or no one in the group are Jedi. The same can be said of nobility in a Fantasy game.
If running fantasy in our world, medieval Swiss non-nobility could most certainly be fighters. And Flemish. ;)
Course, any place where you get professional soldiery, not just nobles, is a good candidate for non-noble fighters.
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The games that really worked with the concept of nobility were Chivalry & Sorcery, and later Pendragon. Pendragon had a cool set of tables where you could roll up what your grandfather and father were doing when Uther was fighting through the chaos of early wars and young Arthur was establishing himself. C&S was set up so that while both commoners and nobles could be "fighters", but they had radically different equipment and resources, and they would have radically different roles in the adventuring party.
It would be cool to have a set of history-based tables for family background, so for example in a Varisia campaign, you could find out what your ancestors were doing when Aroden died, when the Chellaxians lost control of Varisia, when Magnimar was founded, and when Sandpoint was founded. Not to mention the many regional conflicts that doubtles took place over that period: sea raiders, battles between Magnimar, Riddleport and Korvosa, etc.
I would only dig into the questions of nobility after setting up those sorts of records of the local history, since being nobility means having a stake in the political scene. Who owns what territories. Who owes fealty to whom. Who are your family's historical rivals, enemies and allies.
This would probably work best with characters starting above 1st level, and you'd want to factor in other advantages for non-noble characters. Even if PCs began at 1st level, you'd need specific story elements to deal with the power of family connections and the intrinsic advantages and disadvantages of boing politically connected. It would make for a very cool expansion to the Golarion setting.
Hmmmm...
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As far as the perception of nobles as useless fops among players go, beyond what has already been mentioned, I think the interaction dynamics between NPCs and PCs have to be taken into account. Even if a king or noble is skilled in theory, many times in the game they don't do much except sit around and give quests and/or need to be rescued. Essentially they take a passive role much of the time. Another common trope is that the characters must/are compelled to solve all of the world's problems (a common, accidental side effect of "the PCS are the only heroes" style of world). So if you have NPCs that are there only to hand your PC things to do or to be rescued, I can see how it could be easy to view all authority figures as lazy, corrupt, selfish, or incompetent.
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Another thing is that just because you start as a commoner that doesn't mean you finish up that way.
I touched on this in All That Glitters Is Not Gold when I suggested that title, land, and rank be given as a reward to PCs who had achieved truly notable success. Sure you have enough gold to outright buy your own land and title, but having it awarded to you is something intangible that can make a player and the character face a lot of decisions. Is the witch against the gentry, but wants the land being offered for the potent magical energy in its leylines? Is the fighter disillusioned with a life of battle in the service of nobles, but still has a yearning from his younger self to accept the honor? Does the rogue want the legitimacy of rank, hoping it will wipe out the stains of her past?
Fun questions, and they can add a lot of personal plot.
Oh, yes.
You just reminded me of another awesome noble I'd forgotten about. He was a wizard and member of a powerful noble house which relied on wizardry for its power. However, he disliked the principle of nobility and his family's airs, and instead of promoting his house's interests he disappeared and made a new identity as a private eye. During one of his investigations he provided such a service to the crown that they insisted on knighting him. It was amusing watching him try to refuse.
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No DM is going to give a player that kind of money, and power, at first level.
Money? Power?
How much Money and Power do you give YOUR children? Especially if you have 5-7 of them?
What percentage of your money and power do they wield?
The more money and power one has the more that percentage counts.
Rich parents trait, handles the extra money a minor nobles child might have.
They would also go lodging rights, as long as they traveled in allied lands, and even in foreign lands if they could prove their nobility. But they would also be expected to hold court/mete justice.
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also we forget, as far as starting money goes… how many commoners have 175 gold to dump into swords and metal armor?
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No DM is going to give a player that kind of money, and power, at first level.Money? Power?
How much Money and Power do you give YOUR children? Especially if you have 5-7 of them?
What percentage of your money and power do they wield?The more money and power one has the more that percentage counts.
Rich parents trait, handles the extra money a minor nobles child might have.
They would also go lodging rights, as long as they traveled in allied lands, and even in foreign lands if they could prove their nobility. But they would also be expected to hold court/mete justice.
Most PCs are not children.
Also, let's say the PC is maybe, 5th in line, for the throne. That still is power, and perhaps, maybe all the successors die?
Now, you have a problem.
Now, what if the other successors don't die, but the PC is charismatic enough, or has a representative charismatic enough, to convince others that he should be the successor?
What if somebody harms, captures, or even kills the PC?
The reaction would be quite different, and then powerful resources can be called upon.
You will keep having to come up with contrived reasons for why they cannot call upon such powerful resources, or why they are 5th in line, instead of 1st, or why nobody seems to care.
After a while, you may as well be the Grand Chicken Bungler, for all the "Noble" title is worth.
We need a noble character class but that's another topic.
I think the reason nobles are usually portrayed as bumblers in fiction now is a product of modern times and the coming of democratic governments. No longer is the aristocracy fit to rule by their birth but instead the power comes from the will of the governed through voting themselves or their representatives.
So what we see now are a scandal-filled in-bred nobility in our reality, what we make in our fiction reflects the idea that is the self-made man and not nobility that saves society.
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That's is still using contrived reason to deal with a Noble PC.
Now, you have to be young. You can't have any direct lines to the throne. You parents must limit your income. On, and on, and on...
In the end, you can do it, but you have to create all this framework around the PC, as to why being a Noble is almost meaningless.
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One drawback of the game is the expectation that PCs start at 1st level. If you start at, say, 4th level, then you can choose your 6000gp worth of equipment to match your idea of what your noble character would have on hand, just as all of the other characters can.
Most of my 35+ years in the hobby have been with characters created to play a specific adventure or scenario, and created at that level, whether that was 1st, 4th or 15th. Noble characters aren't a problem to conceive at this point.
If you start at 1st, then progress to 15th during the course of an adventure path, then because your concept had to work for a 1st level character and it's a problem to make a feasible 1st level adventuring noble then the concept seems stupid, but in reality this stupidity is only caused by starting at 1st level.
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We need a noble character class but that's another topic.
You mean this? Because, while a prestige class, that's distinctly a Noble. And pretty effective, in it's way.
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That's is still using contrived reason to deal with a Noble PC.
Now, you have to be young. You can't have any direct lines to the throne. You parents must limit your income. On, and on, and on...
In the end, you can do it, but you have to create all this framework around the PC, as to why being a Noble is almost meaningless.
I'd say actually - that a noble without being able to call upon any resources can be a pretty cool backstory. Though yes - it doesn't actually have mechanical benefits. It's backstory.
Ex: My current character grew up as a noble (samurai) but his house fell into disgrace and the emperor withdrew their noble status.
1st level noble can work. The way it works is your family really ****ing hates you.
You have the upbringing - fraught with acting-up and arguments and miscommunication; you have the skills - hard earned and some of them you probably defied your family to get, maybe getting your tutors fired and flogged; you have reached some sort of maturity - but your family doesn't recognise it. Now you are ready for adventure! Or at least, you desperately want to get away from the manor.
The family may try to draw you back in after level 6, maybe all the tales of your great successes finally reach them and they decide to give you another go, or marry you off for political capital now that you are worth something, and not a constant disappointment.
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That is another one.
The "fallen Noble".
It makes a cool backstory, but now it's like being "King of the Monkeys".
You have the title, but no real power, because, well, they are monkeys, and don't care, and no money, because, well, post-flung poo is not gold, and telling people about your title, means diddly squat.
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I love intricate backstories.
I am just saying, that if a backstory has a negative effect on gameplay, and forces other players or the DM to cope, then it might not be worth it.
Being a Noble is a great backstory.
It just needs to be handled right, to work.
I have had "Noble" fellow PCs, and some were done well, and others were a pain. This was true even if the PC was a good guy, that was easy to get along with.
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The beginning of the thread advocated being Noble, as if it were an advantage.
When being a Noble goes beyond a cool backstory, and becomes an actual advantage of sorts, it becomes a problem.
So, be a Noble. It's a cool idea.
Just don't expect it to do anything for you, except maybe make you slightly more interesting.
Also, yes, other backgrounds can follow this same reasoning.
Father sends you a sweet +4 longsword.
It is cursed...
No DM is going to give a player that kind of money, and power, at first level.Money? Power?
How much Money and Power do you give YOUR children? Especially if you have 5-7 of them?
What percentage of your money and power do they wield?The more money and power one has the more that percentage counts.
Rich parents trait, handles the extra money a minor nobles child might have.
They would also go lodging rights, as long as they traveled in allied lands, and even in foreign lands if they could prove their nobility. But they would also be expected to hold court/mete justice.
Most PCs are not children.
Also, let's say the PC is maybe, 5th in line, for the throne. That still is power, and perhaps, maybe all the successors die?
Now, you have a problem.
Now, what if the other successors don't die, but the PC is charismatic enough, or has a representative charismatic enough, to convince others that he should be the successor?
What if somebody harms, captures, or even kills the PC?
The reaction would be quite different, and then powerful resources can be called upon.You will keep having to come up with contrived reasons for why they cannot call upon such powerful resources, or why they are 5th in line, instead of 1st, or why nobody seems to care.
After a while, you may as well be the Grand Chicken Bungler, for all the "Noble" title is worth.
I didn't even read any farther than the statement "most PCs are not children"
Do you think they pop out of holes in the ground and are dubbed noble because their hole was silver lined?
Of course they are ALL children.
Someone has to pass their nobility down to them.
What was the third son of the baron of wessex going to do? Spend all the money and control the entirety of the lands whilst his father and two older brothers are still alive?
As I previously stated, before you humorously assumed children had any equability to age;
A CHILD of a Noble is STILL a Noble, has all the expectations and privilege there of, but much less wealth and authority.
My current PC is the 7th son of Rothgar, Chief of the Blades of Aaramor.
The original draft of the character had 'rich parents' as a trait.
Instead I chose Mercenary and Veteran of Battle Traits, due to his being far removed from power.
The Character is a 30 year old Male human, does that make him any less the CHILD of Rothgar of Aaramor?
If he was the 1st son of Rothgar, would his existence immediately slay Rothgar and instantly make him chief of the whole tribe?
I don't think completely denying the possibility of problems helps anyone.
There may be ways to solve these possible problems, but saying they don't exist, is just willful ignorance.
I think part of the issue is different commenters are making different assumptions.
One person hears "I have a noble character" and immediately thinks that person is a Lannister, with huge connections, a family fortune, and powerful relatives. The next person pictures a hedge knight, lord of a backwater with maybe a few local men to call on for occasional posse duty. A third person might see someone who comes from a long line of distinguished heroes, and a fourth person pictures a second generation noble who's out to prove it wasn't just her parents who can do great deeds.
None of us in this 80+ long comment discussion have the same definitions because all of us are picturing different kinds of characters and rationale.
Most of the problems being mentioned are things that, quite frankly, should never happen. Ever.
As most people have pointed out the DM has to okay everything. Players cannot show up in game saying they're now one of the nephews of her Infernal Majestrix because you as the DM did not okay that. They can't tell you how much money their family has, or outline what resources they possess (without mechanical backup). These PCs cannot simply turn to a local town guard and command them unless you as the DM allow the players to do that. You should work with players so you're both on the same page as far as what their place is in society, and the sorts of things they can and can't do specifically so that players don't try to pull the "I enlist my father's army" card only to have the DM slap them down in the heat of the moment.
There have been some comments made on spending character resources (traits, feats, levels, etc.) for noble status, and while no one WANTS to do that it is the fairest way. You want to be the son of a baronet with the appropriate levels of money...
The only reason why everyone doesn't have the same image of 'noble' is because they don't know the definition of noble or how one becomes noble.
In your above example, Lancel Lannister was noble, by virtue of birth. How much money of control of Lannisport or Casterly Rock?
Also note there is a feat called 'Squire' which you can get at 3rd level, that automatically updates to leadership at 7th.
Your character can easily start out the 7th son of a 7th son, Still a noble but….
By 3rd level he is given knighthood and allowed to take a squire, and by 7th level, he may have surpassed his own Sire in wealth and power.
Although to be honest, a 7th level character, even with a high charisma, doesn't really have a following thats very large, to the point of making any , even minor noble houses jealous.
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No DM is going to give a player that kind of money, and power, at first level.Money? Power?
How much Money and Power do you give YOUR children? Especially if you have 5-7 of them?
What percentage of your money and power do they wield?The more money and power one has the more that percentage counts.
Rich parents trait, handles the extra money a minor nobles child might have.
They would also go lodging rights, as long as they traveled in allied lands, and even in foreign lands if they could prove their nobility. But they would also be expected to hold court/mete justice.
Most PCs are not children.
Also, let's say the PC is maybe, 5th in line, for the throne. That still is power, and perhaps, maybe all the successors die?
Now, you have a problem.
Now, what if the other successors don't die, but the PC is charismatic enough, or has a representative charismatic enough, to convince others that he should be the successor?
What if somebody harms, captures, or even kills the PC?
The reaction would be quite different, and then powerful resources can be called upon.You will keep having to come up with contrived reasons for why they cannot call upon such powerful resources, or why they are 5th in line, instead of 1st, or why nobody seems to care.
After a while, you may as well be the Grand Chicken Bungler, for all the "Noble" title is worth.
I didn't even read any farther than the statement "most PCs are not children"
Do you think they pop out of holes in the ground and are dubbed noble because their hole was silver lined?
Of course they are ALL children.
Someone has to pass their nobility down to them.What was the third son of the baron of wessex going to do? Spend all the money and control the entirety of the lands whilst his father and two older brothers are still alive?
As I previously stated, before you humorously assumed children had any equability to age;...
I didn't even read farther than "I didn't even read any farther than...".
If you don't read, then don't reply.
I didn't even read farther than "I didn't even read any farther than...".
If you don't read, then don't reply.
But aren't you breaking your own rule by replying to him?
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The beginning of the thread advocated being Noble, as if it were an advantage.
I don't think that was the OP's intent. I think the OP was advocating considering being a noble because, rather than being foppish and lazy, historical nobility commonly had both the resources and the motivation to pursue adventuring.
All PCs start with certain resources - gear, training, innate talent, and maybe contacts depending on the GM. The job of the backstory is to explain where they got these resources. Are you the child of a mercenary who insisted you learn to defend yourself, or did your wealthy parents pay for your tutors? Did you tame your class pet yourself, did you free it from a cruel circus-master, or was it a present from your noble family? Were your weapons and armour commissioned specially for your 16th birthday, were they scratched and dented hand-me-downs, or did you take them off a skeleton that you killed using a quarterstaff?
Contacts take a little more work, but noble characters aren't the only ones who can have powerful contacts. The GM just needs to figure how much help those contacts can provide and make sure it's an occasionally useful tool and not an "I win" button. One of my current player is the son of a powerful cleric, and the party just asked the father to intercede with a general on their behalf. It was a good call and will probably remove one obstacle but won't auto-solve their current problem.
We need a noble character class but that's another topic.You mean this? Because, while a prestige class, that's distinctly a Noble. And pretty effective, in it's way.
Similar, but as a full base class. Like this noble class for Dragonlance.