I have an imp familiar who disguises himself as a cat. How do I protect him from divinations that might reveal his true nature such as true seeing? This is a 16th-level game and I can afford up to a 8,000gp item (16,000gp item if it is a wondrous item).
I mostly don't want a party upset when one of the other PCs goes "It's a devil!" Such an anti-divinatory defense might be useful against NPCs as well.
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Understand that I am speaking from recent personal experience when I ask this:
How about just not purposefully doing something that rubs the party the wrong way in the first place?
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I'm not at fault if a fellow PC feels the need to suddenly break the GM's no PvP rule and attack my familiar.
I'm just trying to make things go as smoothly as possible while allowing everyone to continue playing the concepts that they wish.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but that doesn't give you the right to tell others how to play the game. That only perpetuates negativity among roleplayers, ultimately leading to more bad experiences. Also, your post isn't particularly helpful.
Disguise kit. Make the critter look like a Mephit or a Homunculus. It's a mundane disguise, so all divinations will be thwarted.
A Ring of Mind Shielding is 8K gold and prevents alignment detection. 4K if you make it yourself (and in a 16th level game why not make things for yourself to push the amount of gold you have further.
*edit* This won't help against a true seeing of course. If you want the Imp, just be prepared to deal with the consequences of having an evil creature tied to the character, which means the character is also of an evil alignment.
If that's going to cause a party issue just don't do it.
I would push the imps disguise skill as much as possible. They dont even get a perception check until they have a reason to be suspicious .
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Honestly you should clear it with the party. I'm sure you have a good reason to have an imp and yet want to team up with people that may want to slay all fiends.
Tell them you're keeping watch over it to prevent it its greater evils. If slain, it would just reform in Hell and be up to no good again.
If you need to spend resources to conceal things from your teammates, it's a waste of resources. Spend them to face the real enemies.
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I have an imp familiar who disguises himself as a cat. How do I protect him from divinations that might reveal his true nature...
There is ANOTHER way other then disguise to get your party to accept an imp familiar.
(!)Note(!) - This is pretty intense way to RP, Please do not do the following if you or your party are in anyway uncomfortable with such RP.
Also real life physical or physiological abuse is BAD. Don't do it, stop others from doing it! Below is purely for RP purposes. As you are both master and pet, you are effectively talking to yourself.
Method: Redirect any hatred of your imp to yourself. Make the party sympathize with your pet instead.
How?
1) Be a CRUEL master.
-1a) Keep you imp on a leash. Tag on it often and in a violent manner, aka make it clear to the party, your the master and the imp is your "slave".
-1b) Blame the imp for any mistakes and problems, no matter how unreasonable. The party got ambush? Imp's fault for not noticing. Party failed diplo? Imp's fault for being present.
Reason: the purpose of 1) is to make the party feel for the imp. And hate your character instead.
2) RP your Imp
- RP your Imp's suffering. Make it beg and plea you for mercy. Get it to cry. Cry out when it gets hit by you for the slightest mistakes.
- Make it sneaky beg the other party members for simple comforts like... water or food. Or even healing.
Reason: You want to make it clear your Imp is suffering and taking abuse from you.
3) Offer to kill off your Imp, is any party member is upset with an Imp in party.
- Offer to kill off your imp, if any party member like a cleric of a LG deity complaints about it.
- BUT! Choose a painful death and make sure you RP the Imp, knowing this and goes into a full mental break down as he begs for his life.
Reason: Make your party members very uncomfortable with killing off your Imp.
4) Make the Imp the party's pet. Imp helps party.
- Once you have the party realize how badly you are treating the imp, but the imp to become the party's responsibility.
- Get the Imp to brave dangers to save/help your party mates.
- Make the party love the Imp.
Conclusion: Tuck at the hearts of your party mates to have them sympathize, care and love the Imp.
WARNING: Again don't do this if your party or you are uncomfortable with such evil RP. It is really more for a BBEG type PC.
WARNING2 (evil parties): If your party are murderous kill-them-alls, the method above will not work. The party needs to have hearts and feelings.
Method: Redirect any hatred of your imp to yourself. Make the party sympathize with your pet instead.
Good idea!
Ravingdork: I didn't tell you how to play. I asked you a question. Your negative response to that question raises others in my mind, though.
I do think I have helpful advice but I am sorry you didn't take it that way.
Question: Your DM has PVP rules. Does he also have alignment restriction rules or rules about making characters that are diametrically opposed? Are there characters in the party who are diametrically opposed to associating with such a creature?
I guess my point is if there are a bunch of characters in the party who are not so opposed to the idea of you having a demon bound to your service then perhaps this is a non-issue. I mean if the DM is ok with it then he must have his reasons if he doesn't want PVP in the party. It would be hard to believe that he has a non-PVP rule while inviting situations that would cause it.
If it isn't going to cause a problem then it is a non-issue. If it is likely to cause a problem eventually (when in an anti-magic field, or someone somehow discovers it) then my best, most constructive advice is to not do it. It seems I am not alone in this opinion. I was the just the first to share it. Hopefully that doesn't ruin our close personal relationship.
Petty Alchemy has a great idea. If you trust the players but not necessarily the characters you could come clean to them OOC. It would also help to have a good reason why your character should have an Imp familiar as well. Actually... why does your character have an Imp familiar anyway? Tell me it isn't just for mechanical reasons...
Ravingdork: I didn't tell you how to play. I asked you a question. Your negative response to that question raises others in my mind, though.
I do think I have helpful advice but I am sorry you didn't take it that way.
Question: Your DM has PVP rules. Does he also have alignment restriction rules or rules about making characters that are diametrically opposed? Are there characters in the party who are diametrically opposed to associating with such a creature?
I guess my point is if there are a bunch of characters in the party who are not so opposed to the idea of you having a demon bound to your service then perhaps this is a non-issue. I mean if the DM is ok with it then he must have his reasons if he doesn't want PVP in the party. It would be hard to believe that he has a non-PVP rule while inviting situations that would cause it.
If it isn't going to cause a problem then it is a non-issue. If it is likely to cause a problem eventually (when in an anti-magic field, or someone somehow discovers it) then my best, most constructive advice is to not do it. It seems I am not alone in this opinion. I was the just the first to share it. Hopefully that doesn't ruin our close personal relationship.
Petty Alchemy has a great idea. If you trust the players but not necessarily the characters you could come clean to them OOC. It would also help to have a good reason why your character should have an Imp familiar as well. Actually... why does your character have an Imp familiar anyway? Tell me it isn't just for mechanical reasons...
GM's Alignment Limitations:
Technically, there are no players yet, as the GM is still trying to decide who to let play. There is one other candidate with an angelic character concept who is very much the opposite of mine. We've been in discussion trying to reason out a way for our characters to work together during the game once the imp comes out (if he ever does). It's entirely possible it will all become moot if I don't get in, or if he doesn't get in.
My character has an imp because its important to her back story, namely that he possesses the secrets of lichdom and thus the cure for her never-ending paralysis. Meet my character, Hama, the wondering witch (Please note that though she is currently listed as hiving mind blank, she didn'thave it at the time this thread was made and, frankly, I'd much rather have polymorph any object instead with some other method covering the imp).
Ravingdork: Some background on why I have the opinion that I do. Not trying to threadjack, but maybe it will kindle some interest in both of our situations.
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I think the real difference Lune, is I don't go out of my way to be contrary.
I'm sorry to hear that you were forced to deal with such a horribly inconsiderate and disruptive player. From what I've read of the situation, I primarily agree with DrDeth in your first thread about the problematic player. He left similar advice to what I would have.
I agree, RD. I actually spoke with him more in private on the matter.
I question whether you are actually purposefully being contrary or not though. I don't mean that to sound as bad as it likely comes off but from what I have read here ... well, I'll just say that there is at least some evidence to the opposite. Perhaps you do not normally do this, and you are likely not doing it on purpose but it does seem like you are being rather contrary. I'm sure I am bias on this as well, though, due to my experiences. I admit that.
I would wonder your DM's opinion on this though. Has he expressed anything?
I mean, you are creating a character that seems to be a polar opposite to the angelic character concept that you mentioned. Would this not be the equivalent of wanting to create a Necromancer in a party that contains a Paladin? I read your character background and your character stinks of Evil possibly more than a Necromancer would. And if the only options are you two sticking to both of your guns, one getting in, the other getting kicked, it does kinda seem like you are purposefully being contrary. I mean, you seem like you are being contrary for the purpose of being contrary and that you are so fervent in doing so that it may lead to either you or the other player being kicked.
Am I wrong? Did I somehow miss something?
I really do not mean to come off as offensive here, RD. Mostly when I read your stuff I think you would be a great person to play with. However, if it is at the cost of such conflict that it would lead to someone being kicked (or disincluded, w/e) then I don't think it is worth it.
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I did not look into any of the other player's submissions until well after I submitted my own, so I don't see how it could be considered contrary. At worst, I was uninformed.
It's more like one player making a necromancer, then another player coming in a little after and making a paladin. Is it really the necromancer who is being contrary? Or is it the paladin? If neither of them knew about the other's concept initially, then the answer may well be "neither of them are being contrary."
And that's fine, so long as they work it out well in advance and each strive to avoid disruptive conflict within the game itself.
That's the mark of real adults in this hobby I find, when you can work together well despite seemingly contrary concepts.
Maybe try not to over think it. The GM has already declared that he will deal with disruptive players, and we have to trust him to do so fairly, and in each other to not be disruptive to begin with. If there is no trust, then it is highly unlikely to be a successful game.
I do have a reputation on these boards, but I think you will find that my actual play style is VERY different from my posting style.
And you're not coming off as offensive at all, but you do seem a little pushy and/or somewhat paranoid on the matter. With your past history with disruptive players, I suppose that isn't too surprising. I look forward to proving your fears wrong!
I know you've wanted to play Hama for a while RD, so it's nice you've found the chance.
Personally, I would go with the mundane (non-magical) disguise, with maybe a "hide aura" spell cast on it. Either have it disguised as a young human (your "baby") or as an angelic creature (disguise it as a mini-angel). Still, I love the idea of going aasimar and having a "celestial imp".
In any case, good luck. I can understand Lune's paranoia, and it's one of the reasons I insist character creation be done with all the group at the same table.
I didn't want to give up polymorph any object for mind blank, but it looks like I probably should. It seems like the most practical thing to protect both Hama and her familiar from unwanted attention.
There is one other candidate with an angelic character concept who is very much the opposite of mine. We've been in discussion trying to reason out a way for our characters to work together during the game once the imp comes out (if he ever does). It's entirely possible it will all become moot if I don't get in, or if he doesn't get in.
Based on that it does sound like both of you premeditated your character concepts. Perhaps I just misread it? I'm certain there was a miscommunication somewhere in there.
So the DM has declared he will deal with disruptive players. You trust eachother to no be disruptive. What is the DM's opinion on whether or not having the two polar opposite characters together or not will be disruptive? I mean, I have to guess that you thought that it might be at least somewhat disruptive to have an Imp as a familiar or you wouldn't be posting here for advice, right?
If you were in a game with me I would look forward to playing with you as well, RD. However, when dealing with polar opposite characters I have found that sometimes there is just no resolution to in-character conflict. I tend not to play characters that are on an extreme so it has rarely been a problem for me. But you are correct, due to this one particular contrary player it seems that he tries to find the niche in someone's "I can't deal with this" and make a character based on that. It hasn't always been my character as the target. FYI - the last time I DMed and he was one of my players I made 2 rules that kept him in line fairly well: 1. No contrary characters in the party. 2. No evil.
To my knowledge, both characters were submitted without prior knowledge of the other. It was only after they were both submitted and only after a candidate or two voiced some concerns that the talks to make them work out began (and I'm happy to say that they seem to be going well).
Ah. Ok, I understand more now. I had thought the discussion was prior to anyone settling on a character concept and you both dug in your heels.
So, then... if one or the other of you doesn't want to change the character concept and you come to the mutual conclusion that the two characters could not exist in a constructive party together... what then?
I understand that is what you are trying to avoid. I am happy that you are both working towards the same outcome. That is more than I can say from my experiences with such issues. So really the only question you are looking to have answered is: how best to hide it?
I think you have good information already in the post on that. But I think you need to deal with the inevitable question: what happens when it is found out. I think this is important to consider because even with the best defense there are things that can happen that will reveal it. Those things are likely to happen if this campaign goes on for a long time.
Maybe your character's reaction should be something like, "Ohmigosh! It has been an Imp this whole time and I never knew?!" Unless I completely missed the mark after reading your character background (good reading btw) perhaps the least they have to worry about of evilness is your familiar. Your character isn't the nicest person either.
I understand wanting to play a character that really speaks to you, and I certainly play plenty of evil characters myself.
That said, from what you have said I'm not sure the game you seem to be describing is the best one for such an experience. You don't know the players or their characters yet, and your character is certainly outside the mainstream of 'heroic adventurer.'
Mechanically, mind blank is a necessity if you want to pull this off, but it isn't necessarily enough by itself. I would expect long term contact with you and your familiar to open up the possibility of sense motive checks to reveal something is 'off' at the very least, and possible knowledge: the planes as well. Your familiar doesn't have a great disguise skill, so while it will look like whatever you want, it will generally act like an imp.
It seems to me at the point you have to invest a whole lot into protecting yourself from the rest of the party, you might want to rethink your concept and see if there is anyway you can make what you like about it work without being so divisive.
Hama has a tragic past, which played a large role in her becoming evil in the first place. The imp constantly tempting her with promises of immortality, a cure for her incurable disease, and never-ending beauty doesn't help either. Rather than killing or turning Hama over, the player of the goodly character and I have agreed that she instead is going to work towards redeeming Hama; trying to get her out from under the imp's sway. She can't just kill the imp, however, because such as drastic measure would surely cause her to lose Hama forever. So it becomes something of a battle of wills, with an aasimar pulling on Hama's right ear, and an imp pulling on her left. That ought to be a lot of fun for both of us to play out I think. She seems excited about it too.
Whether she redeems Hama or not is largely inconsequential, just like whether or not Hama actually becomes a lich. They are simply artifical constructs to provide the characters motivation for their adventures in the first place. The fact that said constructs are also carefully designed to delay the possibility of a disruptive confrontation between the characters long enough for the game to conclude naturally is a sure sign of the maturity of the players involved. (And really, the only time there could ever be a disruption in a game of readily mutable imagination is when someone with a childish mentality forces it.)
So it sounds like you two have it all figured out now? I like the redemption angle, by the way. I am likely going to try that at first in my game. ...but I expect it to fail. Not just because the character isn't interested in it but the player isn't either.
Was this figured out recently then? Or did you already figure that out prior to coming to the boards?
Hmmm....just read all of the back story above, so below only applies if the back story is changed:
Why not just change the imp's alignment? You're level 16. You've had lots of time to help said imp "see the light". Sentient creatures can vary from standard alignment.
Looking at the Imp's abilities, it doesn't have anything like the Succubus' Profane boost that would be lost by being LN.
Maybe over time, the imps magical nature has caused it to be more reliant on your character's living energy than it's own demonic heritage. Cool opportunities to rescue the imp from grumpy Devils.
Hama has a tragic past, which played a large role in her becoming evil in the first place. The imp constantly tempting her with promises of immortality, a cure for her incurable disease, and never-ending beauty doesn't help either. Rather than killing or turning Hama over, the player of the goodly character and I have agreed that she instead is going to work towards redeeming Hama; trying to get her out from under the imp's sway. She can't just kill the imp, however, because such as drastic measure would surely cause her to lose Hama forever. So it becomes something of a battle of wills, with an aasimar pulling on Hama's left ear, and an imp pulling on her right. That ought to be a lot of fun for both of us to play out I think. She seems excited about it too.
Whether she redeems Hama or not is largely inconsequential, just like whether or not Hama actually becomes a lich. They are simply artifical constructs to provide the characters motivation for their adventures in the first place. The fact that said constructs are also carefully designed to delay the possibility of a disruptive confrontation between the characters long enough for the game to conclude naturally is a sure sign of the maturity of the players involved. (And really, the only time there could ever be a disruption in a game of readily mutable imagination is when someone with a childish mentality forces it.)
Just one caveat, wouldn't it be more appropriate for the Imp to be pulling on the left ear? The left shoulder is that traditional "seating" of the devil. That's why you throw salt there when you spill it, and why it's the phrase "right hand of god" rather than "left hand of god", because the left hand was busy casting death and satan into the fire.
Please excuse my ignorance, Westphalian_Musketeer. I have fixed the error. ;P
Gevaudan: To my knowledge, devils such as imps are literally the physical embodiment of lawful evil and cannot change their alignment any more than a human can change their gender (and yes, I know magic can do both of those things; but just try doing it naturally).
Lune: I started this thread on Thursday around 7pm (Eastern). Our talks began on that same evening around 8pm. By 6pm Friday, we had come to an amiable arrangement. Since then, we've hashed out a few more minor details, but I think the potential problems were largely resolved by Friday night.
I'm not expecting any problems at this time unless someone actively goes out of their way to disrupt the game.
Gevaudan: To my knowledge, devils such as imps are literally the physical embodiment of lawful evil and cannot change their alignment any more than a human can change their gender (and yes, I know magic can do both of those things; but just try doing it naturally).
tl;dr warning!
Yes and no, imo. The mechanics of alignment are weak, and often fall to DM fiat. The flavor supports both outlooks.
In favor of your statement is the fact that all of the lower planes denizens are Evil with a capital E. Thus the vast majority of them are just going to be bad to the bone until smote by an angel.
Also in favor of that statement is the biology of a devil, where in their essence drives them to be evil so that their torments can evolve them into more powerful purveyors of evil. I believe Pathfinder calls it the larval core.
In addition, even the least of the devils have been tortured for vast lengths of time, making them pretty miserable.
OTOH, humans require magic that is not necessarily part of their blood to change gender. Unless the human is a sorceror or oracle type, they need to obtain something not inside of themselves to change gender.
A devil is inherently magical 100% of the time. You take an evil soul, you nestle it in a magic bad guy plane, you torture the crap out of it and you get a lemure. The magical potential for change exists in the essence of the creature, subsumed by the horrid awful evil that biases it.
In addition, Imps are baby devils, second only to Lemures. As you climb the devil hierarchy, it seems like you would become much more entrenched in your Evil nature. Imps and Lemures seem much easier to influence than pit fiends.
As well, your character has a vast power differential over the imp and an arcane bond directly into it's magical nature. I'm assuming you're a sorcerer or wizard and your level is 16 and you're a PC. You are more powerful individually than 99% of the occupants of Hell, you are rarer than 99% of material plane residents and you are instinctively linked to The Imp.
If anything, it makes sense that the Imp would worship you and bend over time to your will, assuming you didn't just want to blow 8k making it happen now.
So why aren't their lots of good guy imps?
I think the only advantage that the Imp has on your character is time. Imps don't shift alignment frequently because most of their best influences are humans who live for 45 years and die spectacularly often at the hands of other Devils. The imp is immortal and playing the long game: worshiping you has less long term value than the value they derive from reporting your soul forfeit and evolving to a better Devil.
But what if you can offer them better value? What if you can protect them after your death? What if you have the raw power to bend their basic nature over time, as "naturally" as anyone can bend a purely magical being?
A cannon example of this is Arueshalae, who took only a dream, a chat with a god and a few years of trying hard to become good.
As a DM, if a play brought me a LG, 16th level, Elf Emperyal Sorceror who was 400 years old and had the imp for 300 of it, I would allow that imp to be any non-chaotic alignment, preferentially LN with a feat opportunity to LG/angelic.
If the player brought me a CN, 1st level, 17 year old, human master summoner (who somehow got an imp), I would start offering the player bonus loots as "gifts" from the imp that really worked, but had evil side effects, probably starting with a partially filled wand of Infernal Healing. The imp is grooming this soul for harvest.
Imps are miserable slaves who are smart enough to know it, unlike the Lemure. They want to be free and prefer to be slave masters, but they can be baited and tricked and cajoled and they are inherently magical by their nature.
In your specific case, I would suggest that your character's suffering awoke the larval core of your imp, it's feels massive remorse and secretly wishes for you to give it a pathway out of Hell. It will never admit this until it is 100% sure it's never going back to Hell.
I dunno about all that. This particular imp is hoping to transform Hama into a horrible instrument of evil that will ultimately spread fear, pain, and death to the living world for a long time to come (and has had miraculous successes towards that endeavor long before the angelic character ever met her). When she is ultimately destroyed, he gets to deliver her powerful soul to hell, where he will surely be granted a higher station (and probably a more powerful form) for his trouble.
Conversely, the angelic character is hoping to deal a great blow to the forces of evil by taking one of their most powerful weapons (Hama) and turning it against them.
Method: Redirect any hatred of your imp to yourself. Make the party sympathize with your pet instead.
(Joke ahead!)
Too late, they are gaming with RD, aren't they?
(end joke)
;-)
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Oh, I see. Your name gets invoked and you pop your head in... ;)
Like I said at the beginning, your pre-existing story doesn't fit much of this well, relegating it to potential future characters, who are more focused on the eternal salvation of one sad little imp.
On the other hand:
What better way for the angelic character to begin converting you than to secretly convert your imp first? the angel also likely has the power and contacts to give the imp an impressive offer, maybe an offer it can't refuse...
The angel could discover your imp and be like, "I convert imps for breakfast...*haughty laugh*". Or perhaps a battle of wits, in which the angel pretends to be horrified, which hatching a complex salvation plot.
Both players should agree to this in advance, since it's a complex story line.
The cool part of this is there's a lot of story ways to go as long as players are in sync irl.
The awkward part is the PvP if it's not negotiated. You generate some mechanically excellent characters and I could easily see a heartbreaking party stomp occur.
PvP will not be tolerated. GM has made it clear that he will pretty much kick anyone who tries.
Keep up Undetectable Alignment to hide alignment all the time, then use mundane disguises against True Seeing. Prehaps disguise as a mephit or something.
True seeing is a hard spell to 'get around' short of spells like Mind Blank. Intentionally so in my opinion.
If you really want PaO you could shell out the 64k for a page of spell knowledge.
If you really want PaO you could shell out the 64k for a page of spell knowledge.
I may have. Sadly, the GM has reduced the starting funds of any character taking most any crafting feat.