RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
We are excited to announce not one but TWO new products this week as part of a new product line debuting this week. Read the full announcement here on our website, but for a quick summation the two new products are as follows:
Ultimate Relationships is a short, inexpensive, general-purpose product describing the relationship system, which you can implement in any campaign, from published Adventure Paths to your homebrew world. This product provides all the essential rules for the system, whether you're building rivalries, romance, or any other kind of abiding partnership. You can use this product by itself, but you'll also need this product to use the expansion modules.
Imperial Relationships is the first add-on module for Ultimate Relationships , bringing you detailed relationship development options for the key NPCs of the Far East Adventure Path. Sure, the published AP has guidelines for building relationships with the Destined Empress, Elven Protector, Mystic Seer, and Caravan Master, but Imperial Relationships takes those opportunities to a whole new level. Future add-on modules for Ultimate Relationships will feature additional NPC relationship opportunities in the Far East Adventure Path and our other Adventure Path Plug-In lines, including not only key NPCs in the published APs but also brand-new NPCs introduced in Legendary Games' Adventure Path Plug-In products!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nice to see this coming out soon! Maybe we'll see more of this Mark Seifter fellow!
This is relevant to my interests. XD
Definitely interesting!
Firstly,
Will either of these products include either mechanics or fluff/inspiration regarding dealing with NPC queens/kings/marital partners to PC rulers, specifically ways in which such characters might be covertly hostile/unfriendly to the king?
In short, will there be stuff for building a situation where the NPC queen wants to kill the PC king?
Secondly,
Will either of these products include mechanics/fluff regarding heirs to the throne, and how they might be used to enhance a campaign and the engrossing of players?
Thirdly,
Will either of these products include mechanics/fluff regarding how the kingdom may react to King-Queen marriages of different races (Human X Elf or Tiefling X Aasimar, etc.), or how kingdoms may react to an heir coming out as either a tiefling or an aasimar?
These are about forming personal connections with NPCs and making the roleplaying between PC and NPC rich and rewarding, rather than about the long-term effects of political alliances via marriage. That said, talking about relationships vis-a-vis kingdoms or relationships vis-a-vis infamy might be good inclusions for relationship plug-ins focused on kingdom-building or piracy.
Fair enough. Guess I'll browse elsewhere.
Wow, just in time my group is just about to wrap up Brinewall castle, hopefully this can add some depth to the relationships with the other NPC's for the rest of the AP.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
|
Just how short is 'short'? 5 pages? 25 pages?
more pertinent to my interests - is the page count sufficient to warrant a print option?
The core rules elements for Ultimate Rulership won't be in print; I think it's about 6 or pages of rules.
The plug-in modules for each AP might be in print; they're kind of on the borderline of being just barely long enough where you could make a print copy, about 20-24 pages, but the economics of printing products at that length is dicey.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
|
Fair enough. Guess I'll browse elsewhere.
You can certainly use the core rules elements to build up rivalries or enmity just as you can romance or camaraderie. That's not the main focus of the initial offering, but it's within the scope of the system and something where we can do more expansions in that direction as we go along.
I suppose if we had a compilation with all the characters from an AP (presuming success warrants), it will make a mammoth volume that could easily be long enough. But that is a maybe for the future!
Somewhat related to the "how short is short" question... how inexpensive is 'inexpensive'? $1? $2? $5?
I'll definitely be getting Ultimate Relationships.
I'm unlikely to get Imperial Relationships since I don't have the far east adventure path (or any of the other adventure paths).
It's possible that you may want to grab the original Imperial Relationships simply to use as an example of how they flesh out. I say this as an avid consumer of RPG products and not as the author (in fact, other than for the fact that they needed to be in two different lines, the examples were, I felt, so helpful, the two products came within inches of being one product). It's one thing to have a robust system to create compelling relationship progressions with tips on how to do it, but examples that a skilled GM can pick apart and use as templates can also be worth their weight in gold, even if you don't use the examples themselves in your game. Ultimately, I'm still happy that they are separate just because that puts the power in your hands to decide whether that's worth it for you!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just picked up both Ultimate Relationships and Imperial Relationships. I really have not gotten into Imperial Relationships, BUT I really like the ideas I see in Ultimate Relationships and have thought a few hacks that would be cool add-ons. So far I am interested and Ultimate Relationships is only $1.99 so I felt is was money well spent.
I just picked up both Ultimate Relationships and Imperial Relationships. I really have not gotten into Imperial Relationships, BUT I really like the ideas I see in Ultimate Relationships and have thought a few hacks that would be cool add-ons. So far I am interested and Ultimate Relationships is only $1.99 so I felt is was money well spent.
Yeah, it's fairly simple and super easy to customize to fit the theme of an individual campaign. I could definitely imagine extra stuff you might insert to add flavor to, in your case, say, a NeoExodus or Obsidian Apocalypse campaign. Imperial might work best for you as an example if you aren't running a far eastern adventure path.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for the shout-out Louis. Both Ultimate Relationships and Imperial Relationships are available RIGHT NOW! Hit up our website for links to all the fine places you can guy them, including right here at Paizo.com!
Will be picking up as soon as it actually hits the Paizo store (sorry, Jason, I'm aware that doing it this way eats into your profits a bit with Paizo's cut, but I prefer to keep all my Pathfinder downloads in one place).
Can't wait to read it!
|
Will be picking up as soon as it actually hits the Paizo store (sorry, Jason, I'm aware that doing it this way eats into your profits a bit with Paizo's cut, but I prefer to keep all my Pathfinder downloads in one place).
Can't wait to read it!
It'll have to wait until payday next Friday for me, but yeah, this is pretty much my exact feelings, too.
(Unless/until there's an Ultimate Legendary season pass/subscription type thing - hint, hint!)
Ultimate and possibly Mythic Monsters for me, too.
I've so far only bought a couple of the Mythic Monster series (basically the ones that are directly useful for my current plotline), but the Ultimate series has, thus far, been exceptional and essential.
Since I GM in a long-standing campaign that predates 3rd Edition D&D, the AP plug-ins are of limited value to me, and my budget is more restricted than it was a few years ago (before child), so I have to ration my RP expenditures.
But I absolutely would subscribe to the Ultimate line like a shot.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
|
Ultimate Relationships and Imperial Relationships now live and ready to go right here on Paizo.com!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm curious:
Which product lines would you like us to offer subscriptions?
When I say "Ultimate Legendary", I mean just that. EVERYTHING. Honestly, the biggest issue I have is reminding myself to go check the new releases to figure out what to buy next, not what do I want - that's pretty much every single release you guys put out. I guess if I had to prioritize then it would be rules content subscriptions (Ultimates, Mythic Minis, Mythic Monsters), over AP support product subscriptions, but the APs are even better after you get done releasing add-ons (see Carrion Crown).
Whatever game design wavelength you and the others at Legendary are operating on, my brain is running on it too.
...waaaait a minute. Scripted events at relationship advancement points, fortune-telling card themes...
Okay, who's been playing Persona? :D
Anyway, well done and I'm hoping for more. You mention "the Lonely Lyrakien" and "the Cassisian Detective" -- will they be part of a future supplement? My gnome in our abortive JR game had his heart set on Spivey.
And what are your priorities for future Relationship plug-ins? Any plans for Kingmaker? ...any possibility of working with other third-party publishers? Because "Zeitgeist Relationships" could be nifty.
...waaaait a minute. Scripted events at relationship advancement points, fortune-telling card themes...
Okay, who's been playing Persona? :D
Anyway, well done and I'm hoping for more. You mention "the Lonely Lyrakien" and "the Cassisian Detective" -- will they be part of a future supplement? My gnome in our abortive JR game had his heart set on Spivey.
And what are your priorities for future Relationship plug-ins? Any plans for Kingmaker? ...any possibility of working with other third-party publishers? Because "Zeitgeist Relationships" could be nifty.
If this sells well enough to warrant the costs (mostly the art I guess), I have stuff for pretty much every notable character (54+ relationship links), including the one you seek (she is The Joke).
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
|
It's a brand new product concept, so we'll see how people respond to it. If it seems popular enough to warrant further expansion, we have plans to proceed with more Far East products and other AP products. It's certainly an area where 3PP crossovers can happen as well.
Okay, well, I got my grubby little mitts on Ultimate Relationships earlier today, and I've had a thorough read through of it. Not going to write a full-blown review at this stage, but here's some first impressions:
Nice job, as usual, Legendary Games.
There's a missing pointer to a page number on page 3 in the middle of the Camaraderie Points section (needs to point to page 5).
I do not understand the reference in the section on Affinities under Ranking Up where it says if a PC has "the same card" as an NPC... I'm guessing that's AP-specific.
This book really, really, really needs a concrete example or two. For example, I have no idea if an NPC should typically become available as a cohort at Rank 4, 7, or 10, or if it's meant to be unique to each NPC, and if it is what factors should influence the rank. And what is a milestone? It seems to just be an opportunity to engage an NPC in non-adventuring conversation to develop the relationship, but it's unclear how to assign them. Should they occur after significant events, or just ad hoc as opportunity arises? Or both? Or am I missing the point?
And lastly, I think there needs to be more guidance on implementing the system in non-AP campaigns. To elaborate, I GM a long-running Forgotten Realms campaign which is rather freeform. Right now my players are engaged in five different plotlines which are different in terms of likely completion time. I really have very little idea on how to introduce this system to the campaign, but I really want to.
That's the "bad". In terms of the "good":
Wow, I see so much potential in this system for codifying the development of relationships that I'm practically shivering with joy (this is not hyperbole, my hands are tingling as I think about it). My players are not traditionally hot on actual roleplaying with my NPCs, and some well-conceived rules on providing tangible benefits to the PCs for their relationships with NPCs is frankly awesome.
I'm currently holding off on buying Imperial Relationships because 1) I don't own Jade Regent, and 2) my budget might not cover it (choice between new gaming computer this month, or get pdf now and gaming computer next month). I will, however, take under advisement recommendations from people here as to whether owning it without Jade Regent is worth it as an example text - yes, I can live without a new gaming rig for a month. I just don't want to without good reason.
Milestones are basically after significant events. You can pace them however you like for your campaign depending on how fast you want relationships to progress. If you aren't running an AP at all and the game is freeform, you can divide the NPCs by plotline (since you said there are 5) instead of part for the freebie camaraderie and then just decide which "part" they are from for the purpose of required camaraderie based on how late they appeared (so, for instance if the party is just meeting them and they're level 15, with the game expected to climax and end at 20, you would use the lowest required camaraderie).
As to whether Imperial is worth it as an example, well, examples are so important that I was pretty close to having them released together, but in the end, we realized they made sense to be separate. Normally I wouldn't suggest getting a $5 pdf over a gaming computer, but since you are literally tingling with anticipation of the potential (that's awesome, btw, and makes me feel really happy as a designer!), you may well consider getting the worked out examples at your fingertips and scavenging them for inspiration for your own relationships!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks, Mark. That certainly gives me some much-needed information. And my better half has pointed out that I shouldn't buy the new computer just yet for various reasons, so if I just move some cash out of savings... well, I was on a tight budget this month, but it seems to be a bit bigger than I initially thought.
My wife is an enabler, it seems.
Anyway, purchase of Imperial Relationships coming right up.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
|
Yay for enablers! :)
Seriously, I think taking a look at Imperial Relationships should really make it come together conceptually.
As Mark said, we were thinking about releasing it as one product, but as we thought about it as the keystone piece to a product line that could be lots of different things, we didn't want to make people have to buy the base rules every time they looked into a new AP, so we decided to break off Ultimate and just make it be its own thing, with the AP modules as separate plug-ins to it.
Thanks, Jason.
Well, I bought Imperial Relationships, and had a quick skim before going to bed (I'm in the UK, before anyone wonders about my bedtime), and even that brief perusal gave me several "aha, so that's how it works.... wow, got to do some work!"
Love it, love it, love it.
The whole system seems to be intimately tied to the concept of the Adventure Path. This makes it not all that useful for people like myself that lay in sand box games. And I can't say that I'm not disappointed as this sounded like a great tool for sandbox games.
There is really a great need to discuss different kinds of relationships in the rules as well. As it stands there is just a 1-10 scale with no actual context as to what that might mean.
I'll keep an eye out for updated/expansions to this rules set in case it develops into something I can use.
The whole system seems to be intimately tied to the concept of the Adventure Path. This makes it not all that useful for people like myself that lay in sand box games. And I can't say that I'm not disappointed as this sounded like a great tool for sandbox games.
There is really a great need to discuss different kinds of relationships in the rules as well. As it stands there is just a 1-10 scale with no actual context as to what that might mean.
I'll keep an eye out for updated/expansions to this rules set in case it develops into something I can use.
Some minor adjustments should make it work perfectly even in a game that doesn't neatly divide into 6 parts (see my most recent post in this thread before this one).
My take on it is basically as follows:
Rank 1-3: Acquaintances. These characters know each other and talk casually, but not really about anything of consequence.
Rank 4-6: Friends. These characters get on well, and will help each other as long as it doesn't require high levels of sacrifice.
Rank 7-9: Close Friends. These characters are strong allies, and will take risks to help each other.
Rank 10: Friends are Family. These characters are as close as friends can get, trust each other implicitly, and will go to the ends of the Earth for each other.
The point of interest is that each rank requires a check to Rank Up, and the GM needs to make the checks varied, interesting, but have no consequence for failure, because the PCs get to try the check again.
I'll be quite honest, it's not easy to come up with some of the detail in advance, particularly if you don't have a clear path for the character. Having a strong background for the character really helps.
If I get the chance, I'll throw up an example character I've been working on (currently figured out Rank 5, so a few more to go) with enough background information to show where she's coming from.
I bought both products last night and I am very happy I did!
The system is both easy to understand and implement. Although Ultimate Relationships stands alone, Imperial Relationships really shows you how the system is used (just by having a reference that implements the system, not a step by step explanation).
I look forward to future AP Plug-Ins for the system, particularly the one for Reign of Winter (or whatever it will be called due to OGL legalities, =)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having just spent a few hours trying to flesh out one of my NPCs using this system, my respect for Mark has increased (and it was pretty damn high to start with!) and his ability to crystallise ideas into concise text frankly leaves me in awe.
I'll definitely post up the full results when I'm finished, but for now, I've taken one of my (many) NPCs who is already flagged as a potential friend, and started creating a full-blown URel write up for her, using the NPCs in Imperial Relationships as a guide. It's bloody hard work! The hardest part has been creating realistic, character-specific rank up scenarios which are both repeatable, and relevant to the character's background and goals, as well as demonstrating a closer bond with the PC as they move up the ranks.
Still, as an exercise in NPC development, it's proving fascinating, and I can't wait to flesh out more of my NPCs like this.
Even if you don't bother using the rules, following this process is an excellent, if time-consuming, tool for GMs.
Harrow Cards. Pick a card for each NPC as a way to keep track of them and add interesting thematic connections. Then pick a card for each PC based on their alignments. Or you can not do that and just ignore that part, whichever works best. For example, the Imperial Relationships examples have cards listed for each NPC, such as The Big Sky for the Destined Empress.
Maybe a short "here's the format" blurb at the start of each AP Relationship book, like there is in the bestiaries?