I'm building a cleric/diabolist for an upcoming evil campaign that should go from 1-20. I'm looking for advice on this particular type of build; I'm not interested in how awesome a reach or battle cleric would be. The mechanical focus is on action economy using standard action summons, imp companion, undead minions, debilitating channel effect, and called outsiders. I'm very curious to see if I missed anything or to know if something might be a better choice than what I originally thought.
A couple options I'm considering:
-Drop channel force, go human, work towards spell perfection on wall of stone or similarly useful spell.
-Only take one level in Diabolist for the imp and not lose out on channel DC, fort save, and BAB but lose out on hellfire damage, and a free feat (which effectively is two from the lack of prerequisite)
The Diabolist class will have to wait until 8th level due to Lesser Planar Ally being a 4th level spell. Unless you do it with a scroll or other means.
I am curious to see where this goes as I am working on a similar character with rolled stats. Core races only. Asmodeus as he is relevant in WotW. Str 8, Dex 9, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 18, Chr 13
If your GM allows, Fiendish Vessel Tiefling racial archetype (ARG) is amazing. Heal allies and harm enemies simultaneously. D4 instead of d6 on channels though.
You can become a Diabolist using a scroll. If you do, you can enter the class as early as 6th level. I'm not sure how the OP is entering it at 5th, though -- you need 5 ranks in Knowledge [planes] and Spellcraft.
The Rulership variant dazes, which is great, but only for one round, which is less great. It sounds like you're playing Way of the Wicked. Do you know what the rest of the party looks like yet?
1) take eldritch heritage (arcane) for a familiar. Depending on your style it is possible to add further action economy with this or simply shore a weakness. Could add scouting as well.
2) is the deity open? The principle reason I ask because is because Dispater would mechanically fit your character a little better. If your willing to part with travel domain Dispater keeps your devil domain and brings trickery/deception as a worthy replacement. Getting bluff, disguise, and stealth as class skills on top of getting mirror image as domain spell is great.
3) i would back down on the wisdom just a bit. Because your going to be doing some archery I'd dial down wisdom to 14+2 and increase dex from 10 to 14. This would increase accuracy, saves, AC, initiative, stealth skills, and so on. Plus as it lies you can't take, I think, ANY of the the archery feats without some money being burned. The extra spell of a 16+2 won't come into effect for many levels and your actions you desire don't need another +1 to DC.
4) I know you said you want to play the way you posted but honestly you need quick channel in there somewhere.
5) again I know you said you want to be the way you are but... Have you considered playing a cleric of Ra? Assuming you want your stats because it makes you happy, With your current stat array you could be a fireball wielding beast instead of burning feats on subpar archery. Sacred summons suffers unless GM allows celestial or other template is the only downside.
1) take eldritch heritage (arcane) for a familiar. Depending on your style it is possible to add further action economy with this or simply shore a weakness. Could add scouting as well.
I don't have the feats available for this, nor do I see a value in getting a familiar aside from the feat equivalent bonuses. There will be enough paperwork to deal with between the companion, summoned monsters, and anything I decide to reanimate.
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
2) is the deity open? The principle reason I ask because is because Dispater would mechanically fit your character a little better. If your willing to part with travel domain Dispater keeps your devil domain and brings trickery/deception as a worthy replacement. Getting bluff, disguise, and stealth as class skills on top of getting mirror image as domain spell is great.
I looked at Dispater also. The extra class skills are worthless since 2+INT, but mirror image is sexy.
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
3) i would back down on the wisdom just a bit. Because your going to be doing some archery I'd dial down wisdom to 14+2 and increase dex from 10 to 14. This would increase accuracy, saves, AC, initiative, stealth skills, and so on. Plus as it lies you can't take, I think, ANY of the the archery feats without some money being burned. The extra spell of a 16+2 won't come into effect for many levels and your actions you desire don't need another +1 to DC.
I will not be doing archery at all. The imp companion will be.
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
4) I know you said you want to play the way you posted but honestly you need quick channel in there somewhere.
Yea, I had completely forgotten about that and will likely fit it in at 7th level or 5th level if I go human.
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
5) again I know you said you want to be the way you are but... Have you considered playing a cleric of Ra? Assuming you want your stats because it makes you happy, With your current stat array you could be a fireball wielding beast instead of burning feats on subpar archery. Sacred summons suffers unless GM allows celestial or other template is the only downside.
The character's personality is going to require worship of a deity from Hell. I have zero interest in throwing fireballs. Also, see above about the archery.
You can become a Diabolist using a scroll. If you do, you can enter the class as early as 6th level. I'm not sure how the OP is entering it at 5th, though -- you need 5 ranks in Knowledge [planes] and Spellcraft.
The Rulership variant dazes, which is great, but only for one round, which is less great. It sounds like you're playing Way of the Wicked. Do you know what the rest of the party looks like yet?
Doug M.
I'm assuming I'll be able to have called a devil by level 5, but if not, it's not a huge loss to wait.
I have glanced at the guide, but it's not particularly relevant since I'm only dipping into the PrC for the imp companion and the feat and the flavor.
I have no idea what the rest of the party will look like. We aren't starting until January and I'm just being overzealous in my preparation.
I have glanced at the guide, but it's not particularly relevant since I'm only dipping into the PrC for the imp companion and the feat and the flavor.
Note that you also get the Hellfire power, which is great for blasting good-aligned creatures. If you're playing Way of the Wicked, there will be a lot of those.
The Cha-check bonus and the chance to get half price devils via Planar Ally is no big thing at low and medium levels, but if you play up to 11th level it starts getting good, and beyond 15th level it's actually kind of amazing.
Do note that if you never go past 3rd level in Diabolist, you will stay Damned. So anyone trying to raise you from the dead will have to roll a check to succeed, and if they fail they lose the cost of the spell. Make sure the rest of the party knows this, and/or have an emergency cash reserve in case they fail.
Note that you also get the Hellfire power, which is great for blasting good-aligned creatures. If you're playing Way of the Wicked, there will be a lot of those.
The Cha-check bonus and the chance to get half price devils via Planar Ally is no big thing at low and medium levels, but if you play up to 11th level it starts getting good, and beyond 15th level it's actually kind of amazing.
Do note that if you never go past 3rd level in Diabolist, you will stay Damned. So anyone trying to raise you from the dead will have to roll a check to succeed, and if they fail they lose the cost of the spell. Make sure the rest of the party knows this, and/or have an emergency cash reserve in case they fail.
Hellfire is definitely a nice perk, but not what I'm focusing on. It certainly make flaming sphere and the like more appealing.
I've never called an outsider before, and I'm quite concerned that the GM could easily screw me over with it.
I'm ok with being Damned. If my life mission is to serve Hell, it fits the flavor tremendously.
Sry thought you had archery instead of imp. My last advice is still back down on wisdom just a little bit but it isn't essential. I personally prefer to always have basic martial competency of 14 strength or similar defensive attributes.
The DM can screw you over about nine different ways with Planar Binding. Planar Ally is a different spell. There, the DM doesn't have to do anything -- it's the rules that screw you! From the Guide to the Diabolist:
Why Planar Binding is a Better Spell than Planar Ally:
With Planar Ally, you get an outsider who has been sent by your god. The outsider arrives friendly or helpful, is willing to work with you, and is not going to seek revenge unless you do something grossly stupid or offensive. That’s nice! However, it leads to some problems.
Problem #1: you don’t get the outsider you call for! You get whatever outsider the god sends you. Problem #2: you can ONLY get an outsider of your god’s alignment (or, if you don’t have a god, your own alignment).
Those are bad enough. But then we have the kicker: “The creature called requires a payment for its services… this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services.” How much? “A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to 1 day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.”
Let that sink in: if you want the outsider to accompany you into the dungeon today, it’s 500 gp/HD. Or more, “if the task is especially hazardous”. To be fair, there is a discount clause: “if the task is strongly aligned with the creature's ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.” But “strongly aligned with the creature’s ethos” is a pretty stringent requirement, one that clearly goes well beyond “be my bodyguard” or “help me kill the monsters and take their stuff”. It’s not entirely clear what “ethos” means here, but I’d say it means you have to closely match some combination of the creature’s alignment and its personality.
[Skip discussion of why Planar Binding is better]
To be fair, at higher levels the balance partly rights itself. Creature power increases exponentially with HD, so 16,000 gp for a 16 HD creature is a much better deal than 4,000 gp for a 4 HD creature. And then of course, when you’re 16th level, 8,000 gp/day is much easier to find. But even at high levels, the greater flexibility of Planar Binding gives it the edge; even putting the money issue aside, it’s better to be able to summon any outsider of your choice (though hostile) then to have access to only outsiders of a particular alignment and not of your choice (though friendly).
Finally, let’s note that there are some workarounds to paying the piper. Infernal Bargain [one of the Diabolist class attributes] lets you cut the cost in half with an opposed Cha check; “follow me around the dungeon today” drops to 250 gp/HD, which starts being a good deal around CR 11 or so. The Planar Negotiator aasimar racial trait can shave another 10% off the cost. And the Agonize spell (3rd level) lets you cut the price by an additional 20% to 60%. Of course, that’s at the cost of annoying the creature and making it your enemy, thus neutralizing Planar Ally’s biggest advantage.
I would nuance this a bit. The good news is, this is a straight cash-for-services transaction. The GM can't really screw you under RAW... you give the creature a pile of cash, and it does what you ask. Also, the creature is serving your god, so it shouldn't attack you, randomly betray you, or hold a grudge against you for being called. This is presumably part of its job description! (This is in contrast to Planar Binding, where the creature is being yanked to the material plane by main force, and is most definitely unhappy about it.) So, the worst the GM can legally do is refuse to give you an "aligned with the creature's ethos" discount. Which, honestly, you shouldn't expect anyhow, unless you're doing something that's REALLY aligned with its ethos -- burning down the local Temple of Chaotic Good Lovable Rule-Breakers and selling the survivors into slavery, or some such.
Now, Lesser Planar Ally is a 4th level spell, so at 7th level you could call a 6 HD lawful evil outsider -- a Bearded Devil, say -- to serve you for seven hours for 3,000 gp, or for a week for 6,000 gp. Halve those prices if you make the Cha check, which if you don't gank Cha you should do about 2/3 of the time. (Remember, as a Diabolist you'll get +2 from Fiendish Charisma when calling devils.)
Is this a good deal? I'd say it is kinda meh, rising to okay/good if you know you have a combat-packed couple of dungeon crawls ahead, where that week in game time may stretch across several sessions and carry you up a level or more.
But! At 11th level you get access to the full Planar Ally spell. Now you can call a creature of up to 12 HD for up to 12 hours for 6,000 gp, or up to 12 days for 12,000 gp. This is actually a much better deal -- you're paying more, but the creature is far more powerful. And then at 15th level, woot! You can use Greater Planar Ally to call a frickin' CR 19 Immolator Devil to follow you around for 15 days for a mere 18,000 gp. This is excellent and, should you get that far, totally worth the money.
TLDR: Don't worry too much about your DM and this spell. Lesser Planar Ally is meh, Planar Ally is good, Greater Planar Ally is the s~#%.
Oh, and the Devil subdomain gives you Planar Binding. So from 11th to 15th level you can do Planar Ally and/or Planar Binding. This is pretty nice. Planar Binding is a different and trickier spell -- it's free, you don't pay for the creature's services, and it's bound to serve you, but it hates and resents you and the DM can mess you over a bunch of different ways. If you make it work, though, it can be great. Read DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding, and proceed with care.
Of course, none of these will be issues until you reach at least 8th level, which would be like next summer or something. Get your low-level builds right first, and survive.
