What is this "Hunter and the Druid Hand Language" you speak of?
anyone can learn sign language for a language by putting a skill into linguistics.
I would imagine the Druidic language is limited specifically to just Druids (or someone who took levels in Druid). Even though the Hunter is a combo of Druid and Ranger, they still are not Druids (at least in the minds of the Druids). GM fiat would likely be the rule of the land for this one.
I would imagine if Paizo wanted Hunters to have access to Druidic, they would have added that in. Just my two coppers.
Only druids can learn druidic unless taught by a druid, who subsequently ceases to be a druid.
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A hunter (mechanically) could be inducted into a druidic order, in which case he would be a druid, in character, and could be safely taught the druidic language.
Couldn't any character with access to tongues write out a Druidic-Common dictionary and then take druidic on their next linguistics skill point?
Couldn't any character with access to tongues write out a Druidic-Common dictionary and then take druidic on their next linguistics skill point?No. Druids are quite aware that arcane magicians exist as well as other types of spellcasters who can cast such magic and simply don't use the language in circumstances that outsiders might pick up. Druidic is not a language for casual conversation... it is for discussing deep and private matters in the faith. Heck in my worlds, Druids of different orders don't even have the same Druidic language!
The text is clear, there is no class feature in the Hunter that grants access to the language, so they don't get it.
Tongues lets you speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature. Does that not also let you speak in druidic simply if you want to? Could you not then logically teach yourself the language by writing out a dictionary while under the effects of the tongues spell, then studying the dictionary while not under the tongues spell, allowing you to learn the druidic langauge after spending a point of linguistics to learn it? Sorry, this is kind of off topic.
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Whether it was by secrelty observing druids in their natural habitat, or laboriously interpreting some text written in the druidic language, anyone can learn Druidic in Golarion by spending 1 point in linguistics.
Of course the consequences of such an act could be dire.
On the other hand, Hunters cast druid spells. Hunters have an obvious bond with nature in their companion, and can summon woodland creatures.
If a hunter spoke druidic and claimed to be a druid, I'm sure no one would ever know as long as they didn't do something stupid to give it away like wearing metal armor.
"BY RAW" means nothing as an argument. BY RAW, there is nothing that says that dead people can't play the oboe either.
When it comes to Linguistics, I will restrict the languages available if the character has absolutely no contact with them, or ways of researching them.. Androffan being a good example in most cases. Drow Sign Language being another if the character has never been underground.
Would you allow anyone with access to tongues to "study" any language using the method I described above?
"BY RAW" means nothing as an argument. BY RAW, there is nothing that says that dead people can't play the oboe either.When it comes to Linguistics, I will restrict the languages available if the character has absolutely no contact with them, or ways of researching them.. Androffan being a good example in most cases. Drow Sign Language being another if the character has never been underground.
Would you prefer the use of by the rules?
Also pretty sure dead people get no actions and it takes an action to start to play the oboe, and an action (even if a free one) to continue playing. Ergo dead people can not play the oboe.
Oddly enough, that is not spelled out in the dead condition. That is why it is a frequent example of assumed things in a condition.
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
So how about you seek out a level 4 loremaster who took druidic as his bonus language to teach you? Does that work?
Dead is a more drastic version of dying which specifically calls out the lack of actions.
But once you are dead you are no longer dying.
Its like frightened is a more severe version of panicked. Once you are frightened you don't need to look at the panicked condition anymore, you only look at the frightened condition.
And yet, RAW is you just put a point into linguistics and pick Druidic. Done.
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Tongues lets you speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature. Does that not also let you speak in druidic simply if you want to? Could you not then logically teach yourself the language by writing out a dictionary while under the effects of the tongues spell, then studying the dictionary while not under the tongues spell, allowing you to learn the druidic langauge after spending a point of linguistics to learn it? Sorry, this is kind of off topic.
From PRD:
Re-training New Language
You can spend time to learn an additional language. It takes 20 days of training to gain a bonus language, and these days need not be consecutive. Each language requires a trainer who shares a language with you and knows the language you want to learn, or a book written in a language you know that explains the basics of the language you want to learn.
The new language does not count toward your maximum number of languages (racial languages + bonus languages from Intelligence + Linguistics ranks). You can train this way only a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence bonus.
You need an active teacher to take 20 days. I would suspect hanging around them secretly and only listening would take an enormous amount of time. Strictly RAW, you cannot learn it without being a druid. The mechanics don't support it. so for a rules question, no
Tongues lets you speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature. Does that not also let you speak in druidic simply if you want to? Could you not then logically teach yourself the language by writing out a dictionary while under the effects of the tongues spell, then studying the dictionary while not under the tongues spell, allowing you to learn the druidic langauge after spending a point of linguistics to learn it? Sorry, this is kind of off topic.
From PRD:
Re-training New Language
You can spend time to learn an additional language. It takes 20 days of training to gain a bonus language, and these days need not be consecutive. Each language requires a trainer who shares a language with you and knows the language you want to learn, or a book written in a language you know that explains the basics of the language you want to learn.
The new language does not count toward your maximum number of languages (racial languages + bonus languages from Intelligence + Linguistics ranks). You can train this way only a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence bonus.
You need an active teacher to take 20 days. I would suspect hanging around them secretly and only listening would take an enormous amount of time. Strictly RAW, you cannot learn it without being a druid. The mechanics don't support it. so for a rules question, no
With tongues you could teach someone else, because you speak the language. Once they know it, then they teach you it when you don't have tongues up.
And yet, RAW is you just put a point into linguistics and pick Druidic. Done.The linguistics entry in the PRD says Druid Only
Yes, it says that is the typical speakers of it. Just because celestial is (angels and other good outsiders) doesn't mean that you can't pick celestial if you aren't an angel or good outsider.
I was under the impression that a point in linguistics only allowed you to add a language that you have access to, either by race or class. A DM could rule that you have access to a new language through other means, a resource person, books, etc, but not to just any language simply because it exists.
"Learn a Language: Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language. Common languages (and their typical speakers) include the following."
RAW you just pick off the list. Of course, GM can always houserule this to languages you have access to.
"Learn a Language: Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language. Common languages (and their typical speakers) include the following."
RAW you just pick off the list. Of course, GM can always houserule this to languages you have access to.
I think Tarantula may be right. GM's always make the final call, but people do figure out languages from scraps of text and related languages. It seems very reasonable and feasible to learn Druidic without being a Druid. Druidic is not described as magical or supernatural language, just secret. Having the ability to cast comprehend languages and share a telepathic bond with someone who does not (with skill in linguistics to develop a dictionary) is all you need as long as you have a speaker to listen to. A druid doesn't lose druid status if they accidentally speak druidic in front of unknown listeners or if compelled against their will. You could use ghost sounds and an illusion, charm a druid, dominate a druid, spy on them as an animal, spy invisibly, scry, etc. As tongues confers the ability to speak and understand a language, even under a babel fish assumption, people who do not have the spell hear druidic. Tongues does not scramble or code language.
The whole secrecy thing with the druidic language in pathfinder goes back to the cultural tradition of mainland celtic druids (as opposed to Irish druids) who opposed writing down their culture, ideas and beliefs in words because it weakened the memory - at least from their perspective; druids in mainland Europe maintained an oral tradition, which is why the documents we possess today concerning mainland druids were not written by druids themselves, usually in Latin or sometimes Greek.
While I do feel there is nothing restricting it rules-wise, I feel that knowing Druidic is not something you advertise. Druids jealously guard the secret, and I feel like its a "1st rule of Fight Club" type rule. Those who learn the secret will be monitored (by animal spies or what have you), and once their motives are determined, Druids will start damage control by limiting influence, destroying documentation, and either compelling or eliminating the outsider who has discovered their secret. I personally try to incorporate language learning into RP, and Druidic is special enough to warrant at least an encounter, if not an adventure (and that's not including consequences).
I believe the (only) specification in the linguistics skill is intended to indicate that you cannot learn it without something special going on. Of course all languages are highly setting specific, with those listed being a generic example (as an example, Golarion has quite a few other languages and common is in fact Taldane).
It is entirely reasonable for a GM to restrict linguistics points to languages that a character can obtain training and instruction in, or is heavily exposed to. I would never let a character just put a point into lingustics to learn druidic (although in truth, I don't think I have ever seen druidic used at all in a game, either one I played in or one I ran).
Tongues won't help a all. It would let you understand a druid who was speaking in druidic, but otherwise it won't do much for you. As I read it, it lets you speak THE language of the creature you are addressing, which presumably means its native language. Certainly tongues does not give the power to create primers any language you can imagine. It magically allows communication, it doesn't impart knowledge.
So how about you seek out a level 4 loremaster who took druidic as his bonus language to teach you? Does that work?And how did the Loremaster learn Druidic? Everything happens in context. The advances you gain in leveling assume that you've been working on them, such work is abstracted for the ease of play, but that doesn't mean you get to ignore serious prohibitions.
The loremaster is able to pick ANY new language without limitation at 4th and 8th level. Presumably because loremasters are obsessed with research and study. To the point that he can make knowledge checks untrained.
Its like asking how does a wizard learn 2 new spells when he levels up. He just gets to.
Anyone ignoring the 'druid only' portion of the linguistics skill is not following RAW or (IMO) RAI.
There is a big difference between 'druids' and 'druids only'.
Just like there would have been if it was 'angels and other good outsiders only' instead of just 'angels and other good outsiders'.Druidic is denoted differently for a reason.
"Learn a Language: Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language. Common languages (and their typical speakers) include the following."
The typical speakers of Druidic is only druids. That is how I read it based on the example parenthesis given in the header before the list.
If they wanted druidic to not be an option then they should have left it off the "learn a language" table entirely.
Druids automatically learn druidic upon 1st level. There is no need for druidic to be listed on the table if it is not an option to learn with the linguistics skill.
As it is the only source of languages in the Core book... its kind of necessary to list all languages there.
Again, the fact its the only one that specifies 'only' is kind of telling. There would have been no reason to state that otherwise.
Only druids are the typical speakers of druidic. Why do you not agree that is what is meant in the way it is listed?
Druidic the language is also listed under the druid class feature bonus languages. If druidic was so secret, why not leave it only listed there, and not in the list of "learn a language"?
Because then it would have just said 'druids'... just like every other line on that same table.
Instead it says: only druids, and is the only line in the table to make that very important distinction.
Why do you not agree that it might be different for a reason?
Since you're the only one here arguing the contrary... I'm going to just assume you're not going to change your mind, and leave it at that.
Because if they wanted it to mean something different, they should have been more different in how it is listed. Something like:
Druidic (only druids can learn this language)
Actually I agree with Tarantula, if it's not a valid choice for the skill it shouldn't be on the table. It could have just as easily been left as a druid class ability. Also note drow, which is also secret is on the list as well.
Honestly taking drow sign is actually one of the best skill points spent. It gives you and your party a nearly private silent language. I try to convince all the parties I'm in to invest in the language. If you use the extended languages fail snail is a good one too.
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Honestly taking drow sign is actually one of the best skill points spent. It gives you and your party a nearly private silent language. I try to convince all the parties I'm in to invest in the language. If you use the extended languages fail snail is a good one too.
Indeed.
Why do the Drow have the monopoly on nonverbal languages for humanoids?
Maybe there's never been a need for one? Cure deafness is a 3rd level spell that doesn't cost the caster anything, so it's the kind of thing that a lot of churches will probably do for charity at no cost.
If you really want druidic as a non-druid, there are rules for that.
It's a bit more than just one rank in Linguistics. Druidic isn't available as an option for a bonus language for most people.
There's a feat whose only purpose is to let you learn Druidic as a non-druid.
That feat adds it to the bonus languages available to you.
Either you can only select from your bonus languages when you put a point into linguistics (not explicitly stated in the skill) or you can select from all of the listed languages in the linguistics skill.
So, either you are always limited by the languages of your race and classes, or you aren't. I don't think that race/class limits all closable languages, so all this feat does is allow a starting 10th level+ character to pick druidic as one of the bonus languages the character gets for a high intelligence score. The feat is completely silent about what languages you can pick from by spending a point on the linguistics skill.
There's a feat whose only purpose is to let you learn Druidic as a non-druid.That feat adds it to the bonus languages available to you.
Either you can only select from your bonus languages when you put a point into linguistics (not explicitly stated in the skill) or you can select from all of the listed languages in the linguistics skill.
So, either you are always limited by the languages of your race and classes, or you aren't. I don't think that race/class limits all closable languages, so all this feat does is allow a starting 10th level+ character to pick druidic as one of the bonus languages the character gets for a high intelligence score. The feat is completely silent about what languages you can pick from by spending a point on the linguistics skill.
That's actually incorrect. Instances of that, such as for the druid, cleric and wizard all say: "This choice is in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of her race." (Wizard instead says "substitutes") It isn't the same language.
You're also really not considering at all that it's a "secret language" and "druid only." That text is there for a reason.
There's a feat whose only purpose is to let you learn Druidic as a non-druid.That feat adds it to the bonus languages available to you.
Either you can only select from your bonus languages when you put a point into linguistics (not explicitly stated in the skill) or you can select from all of the listed languages in the linguistics skill.
So, either you are always limited by the languages of your race and classes, or you aren't. I don't think that race/class limits all closable languages, so all this feat does is allow a starting 10th level+ character to pick druidic as one of the bonus languages the character gets for a high intelligence score. The feat is completely silent about what languages you can pick from by spending a point on the linguistics skill.
That's actually incorrect. Instances of that, such as for the druid, cleric and wizard all say: "This choice is in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of her race." (Wizard instead says "substitutes") It isn't the same language.
You're also really not considering at all that it's a "secret language" and "druid only." That text is there for a reason.
So what other bonus languages are there? There are the racially provided bonus languages. And class bonus languages which add to the racial ones. The feat you posted, adds druidic to the list of bonus languages. Thats it.
The bonus languages are picked for having a high intelligence score.. Beyond that, learning a language is only done via putting a point in linguistics. Each point lets you learn a language. So, with the feat you listed, if you had an INT of 12. You could have 1 bonus language. Lets say you're a human, so you get Common and one bonus language of your choice. You pick elven. Great.
Now, you adventure and level to 10, and you like languages, so you end up maxxing out your linguistics skill. That gives you 10 additional languages. So now we have this for languages spoken.
Common (bonus)
Elven (bonus)
Abyssal (learned)
Aklo (learned)
Aquan (learned)
Auran (learned)
Celestial (learned)
Draconic (learned)
Dwarven (learned)
Giant (learned)
Gnome (learned)
Gnoll (learned)
Great. Now you level to 11, and take Druidic Decoder. You have 10 points of linguistics, so Druidic is added to the bonus languages list for you. I'm going to assume you don't put a point in linguistics now.
Now you find a tome of clear thought +2 int. You get some extra skill points to assign, and pick another Bonus language. Now you can pick druidic! Good for you.
Yes, its a secret language. But its not like its unknown. You can find druidic writing. You can evesdrop on druids talking. You can find a loremaster who can pick from any language at level 4. There are ways to learn the language outside of "be a druid and get it for free".
Whether it was by secrelty observing druids in their natural habitat, or laboriously interpreting some text written in the druidic language, anyone can learn Druidic in Golarion by spending 1 point in linguistics.Of course the consequences of such an act could be dire.
On the other hand, Hunters cast druid spells. Hunters have an obvious bond with nature in their companion, and can summon woodland creatures.
If a hunter spoke druidic and claimed to be a druid, I'm sure no one would ever know as long as they didn't do something stupid to give it away like wearing metal armor.
Well, it is a bit more complicated than that. It would be that they have to cast a druid spell that rangers cannot cast, since they could be ranger 4+/druid 1.
There is even a precedent for heavy metal druid- followers of Gorum can keep their wildshape ability even if they use metal armor. Obviously spells are out, which is typically fine for gorum follwers. Basically, Gorum just nods in approval of full plate wearing tigers ripping people's heads off. (this kind of tweak comes from stuff like Inner Sea gods and other sources; check out Deities section here to find other tweaks like how Pharasma switches out the 'making undead' stuff from the death domain.)
Given the wording here, I would argue that this a) conveys no abilities with regards to literacy (i.e., it doesn't say anything that gives me reason to believe that you can write down anything in that language, or read it), and b) doesn't actually grant you the ability to understand the language itself as a thing, only to map words spoken in that language to meanings and meanings in your head to words spoken in that language. It's a bit hand-wavy, but think of it like a Babel Fish that only requires the Babel Fish to be in one person's ear--rather than hearing a language being spoken that you don't understand, you hear Common, and whenever you speak to that person/thing intending to understand it, it magically turns into some language that person/thing understands even though you're hearing yourself speak Common.
This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect.
I have become addicted to reading Japanese webnovels via machine transltors like Google Translate.... and honestly, I would say that you would have a VERY rough time trying to do this without any understanding of the inflection, subtle word choice ques, and grammatical structure. And heck, just try understanding metaphors and compound words (going back to words we recognize, "hippopotamus" means "horse of the river", which comes from the fact that their head looks horse-like when it is mostly covered in water).
I often have to pass the same phrase through 3-4 different translating machines just to get a gist of what it says. And even then, I am usually using context cues from the more comprehensible bits.
Druidic might well also be purposefully complicated, since it is a 'secret' language after all, and meant to resist attempts to understand it. It could follow rules of Cokney Rhyming slang ('Put up your Dukes' was derived from the work 'Forks', which is simple enough slang for hands, which was put through a rhyming rule- 'Fork' rhymes with 'York', which brings up the 'Duke of York'. Thus, 'Put up your Dukes'. Yes, it is purposefully complicated and arbitrary). Thus, your words might not mean what you think they mean, and only reveal their proper meaning in context. Admittedly, I would imagine Druidic would have more animal, plant, and phenomenon based terms...
I know all this has little to do with mechanics...but they are reasonable justifications for a GM to say 'no.'