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I'm not sure the medium needs to have fewer or simpler spirits (although I would appreciate either).
I feel like it really needs some sort of chart to help track down which spirit you want. If I were building a medium off d20pfsrd, it'd probably work fine.
A chart in the book laying out the general abilities (name, alignment, attribute, and flavor) of the different spirits would be a huge help. Something like the feat chart or the charts at the back of Inner Sea Gods.
Cheers!
Landon
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I have no problem with the number of spirits..would rather not see them decreased, and would hope that others would be added over time.
Not a fan of the idea of increasing BA....I'm fine with pinch hitting as melee with a Medium...but would hate to loose flexibility by it becoming the expected party role.
I think the problems people have with the class is that:
a) All other 4 level spellcasters (Bloodrager, Paladin, Ranger) are full bab d10 classes. It breaks the current precedent set by other classes.I think people would be okay with it being 6 level spellcasting rather than BAB but I admit I would like one of the psychic classes to be the 'Front line' Class and with Medium armor and 4 spell level progression it fits that niche. Though if it did go full BAB I would support switching the attack bonus from strength to a CMB bonus so it is not just the obvious choice.
b) The Class is back loaded. Levels 1-7 are a bit of a drag.
This again plays into the increase BAB / Spellcasting just to give it more staying power. Another option would be to give the spirits 3+CHA per day abilties but it is already looking like a bit of book filler with content so adding more would not be a great idea
c) WALL OF TEXT! ZOMG 54 spirits
I can understand the argument. With 54 spirits each with 4 powers, boon, spellcasting, description, bonus and compulsion that is a lot of text. However like most I like the idea of a lot of options for my class so to me this is fine but I do understand the argument and I think Mark might get attacked by the Editor (CR 30 Book God) regarding spacing issue.
I don't believe adding more trance opportunities would necessarily fix the issue of things to do. While it would add more potential to use powers other than the sometimes very lackluster lesser powers, being able to trance more would also mean you'd get influence quicker. Sure you could always trance another spirit, instead of boosting the one that is acting as your primary, but then you just have two lesser powers and really, not that much more punch than you had previously compared to boosting your primary. Even with having 2/day trance at the start would mean that it's entirely possible that you become NPC for a day very quickly. Again, you could use other spirits in trance, but in many occasions you probably will not.
In addition, while you can be somewhat successful in martial combat with STR spirit, this means that you will be locked into using only one spirit type until you get dual spirit, if you want to be reasonably good in combat. Or use one of the ones that count as STR spirit in addition to it's own type. Full BaB would help in giving more open options to not just favour STR type, and give psychic types a frontliner option.
Perhaps one way to deal with the danger of influence would be to give some sort of ability that would "vent" influence, in exchange for some sort of shorter term negative, that doesn't involve character getting removed from players hands for extended period.
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Seeing a lot of people talk about taking combat feats that will be useless on another day. When I was designing a 15th level Medium, I actually sat there unsure of where to start when it was time to pick Feats, because of exactly this sort of situation. Curious what other people think about solid feat choices for a class that rotates its role so often.
What I wound up doing was taking the Barroom Brawler feat that lets you have access to a single combat feat for a minute (at least a full combat), that you qualify for pre-reqs for. It seems like a strong, natural match for the changing nature of the class, even if it doesn't help the pre-req issue.
Improved Init also seemed more necessary than ever, so that your character can trance early in the combat.
Toughness helped counterbalance the hit die and Harrowed really fit with the flavor of the class, as well as my character concept. Felt the need to give her Combat Casting as well since many spirits provide spells that could be useful in combat, but there's also a strong melee focus from the physical spirits.
My other choices were more flavor based for my particular build, but I'm interested in what other people are pairing with the class.
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Two throw a few more cents in...
I like the idea of keeping 54 Spirits. You cannot defeat me with variety.
That said, I think some of the bookkeeping would be simplified if some abilities were driven off of spirits known, rather than spirits active. (That would probably require lowering the total number of spirits known, though.) Then less is changing every day.
I think someone else suggested it, but what if Charisma spirits gave you additional Spells per day? (Scaling the same way the other ability score bonuses, with each additional being an additional Spell level.) That would give you the ability to start casting spells at 1st level, if that's the way you wanted to build your character.
This isn't an issue now with the limited spirit selection we have at the moment, but will spirits need to match each other's alignments *exactly* to use them together, or will sharing one of the facets be enough? I ask because I worry a little bit that combos that work right now in the playtest might not work in final because what looks now like three Neutral spirits end up being Chaotic Neutral, True Neutral, and Lawful Neutral, and so unable to be used together.
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If the class were full BAB, and you didn't focus on Strength spirits, you'd basically have a class with good hit points and CMD. That hardly seems gamebreaking. On the pro side, the full BAB makes sense from a balance standpoint, as this is a class that is likely to be either a self-buffing beater or built around esoteric non-combat tricks. On the against side, it seems to go against the grain; this is a skilled, more intuitive character, like a bard, rogue, or oracle, and should have BAB in line with similar archetypes.
I'm wondering if some of the more combat-oriented spirits could grant "flurry of blows" type BAB replacement, or a doubled seance bonus to hit, or something along those lines.
I know it would make the class more shaman-like, but it seems to me it would be a LOT simpler to let second and third spirits simply grant their abilities. The seance bonus is already relatively static as it is.
My, the discussion about this class has certainly progressed since I last posted! I'm firmly in the camp for keeping all 54 spirits; I love variety in builds.
Still, I stand by giving the class full BAB, since I'm not sure an increased number of trances would fix the problem of the lack of stuff to do at early levels. I love the Soulknife, and I think it would be cool to see a "psychic martial" character among the new classes. If nothing else, it might make a cool archetype, perhaps? :)
Mark, what kind of bonus is granted by The Hidden Truth's intermediate ability, Hidden Knowledge? Is it intended to stack with the spirit bonus? As it currently reads I think it might be an untyped bonus.
(e.g. do you get triple your bonus on knowledge skills?)
You add a total of double your spirit bonus (still, that's +6 (or more with the spirit specialization) to all Knowledge checks at level 8, which is pretty swanky!). Spirit bonuses don't stack unless they say so (like how Owl's to-hit and damage against fragile stack with Str).
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You add a total of double your spirit bonus (still, that's +6 (or more with the spirit specialization) to all Knowledge checks at level 8, which is pretty swanky!). Spirit bonuses don't stack unless they say so (like how Owl's to-hit and damage against fragile stack with Str).Mark, what kind of bonus is granted by The Hidden Truth's intermediate ability, Hidden Knowledge? Is it intended to stack with the spirit bonus? As it currently reads I think it might be an untyped bonus.
(e.g. do you get triple your bonus on knowledge skills?)
On that note, do Owl and Winged Serpent stack with each other? (Both include that line for Str, but not each other)
On that note, do Owl and Winged Serpent stack with each other? (Both include that line for Str, but not each other)You add a total of double your spirit bonus (still, that's +6 (or more with the spirit specialization) to all Knowledge checks at level 8, which is pretty swanky!). Spirit bonuses don't stack unless they say so (like how Owl's to-hit and damage against fragile stack with Str).Mark, what kind of bonus is granted by The Hidden Truth's intermediate ability, Hidden Knowledge? Is it intended to stack with the spirit bonus? As it currently reads I think it might be an untyped bonus.
(e.g. do you get triple your bonus on knowledge skills?)
Right now they don't since they are both Wisdom spirit bonus to hit and damage, but I'm considering allowing it by changing up the wording slightly, now that you point it out.
Mark, I really want to like this class, but as it stands right now, I don't see a reason why I would choose to play this instead of an Occultist from Pact Magic Unbound. Not saying it cant be fixed, but that is my feeling at the moment. I look forward to further revisions.
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Mark, hopefully the idea for using the Harrow Deck with the Medium is for an archetype. Requiring people to go out and buy a Harrow Deck just to play the class would seem quite silly.
EDIT: I actually like the idea of more options. I've not went over the Medium written playtest but it seems like solution to a lot of responses is that the Medium needs a table or two for simplicity sake and that the spirits need to have some sort of grouping to allow the player to more quickly jump to the correct sections (A crude example being "Combat Spirits", "Skilled Spirits", and "Magical Spirits". I'm sure there's probably some better possible advice for grouping but it sounds like it's almost necessary to help reduce "bog down".
Also, sounds like some of the wording needs cleaned up as there's been quite a few people saying that their head exploded. Last thing we want are peoples' heads exploding...think of the poor children! :)
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For people that think there's too many options:
Browse through and find one who's first level powers you like. That is yer primary.
Now go though an read the other spirits that share alignment with yer primary, and spirits that share a stat with yer primary. Ignore the rest, because as long as you stick to your primary you cannot trance the other ones.
The reason I suggest this is because it is very unlikely you will be seancing different spirits each day. If this plays at all like the binder from 3.5, you will quickly find one you like and take feats and buy equipment that complement the abilities it gives you.
@mark it looks like I'll be able to playtest one of these at level 4 on Sunday. Any particular spirit/build you wanna see play tested?
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I would also suggest rearranging the load. The class is too back-loaded, and I appreciate that it's to discourage dipping (which is generally a good thing), but this goes too far. My personal vote is to make it a Full BAB character, but adding two spellcasting levels or overhauling Trance could work too.
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I've already thrown enough of my 2 cents into this to by a Happy Meal, but I did think of something earlier.
It'd require a bit of a rewrite of the Class, but I think it'd work out a bit better.
The first thing would be to do away with the Dual Vessel on up (again, Dual Vessel would be great as a Feat, but maybe not as a direct Class Ability).
The second is to play on the whole "versatility" thing by both hard-coding the number of Spirits the Medium can contact while also allowing them to swap Spirits in-and-out fairly on-the-fly.
I wonder what people would think of this:
Spirit (SU)
A medium serves as a vessel to channel spirits, gaining abilities based on the spirits she channels. At 1st level, a medium knows how to contact 2 Spirits. At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, she learns how to contact an additional Spirit. Contacted Spirits must be within 1 step of the Medium's alignment. The list of available Spirits is presented below.
At the beginning of each day, the Medium must conduct a ritual, called a Seance (see below), in order to once again make contact with her chosen Spirits. This ritual requires 1 hour of careful meditation, and her connection to her Spirits remains for 24 hours. A Medium must have had 8 hours of rest before she can conduct a Seance.
Possessed Trance (SU)
At 1st level the Medium learns to channel the power of one of her contacted Spirits by allowing them partial control of her body through an act known as a Possessed Trance.
Entering a Possessed Trance requires a Move Action. A Medium may enter a Possessed Trance for a number of Rounds per day equal to 2 plus her Charisma modifier (these rounds need not be consecutive). This number increases by 2 for each level beyond 1st. Temporary increases to Charisma, such as those granted by a Spiritual Bonus from a Possessed Trance, do not increase this amount.
Remaining in a Possessed Trance is a Free Action that must be made at the beginning of each of the Medium's turn. When the Possessed Trance ends, the Medium becomes Sickened for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds in which she was in a Possessed Trance.
When a Medium enters a Possessed Trance, she spends a Move Action and chooses one Spirit with whom she has made Contact that day. The spirit works in tandum with her to control her body, imparting a +2 Spiritual Bonus to one stat, determined by the Spirit's designated stat. She also gains the benefits of that Spirit's Lesser Power. Both the affected Stat and the Powers of Spirits are listed below.
Improved Possessed Trance (SU)
At 7th level, the Medium forms a greater bond with her contacted Spirits. When she enters a Possessed Trance, the Spiritual Bonus she receives from Spirits increases to +4, and she benefits from the Intermediate Power of the Spirit as as well as the Lesser.
Greater Possessed Trance (SU)
At 13th level, the Medium's bond with her contacted Spirits reaches new heights. While in a Possessed Trance, the Spiritual Bonus granted increases to +6. Additionally, she benefits from the Greater Power of the currently-channeled Spirit, as well as the Intermediate and Lesser Powers.
Supreme Possessed Trance (SU)
At 19th level, the Medium's bond with her contacted Spirits is flawless. The Spiritual Bonus imparted to the Medium increases to +8, and she gains the benefit of the Supreme, Greater, Intermediate, and Lesser Powers of her channeled Spirit.
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This allows for a hard-and-fast reference to the number of Spirits a medium has - 2 at 1st level, 3 at 3rd, 4 at 6th, 5 at 9th, and 6 at 12th. This both limits the number of Spirits a player can have, as well as not require the player to be too concerned with calculating just how many Spirits they control.
Additionally, making the Trance more akin to a Barbarian's Rage - at least in terms of duration - allows for more variance as to how often and for how long Mediums can Trance compared to one another.
This also adds major versatility, as it allows the Medium to spread their uses of Trance out much more greatly than just 1 minute per day; it also gives greater versatility in that the Medium isn't stuck with just 1-2 Spirits being Contacted each day - they can use all 6 at various times during the day, which lets them be the Swiss Army Class that it supposedly should be but in practice hasn't been.
On the plus side for the devs, suddenly having 54 Spirits doesn't seem so monstrous, since the players will only be getting up to 9 Spirits at lv18, and as is presented here, the current design of spirits need not be radically altered.
This effectively makes Spirits, as a whole, work more like Rage Powers / Talents / Discoveries / etc., but with a bit more "oomph" akin to Bloodline Abilities or Domains.
Anyway, I just want to know if this seems good to other people, or if I'm just slipping slowly into madness.
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I don't think the Medium should become the "swiss army knife" there's already multiple classes out there that already do that and better presently.
What is going to make the Medium attractive is the list of spirits, the possession / trance balance, and the combinations. I think watering down the class would only turn it into "that class that has a neat concept but no one actually wants to play".
I think some simplification and rewording is in order. Some adjustments to saves as it sounds where it's at is a bit poor. If there's multiple choices/combos for them to be frontline fighters then we'll probably see a decent amount of deaths do to low fortitude saves and d8 hd.
BAB may or may not need adjusted but I think that's probably the last thing that needs considered. They're better off beefing up or improving the Medium's special abilities than shifting the class to be more like a fighter.
When I think of a Medium I think of a psychic version of a Wild Mage. The character is allowing their self to get possessed, insinuating some high risk but high reward. (Losing control of a character is a bit much though) The thought of combinations and spirits working in tandem or opposition to each other would spark some RP opportunities, and possible mechanical (seems all spirits don't mind each other as long as they are within an alignment step, would like to see some more ego'ish spirits.)
The last thing you want to do is dull this down to a fighter or make it a "swiss army knife", if you want the latter you're probably better off just playing a Bard (which is also way less complicated) and just call it a day.
EDIT: It also sounds like the Medium is pretty boring & limited during low levels. I could be wrong but if that is the case the class will probably rarely see the light of day in PFS.
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I don't think the Medium should become the "swiss army knife" there's already multiple classes out there that already do that and better presently.
While I agree with you pretty much entirely, the class WAS billed as "filling whatever role in the party is needed". That's basically the very definition of a "Swiss Army Knife" class.
So, with that in mind, it may as well be made to be that to the nines. That includes - or perhaps even dictates - breaking up the Trance into smaller, more manageable pieces instead of a far-from-useful "1 minute or nothing per use; N uses per day" setup.
Notice that one reason the Barbarian works so well is that its Rage is broken up such that you can Rage for 1-2 rounds at a time if you wish, and thus be able to Rage during every single encounter in a day.
Now, the Paladin on the other hand... the Paladin only gets access to its Divine Bond for minutes per day, and once it's activated, it remains for a whole minute, even if the encounter only lasts for 2 rounds.
SO, what's the difference?
Well, the Paladin's Divine Bond is strong, yes; but it's also hardly the central ability of the class. It doesn't even get Divine Bond until lv5.
Rage for the Barbarian is, so it had better get the most use out of it as possible. This, of course, carries over to the Barbarian's younger brother, the Bloodrager.
The Medium, however, gets 1 use of its central ability once per day. And it takes a Full Round Action to activate.
Well, it's a good thing that the Medium just spent a Full Round Action to enter a Trance that'll now last for 1 minute without fail, because we just killed the enemy in the time it took the Medium to channel their Spirit!
Oh, wait, no, that's not a good thing. That's a horrible thing. ESPECIALLY when the Medium is sitting on the worst stats of any pseudo-caster class yet: bad saves, squishtacular, and isn't great at attacking.
So, while 2+Cha is, yes, physically much less time than the 1 minute the class has now, it is much MUCH more useful because, well, it's more molded around what you can actually expect to see in the real world.
And here I thought it was a thread about creatures' size...
I think I was someone quoting "a medium medium" somewhere, and nobody commented on this? Won't it become confusing fast? Why not use "spiritist" or any other synonym for "medium"?
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I don't think the Medium should become the "swiss army knife" there's already multiple classes out there that already do that and better presently.While I agree with you pretty much entirely, the class WAS billed as "filling whatever role in the party is needed". That's basically the very definition of a "Swiss Army Knife" class.
So, with that in mind, it may as well be made to be that to the nines. That includes - or perhaps even dictates - breaking up the Trance into smaller, more manageable pieces instead of a far-from-useful "1 minute or nothing per use; N uses per day" setup.
Notice that one reason the Barbarian works so well is that its Rage is broken up such that you can Rage for 1-2 rounds at a time if you wish, and thus be able to Rage during every single encounter in a day.
Now, the Paladin on the other hand... the Paladin only gets access to its Divine Bond for minutes per day, and once it's activated, it remains for a whole minute, even if the encounter only lasts for 2 rounds.
SO, what's the difference?
Well, the Paladin's Divine Bond is strong, yes; but it's also hardly the central ability of the class. It doesn't even get Divine Bond until lv5.
Rage for the Barbarian is, so it had better get the most use out of it as possible. This, of course, carries over to the Barbarian's younger brother, the Bloodrager.
The Medium, however, gets 1 use of its central ability once per day. And it takes a Full Round Action to activate.
Well, it's a good thing that the Medium just spent a Full Round Action to enter a Trance that'll now last for 1 minute without fail, because we just killed the enemy in the time it took the Medium to channel their Spirit!
Oh, wait, no, that's not a good thing. That's a horrible thing. ESPECIALLY when the Medium is sitting on the worst stats of any pseudo-caster class yet: bad saves, squishtacular, and isn't great at attacking.
So, while 2+Cha is, yes, physically much less time than the 1 minute the class has now, it is...
Could do trance like rage and make it free action, and for a drawback you gain influence per round. That'd require influence to be something more like 1-10 or something tho, with seance capping at 5.
Or even lose the influence, and make it so you are controlled by the spirit for double the rounds you tranced. This would remove the influence tracking people complain about, as well as make the spirit influence come up more often.
Mark, hopefully the idea for using the Harrow Deck with the Medium is for an archetype. Requiring people to go out and buy a Harrow Deck just to play the class would seem quite silly.
As I posted earlier, I personally would love a modified Harrow Deck that included the spirit mechanics on the card (deluxe size, art on one side, mechanics on the other). That said, a Harrow Deck is not required to play the class.
And here I thought it was a thread about creatures' size...
I think I was someone quoting "a medium medium" somewhere, and nobody commented on this? Won't it become confusing fast? Why not use "spiritist" or any other synonym for "medium"?
You're about four pages late for the "small medium becomes large" joke =)
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This class needs 2/3 casting not a full BAB. The stated goal of this class is to be versatile and flexible and 2/3 casting serves that goal. If you give it a full BAB you shoe horn it into being a combat class that is neither versatile or flexible.
Or even lose the influence, and make it so you are controlled by the spirit for double the rounds you tranced. This would remove the influence tracking people complain about, as well as make the spirit influence come up more often.
I have no idea how much the dev is familiar with anime, but there was a show a few years back called Darker Than Black.
In it, there are individuals called Contractors; Contractors have psychic abilities of varying types and strengths, but one thing they all have in common is that, after performing psychic acts, they must perform an act of some manner - folding paper cranes, smoking 3 cigarettes, etc. They're compelled to do so, and can't rest until they've performed their "Contracted" action. Think of it as OCD that gives you superpowers.
"Compulsion" is already listed under Spirits, though they aren't necessarily specific actions.
Instead of the arduous task of "influence tracking" (that just further causes the class to eat up more time than a Langolier), it would work better that a Medium has to perform a Compulsion after exiting a Trance for a number of Rounds equal to 1-2x the number of Rounds the Medium was in a Trance. These could easily be the Compulsions listed on the Spirits - so each Spirit requires its own Compulsion to be completed after using it.
This could also be separated from the Spirits and become a Class Feature not unlike the Oracle's Curses - each Medium chooses a Compulsion from a small list (maybe 8-12 simple tasks), and that becomes their signature Compulsion which they must perform after exiting a Trance and can't concentrate until they have completed the task. Like Oracles' Curses, these could even turn into strengths over time, somehow.
Is influence tracking really so damn hard?
Image the back page of a character sheet that looks like this:
The Beating XX
The Bear X
The Waxworks
The Teamster X
The Rabbit Prince
Seems simple enough to me.
Also: I will be extremely disappointed if there ended up being FEWER options.
If people want limited options then there is already the Ranger or whatever to play.
If you think you can juggle the complexity then you should do it because that is something I have not gotten the chance to try in pathfinder yet. Haters be damned.
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Is influence tracking really so damn hard?
Image the back page of a character sheet that looks like this:
The Beating XX
The Bear X
The Waxworks
The Teamster X
The Rabbit PrinceSeems simple enough to me.
Also: I will be extremely disappointed if there ended up being FEWER options.
If people want limited options then there is already the Ranger or whatever to play.
If you think you can juggle the complexity then you should do it because that is something I have not gotten the chance to try in pathfinder yet. Haters be damned.
I appreciate the support, but remember, those other posters up here aren't haters. They wouldn't have come here to tell us what they think if they weren't fans of some aspect of the medium. They just want the other aspects to reflect their playstyle more than they do. While it's possible (I should probably even say "pretty likely") that as of now we're still going ahead with the complexity, some of those same posters have given me excellent advice for how to keep things the way they are mechanically with the cool options and beneficial complexity while giving a better way for them to engage and choose the options (like a chart of spirits in the same way spells have an abbreviated chart) and remove the drawbacks of that complexity.
I think we can have a medium that everyone likes. And even if it can't be done, I think we can have archetypes so that there's definitely a medium for everyone if you pick the right archetype!
Is influence tracking really so damn hard?
Image the back page of a character sheet that looks like this:
The Beating XX
The Bear X
The Waxworks
The Teamster X
The Rabbit PrinceSeems simple enough to me.
Also: I will be extremely disappointed if there ended up being FEWER options.
If people want limited options then there is already the Ranger or whatever to play.
If you think you can juggle the complexity then you should do it because that is something I have not gotten the chance to try in pathfinder yet. Haters be damned.
I appreciate the support, but remember, those other posters up here aren't haters. They wouldn't have come here to tell us what they think if they weren't fans of some aspect of the medium. They just want the other aspects to reflect their playstyle more than they do. While it's possible (I should probably even say "pretty likely") that as of now we're still going ahead with the complexity, some of those same posters have given me excellent advice for how to keep things the way they are mechanically with the cool options and beneficial complexity while giving a better way for them to engage and choose the options (like a chart of spirits in the same way spells have an abbreviated chart) and remove the drawbacks of that complexity.
I think we can have a medium that everyone likes. And even if it can't be done, I think we can have archetypes so that there's definitely a medium for everyone if you pick the right archetype!
You took my flippant comment with a greater level of serious and maturity than I expected.
A printable chart may really be a good idea (with ability score on one axis and alignment on another). The "legal" combinations will all be within rook movements of each-other, right?
The individual cells could have little circles to track influence and the "primacy" of the spirit as well (whether the given spirit is the fist, second, or third spirit).
I make this suggestion while confessing that I have not read the full thread. Your threads are on fire, Seifter. I wish you luck.
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I love the way all the spirits interact with and "unlock" one another. I too hope we still see all 54 spirits when the book comes out.
Can someone double-check me on something? I'm play around with a 6th level medium build. Right now she has Str 14, Dex 21 and Spirit Specialization (Dexterity), along with some other feats that are irrelevant for this purpose. If she chooses the Rabbit Prince as her primary and the Bear for her secondary, she can then trance into the Beating. At that point, I believe her attack line looks like this:
Unarmed +12 (1d6+5) and two claws +7/+7 (1d6+4)
Does that look right to anyone else?
I think we can have a medium that everyone likes. And even if it can't be done, I think we can have archetypes so that there's definitely a medium for everyone if you pick the right archetype!
That could be a happy medium.
I'm thinking about the influence thing some more, and rather than "the GM takes control," I was thinking of a suite of circumstance penalties that might apply situationally. Each spirit might list a "ban"; if you're at 4 influence, you take the penalty or restriction listed in the ban. Like, a peaceful spirit might prevent you from having a readied weapon out of combat and give you a -2 to confirm critical hits, while a warlike one might give you a -2 penalty on Diplomacy checks and forbid you from dealing nonlethal damage if you have any way to deal lethal damage.
Maybe having 3+ influence also gives you an alignment aura and makes you vulnerable to spells as though your alignment matches your aura.
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Just had a thought about the influence thing... I'm not sure I have a real problem with the loss of control at 4 influence in a campaign or module. It has occurred to me, though--what are the implications for it in PFS?
If many scenarios are intended to take place over the course of a day, does the class become unusually prone to "lose or stop playing" situations, where the medium's player has a choice of whether to trance before a critical action and stop playing during the rest of the scenario, or not trance and accept a higher chance of character death?
I don't know if it's been taken into consideration or not. It might be! It's just something I'm curious about. That's certainly not the kind of situation I would want to create, but on the other hand nobody is forcing you to play a medium in PFS, and you'd have to already be at 3 influence to make that a possibility.
-edit-
Of course, I would assume that influence resets between scenarios, so this would only come up if your strategy hinged on trancing a single spirit you're already channeling, and you'd need 3 trances/day. So perhaps it's just not worth worrying about.
Just had a thought about the influence thing... I'm not sure I have a real problem with the loss of control at 4 influence in a campaign or module. It has occurred to me, though--what are the implications for it in PFS?
If many scenarios are intended to take place over the course of a day, does the class become unusually prone to "lose or stop playing" situations, where the medium's player has a choice of whether to trance before a critical action and stop playing during the rest of the scenario, or not trance and accept a higher chance of character death?
I don't know if it's been taken into consideration or not. It might be! It's just something I'm curious about. That's certainly not the kind of situation I would want to create, but on the other hand nobody is forcing you to play a medium in PFS, and you'd have to already be at 3 influence to make that a possibility.
-edit-
Of course, I would assume that influence resets between scenarios, so this would only come up if your strategy hinged on trancing a single spirit you're already channeling, and you'd need 3 trances/day. So perhaps it's just not worth worrying about.
With the current playtest medium, if you are playing in a one-day PFS scenario, you cannot possibly achieve 4 influence until 6th level unless you intentionally choose a spirit like Rakshasa that allows you to up your influence. Even at 6th, you'd have to work at it.
So for spirits that change their attribute type, if you grab spirit specialization in their attribute does it apply to the other forms?
E.g. Rabbit Prince acts as both Dex and Str when attacking, do I take Spirit Specialization Str or Dex to get +1 to Attack and damage?
That's one of the reasons why we don't have a finalized Spirit Specialization in this playtest. I would say SS: Strength works for the Rabbit Prince when it counts as a Strength spirit, but I'm undecided as to whether it would boost your AC and Ref saves too (clearly it would at least boost to-hit and damage and any Rabbit Prince specific abilities).
With the current playtest medium, if you are playing in a one-day PFS scenario, you cannot possibly achieve 4 influence until 6th level unless you intentionally choose a spirit like Rakshasa that allows you to up your influence. Even at 6th, you'd have to work at it.Just had a thought about the influence thing... I'm not sure I have a real problem with the loss of control at 4 influence in a campaign or module. It has occurred to me, though--what are the implications for it in PFS?
If many scenarios are intended to take place over the course of a day, does the class become unusually prone to "lose or stop playing" situations, where the medium's player has a choice of whether to trance before a critical action and stop playing during the rest of the scenario, or not trance and accept a higher chance of character death?
I don't know if it's been taken into consideration or not. It might be! It's just something I'm curious about. That's certainly not the kind of situation I would want to create, but on the other hand nobody is forcing you to play a medium in PFS, and you'd have to already be at 3 influence to make that a possibility.
-edit-
Of course, I would assume that influence resets between scenarios, so this would only come up if your strategy hinged on trancing a single spirit you're already channeling, and you'd need 3 trances/day. So perhaps it's just not worth worrying about.
This seems to be a confusing point for a lot folks. I think a clarifying example in the final book is merited.
This seems to be a confusing point for a lot folks. I think a clarifying example in the final book is merited.With the current playtest medium, if you are playing in a one-day PFS scenario, you cannot possibly achieve 4 influence until 6th level unless you intentionally choose a spirit like Rakshasa that allows you to up your influence. Even at 6th, you'd have to work at it.Just had a thought about the influence thing... I'm not sure I have a real problem with the loss of control at 4 influence in a campaign or module. It has occurred to me, though--what are the implications for it in PFS?
If many scenarios are intended to take place over the course of a day, does the class become unusually prone to "lose or stop playing" situations, where the medium's player has a choice of whether to trance before a critical action and stop playing during the rest of the scenario, or not trance and accept a higher chance of character death?
I don't know if it's been taken into consideration or not. It might be! It's just something I'm curious about. That's certainly not the kind of situation I would want to create, but on the other hand nobody is forcing you to play a medium in PFS, and you'd have to already be at 3 influence to make that a possibility.
-edit-
Of course, I would assume that influence resets between scenarios, so this would only come up if your strategy hinged on trancing a single spirit you're already channeling, and you'd need 3 trances/day. So perhaps it's just not worth worrying about.
Agreed, Serisan. When people play the medium, they will likely see how hard it is to build up 4 influence. For now, at least, I do have an example of Rachel the Rakshasa medium upthread a bit.
I think the only thing I really find counter-intuitive about the class is the way Charisma spirits interact if they aren't your primary. I really don't like the fact they don't give any kind of bonus if they are your secondary, etc and you don't have Charisma as your primary.
Yeah, Charisma is a very interesting suit of spirits. Since they often also have big powers like Unicorn (super aid another and whoo, at-will limited wish!), it makes the ability to count as Charisma a very useful and powerful ability. For instance, the Paladin eventually counts as Charisma in addition to Strength. The Twin is also a pretty good way to leap into Charisma.
Agreed, Serisan. When people play the medium, they will likely see how hard it is to build up 4 influence. For now, at least, I do have an example of Rachel the Rakshasa medium upthread a bit.This seems to be a confusing point for a lot folks. I think a clarifying example in the final book is merited.With the current playtest medium, if you are playing in a one-day PFS scenario, you cannot possibly achieve 4 influence until 6th level unless you intentionally choose a spirit like Rakshasa that allows you to up your influence. Even at 6th, you'd have to work at it.Just had a thought about the influence thing... I'm not sure I have a real problem with the loss of control at 4 influence in a campaign or module. It has occurred to me, though--what are the implications for it in PFS?
If many scenarios are intended to take place over the course of a day, does the class become unusually prone to "lose or stop playing" situations, where the medium's player has a choice of whether to trance before a critical action and stop playing during the rest of the scenario, or not trance and accept a higher chance of character death?
I don't know if it's been taken into consideration or not. It might be! It's just something I'm curious about. That's certainly not the kind of situation I would want to create, but on the other hand nobody is forcing you to play a medium in PFS, and you'd have to already be at 3 influence to make that a possibility.
-edit-
Of course, I would assume that influence resets between scenarios, so this would only come up if your strategy hinged on trancing a single spirit you're already channeling, and you'd need 3 trances/day. So perhaps it's just not worth worrying about.
I tried to explain it upthread as well, but it's just a tricky piece. I think there is a visceral response to anything that involves a loss of control that makes people stop reading.
I tried to explain it upthread as well, but it's just a tricky piece. I think there is a visceral response to anything that involves a loss of control that makes people stop reading.
It may be so. The key to making losing control a fun mechanic is to make the fact of the loss of control 100% in the control of the one losing control, as in the current mechanics. This way, it only ever happens when the player wants it to happen. I even think some GMs might let the player play the spirit and ham it up to take pressure off the GM's plate, but the fact that this is only happening due to a GM allowance makes it easier to step in if the player just has the spirit act like the usual character does and help the other PCs as normal. I actually initially had some mechanics that involved gradual penalties based on the compulsions, but some very wise people pointed out to me that those would cause table conflicts like a paladin's code does, but worse, like if there were 54 different paladin's codes and it only would take 1 disagreement out of 54 to create a conflict. This way, the player can RP the increases of 1-3 however they like. The class doesn't mind. I'm going to be sure it's balanced even if the player is shy or averse to anything that might be a drawback or what-have-you and always just plays as normal from 1 through 3. But if you do hit 4, and you'll know going in that you're going to hit 4 with that trance, then you've chosen to become an NPC for a little while. Which could totally be fun if that's what you want (maybe the spirit even made you an offer and claimed it would help out? Will it keep its word? Lots of RP potential). But yeah, agreed; there's a reason the class description even says "Because of this, few mediums are willing to incur further spiritual influence beyond 3."
While it is true that it's pretty much impossible in the current build to become possessed prior to getting twice a day trance, remaining on the brink is exceedingly easy, though that is mostly just fun rp opportunities.
The problem with losing control of your character is that it's not "a little while" as Mark put it. If you are forced by circumstances to do a trance to get access to ability in say, a dungeon, or in PFS session, you are pretty much good to just leave the session, you won't be contributing to the affairs for rest of the day, and in case of more combat heavy dungeons, possibly more than that, and you might have done it just to survive an encounter. Until next rest can be very short time, but it can also be very long while topping at few sessions. IF GM allows you to play the spirit possessed medium, then nice, you get to ham up as a spirit that you probably had some design as to what or who the spirit is, if not, well, then it sucks. And how do you even function in terms of game mechanics when it's not you driving.
I'd advocate for some solution that is still flavourful, but wouldn't be quite as punishing. chbgraphicarts gave one good example of an idea for that.
It may be so. The key to making losing control a fun mechanic is to make the fact of the loss of control 100% in the control of the one losing control, as in the current mechanics. This way, it only ever happens when the player wants it to happen. I even think some GMs might let the player play the spirit and ham it up to take pressure off the GM's plate, but the fact that this is only happening due to a GM allowance makes it easier to step in if the player just has the spirit act like the usual character does and help the other PCs as normal. I actually initially had some mechanics that involved gradual penalties based on the compulsions, but some very wise people pointed out to me that those would cause table conflicts like a paladin's code does, but worse, like if there were 54 different paladin's codes and it only would take 1 disagreement out of 54 to create a conflict. This way, the player can RP the increases of 1-3 however they like. The class doesn't mind. I'm going to be sure it's balanced even if the player is shy or averse to anything that might be a drawback or what-have-you and always just plays as normal from 1 through 3. But if you do hit 4, and you'll know going in that you're going to hit 4 with that trance, then you've chosen to become an NPC for a little while. Which could totally be fun if that's what you want (maybe the spirit even made you an offer and claimed it would help out? Will it keep its word? Lots of RP potential). But yeah, agreed; there's a reason the class description even says "Because of this, few mediums are willing to incur further spiritual influence beyond 3."
I tried to explain it upthread as well, but it's just a tricky piece. I think there is a visceral response to anything that involves a loss of control that makes people stop reading.
I'm with you entirely on this, Mark. There are so many interesting opportunities that get opened up with this mechanic and I think that it was both a clever and daring design choice. I think it is a fun mechanic, but I know that people conflate "loss of control" with "Hold Person/Confusion/Dominate Person" style interference.
It does present a really strange limitation in PFS, but I think the campaign will end up restricting out accruals over 3 if the mechanic stays as written. I don't like that, but it's likely necessary to do this in order to maintain the sort of environment that organized play requires.
In home games, it's potentially less problematic and creates very strong party roleplaying situations. In fact, I could see situations where the GM would actually request that the player push it up to lead into certain plot arcs, which reinforces the idea of the story being about the characters. Very cool opportunities here, IMO, but it requires that players be able to grok the mechanic fully, even if it means spelling out the fact that it takes a concerted effort and a minimum level 3, at which point you're almost unable to be constrained into the loss of control by dint of the number of spirits you know.
I think another factor that will help is for people to see more of the spirits, but as you've said upthread, that means we just need to playtest more and get you some results. :-)
I don't mind the possession mechanics because it's always the player's choice... But the limit could be slightly higher.
I don't like the "DM takes control of your character" mechanic....but when all is said and done it really doesn't matter....I'll simply house rule that the character retains control at my table....I do see it as a problem mechanic all the same.
I think I understand why the current rule set approaches it that way....I just don't agree with doing that to my players.