I had this huge like five paragraph explanation of why I needed it, but for some reason it logged me out after I hit Preview and I lost it all...
Anyway... I want to create a weapon like in older versions of Dungeons & Dragons (Basic/Advanced, 2nd Edition), but as far as I know, there is not way to do this in 3.5 Edition and Pathfinder. Specifically, weapons that get better against certain creatures, in this case, a "Longsword +1, +2 Vs. Demons".
If possible, a way to make it from a Masterwork weapon, one that suddenly becomes better when used against that monster type, because my Players are currently Level 2 (expecting them to be Level 3 when they get this item), but I just don't want to hand them a Longsword +2 that's worth 8000 gold for no reason (always hated the pricing of magical equipment in 3.5 Edition, it ALWAYS leaps upwards way too quickly).
I was thinking like, the masterwork weapon price, and then half whatever temporary bonus that it gets? Like, a "Masterwork Longsword, +2 Vs. Demons" would be like 4315 gold, or something like that.
Anyway to do this, and on a DM treasure budget? Thanks for any feedback :D
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That's called a "Bane" weapon.
And if you want to say 'screw prices and WBL' and drop a magic weapon like that onto your L3 PCs, feel free. It's a guideline, not a rule.
Bane might be overdoing it a bit much. I would ignore prices, but I have been doing this long enough that ignoring minor details could come back to haunt me, lol. Although, I suppose I could just have no merchant buy it, because its a sacred sword in the first place? Money problem solved, heh.
What about just giving the weapon +2 Vs. Whatever some other way? Maybe I'll make up some kind of a special material, which happens to deal slightly more damage against Demons, like with Elysian Bronze does with magical beasts and monstrous humanoids, but much more specific, like for Demons and not other Outsiders (trying to design it for a Half-Succubus/Drow related side quest, although the blade was never intended to kill the creature, just be there as apart of consistency).
I had not considered just changing the material type until this thread. That could work, and would give me a chance to add some more stuff to my world for later campaigns. I'll probably do that, but further feedback would be great.
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Use Bane as your calculator.
It's a +1 Enhancement, giving you +2/+2, +2d6 against a specific class of foes.
Reptiles is a subset of beast/magical beasts. Depending on how you rule it (are dragons reptilian?), the category should be 1/2 to same as Bane's Category.
+1d6 of broad damage is worth +1 (elemental damage, holy, etc).
+2/+2 is worth +2.
So you have a +4 enhancement worth +1 because it applies against only a specific set of monsters.
So, if all you're going to do is increase by +1, it should be worth 1/4 of +1. So, a +1, +2 sword is going to be adding 1/4 of 8k, or +2k. If reptiles is more restricted (no reptilian humanoids, no dragons), then half that, so +1k.
A sword +1, +3 vs something is going to be 1/2 or 1/4 of a +1 increase.
A Sword +1, +4 against something should be 3/4 or 3/8 of a +1 increase.
A sword +1/+5 should be worth either as much as a Bane, or 1/2 as much, depending on who it's effective against.
So if you need to calculate effects, just break up how it compares to Bane, which is effectively a +4 'limited' to a +1 cost. Increase proportionately.
If it has a 'broader' base then Bane, double the cost. i.e. a sword +1, +3 against Evil should be priced at half Bane, doubled for the broad category, so straight +2 pricing.
You should probably avoid separating Th and Dmg bonus, i.e. a sword +2 th, +4 damage. That gets really wonkey in pricing, and leads to min-maxing (the TH side is far more valuable then damage, and what bonus is it for DR purposes?)
==Aelryinth
Use Bane as your calculator.
It's a +1 Enhancement, giving you +2/+2, +2d6 against a specific class of foes.
You absolutely lost me there; what does the +2/+2 mean? I see what your saying, but its hard to follow the mathematics when I don't understand the shorthand :P. Also, I thought Demons were a subtype of Outsider?
I was thinking the material would be nice, because if the Players like it enough, they could also enchant it later, and make it like a personal signature weapon that only they have, because the material is so rare. Plus, if I decide to do something with Demons or Fiends in general later, I can mention how the material is often taken by Celestials into the Abyss to battle them, or something.
I was thinking something like Elysian Steel, but without the attack bonus after hitting the creature, just: +2 Damage against Demons, About +500 Weapon Cost. Or maybe just make it the same as Elysian Steel and be done with it, haha.
I am really interested in what Aelryinth came up with though.
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A Bane weapon vs Enemy X grants +2/+2 th/dmg, +2d6 damage.
That's effectively a +4 enhancement.
I thought you were talking about a magical ability, not a material ability.
'Demons' is a subset of 'evil outsider'. Any ability specifically targeting demons should cost half as much as a Bane ability that targets a broader group.
So, Bane: Demons should cost half a +1 ability (bane's cost)...if your DM allows 'half +1' effects.
+1, +2 against demons grants 1/4 the bonuses a Bane does. So, with half pricing because it's Demons and not Evil outsiders, that would be 1/8 the price.
So a sword +1, +2 against Demons would be 3,000 gp (2k + 1/8th the cost of a Bane being added of 8k).
As I noted above, splitting TH and DMG bonuses is a bad idea in general. +1 TH generally = +2 dmg (because of Power Attack). But, if you really want to, a Sword +1, +3 dmg against demons would be half the price of a +1 enhancement, half the price of a Bane's group, and 1/4 the normal Bane enhancement, for 1/16 normal price increase.
You'd end up spot on at +500 gp cost for a sword +1, +3 dmg vs demons, or 2500 gp total.
Be very wary of stacking these minor effects!
==Aelryinth
OOOOOOOOOOOH. I get it. Also, I had thought the +2/+2 was that, because of your ending comments, but wasn't sure, because I was just generally confused.
I have literally been staring at your post this entire time, thinking that there is something wrong with my brain. What I did not understand is that you broke down Bane INTO a +4 bonus, because of its +2, and that the +2d6 damage bonus is basically +d6 broad damage applied twice. Sorry, it was a bit hard to read flat out, especially considering its a work week.
And yeah, you were right, I was originally talking about magical equipment, but my concept for this process (for this specific item) had changed throughout the thread.
I REALLY like that idea though, I will have to poke at it over the weekend when I am more awake, and pass it along to a friend to see how he feels. That's a pretty neat idea. I really loved the older editions descriptions of weapons, so getting pretty excited.
Saving all of this to text file for future reference, going to give it some serious thought. Thanks for the help! You just changed my outlook of weaponry quite a bit.
A battle aspergillum is able to sprink holy water on each strike. This water is able to deal 1 damage to evil outsiders and undead.
A decanter of endless water is 9000 gold.
A limitation on the decanter (only cause a trickle, no stream or geyser) but the water is holy.
I would price the "weapon" of holy water at around 4-5k personally. It is still powerful, but not overly powerful, or pricey.
No need... the Everflowing Aspergillum already exists for 3,905 gp.
+1, +2 against demons grants 1/4 the bonuses a Bane does. So, with half pricing because it's Demons and not Evil outsiders, that would be 1/8 the price.
So a sword +1, +2 against Demons would be 3,000 gp (2k + 1/8th the cost of a Bane being added of 8k).
Was climbing into bed, and realized that did not make sense. I realize that Demons is half of Evil Outsiders, so that's +1/2 Enhancement, and your removing the +2d6, effectively halving it again for +1/4 Enhancement, but you cannot get +1/8, because you already applied the Demon specific category once. It would be weird to apply it twice, unless there is something I am missing?
The +1/4th is because the Bane-like effect is only adding +1 (because you're already at +1 and it's a net +2 effect vs. Demons). So, it's a quarter of the effectiveness of full Bane.
That's what I don't get. Since when does 1 + 2 = 1/4? Shouldn't be half, because Bane as a whole is those four abilities? Sorry, you have to walk me through this one :/
Bane = +1 agains everyone, + additional 2 Against Evil Outsiders
Your sword = +1 against everyone, + additional 1 against demons (we assume that if works as +2 against demons, not gets additional +2)
Bane = 1
Bane against demons = 1/2
Bane against demons without 2d6 = 1/4
Bane against demons without 1d6 and only +1 bonus = 1/8
Price of bonus may be interpreted as 6000gp (from +1 2000gp to +2 8000gp) so it may cost 2750gp.
You can also look at cursed items, there is option of magic weapon working only in 10ft from specific creature type.
Super Genius Games has a loot for less product line that handles exactly this problem. I highly recommend it for both low level magic items that aren't just potions and also some interesting and fun things that even higher level characters can get some use out of.
Catching wind of this thread almost makes me want to drop Wealth By Level and just do what feels right. Like my group did with XP.
WBL is a guideline to help out DM's. Not a concrete barrier. Official stuff is balanced so that characters of x level should have about x gear to help them out.
It gives a baseline. You can go above or below that as needed.
"Partial' bonuses like '+x against Creatures Y' are both flavorful and abusable. They make a great way to give lower level players powerful weapons against specific enemies.
Minmaxers then exploit this for all it's worth, so be careful of using such things.
I would personally rule that a +(less then 1) ability still takes a FULL +1 slot, so you can't stack multiple lesser powers into the same slot, you can only upgrade to full functionality (i.e. turn a sword +1, +3 vs Demons into a Bane: Evil Outsiders weapon.)
So, if your player wants to stack a Sword +1, flaming, +3 against cold users, +4 vs undead...he's used up 4 of his slots, not 2.75. He can improve the weapon to a full +4 equivalent, and he's PAYING for 2.75...but the four slots are full.
Just something to think about.
==Aelryinth
Okay, I kind of get it now, will be hard to explain that to my Players and other DM's for our circle though /headache, haha.
Catching wind of this thread almost makes me want to drop Wealth By Level and just do what feels right. Like my group did with XP.
Personally, for years I ignored all of that stuff and just did my own thing. What I like to do is have a Chapter system, where some form of a plot happens during the Chapter and the Player's can generally expect 1 Level during this period (~110% needed for the next Level, to be exact). However, having played d20 Modern's setup, which is very similar to Pathfinder's, it kind of conditioned me for WBL and what not, I really love Pathfinder because of that.
So these days, generally speaking, I use the WBL as a guideline, but never really go exact with it. Actually, I tend to go a bit above it, because after all, most of the junk you throw at them will be one time uses, and at the end of the day everything usually sells for half price. My only problem with giving them a standard +2 weapon is that BLAM, they suddenly have 4000 gold dropped in their lap. I'm fine with that at around ~Level 7+, but not really before.
Didn't expect this thread to become so popular, guess I am the only one who doesn't miss those old numbers :P
A Bane weapon requires a +1 or better magic weapon.
A Bane weapon does an extra +2 to hit/damage and +2d6 damage vs listed creature type.
A +1 magic Bane Sword vs Dragon does:
+1 to hit/to damage vs Any creature
+3 to hit/to damage vs Dragon + 2d6 extra hp damage
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On a Related note: Had a GM, once, who ONLY allowed magic item in his game as Limited Charged items.
1/2 Unlimited use base price = 50 charges
Item cost divided by 50 = is cost per charge x number of remaining charges left.
Charge on armor and weapon was only used up if they were hit/did hit (except range weapon, which was charge per use)...
Made for an interesting game, as i have never seen a Fighter up his Dex, take dodge, and learn to use fight defensively, in an attempt to make his magic items last longer before.
Cool, did not know that existed. However, it is 7,805 gold to buy, not 3,905 gold.A battle aspergillum is able to sprink holy water on each strike. This water is able to deal 1 damage to evil outsiders and undead.
A decanter of endless water is 9000 gold.
A limitation on the decanter (only cause a trickle, no stream or geyser) but the water is holy.
I would price the "weapon" of holy water at around 4-5k personally. It is still powerful, but not overly powerful, or pricey.
No need... the Everflowing Aspergillum already exists for 3,905 gp.
Hmm... That it is. Sorry about that. Guess I've been playing characters with Craft Magic Arms and Armor too much... I just look straight at the construction cost.
...and with that I will withdraw my cross-talk from this thread before I disrupt it further.
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Actually Demons is only one third... you forget that Daemons are the Neutral Evil component. And they get very ketchy when folks conflate them with Demons.Was climbing into bed, and realized that did not make sense. I realize that Demons is half of Evil Outsiders, so that's +1/2 Enhancement, and your removing the +2d6, effectively halving it again for +1/4 Enhancement, but you cannot get +1/8, because you already applied the Demon specific category once. It would be weird to apply it twice, unless there is something I am missing?+1, +2 against demons grants 1/4 the bonuses a Bane does. So, with half pricing because it's Demons and not Evil outsiders, that would be 1/8 the price.
So a sword +1, +2 against Demons would be 3,000 gp (2k + 1/8th the cost of a Bane being added of 8k).
Yes, but you price it as 1/2 so that it upgrades to Bane (evil outsiders) and benefits from synergy, instead of adding one group after another.
I also recommend a House Rule with Bane weapons, because they are so powerful.
If the wielder of a Bane or Scourge weapon is of the same class the weapon attacks, they are subject to the Bane/Scourge effect from all attacks directed against them.
I do this because I consider Bane/Scourge to be Curse Magic, and to really not care if their weilder gets killed.
So if a Human is wielding a Humanbane weapon, all attacks against him are +2/+2 and +2d6 damage.
If an Evil person is wielding a Scourge (evil) weapon, all attacks against him are +2/+2 th/dmg, as well.
This encourages a proper loathing of Bane and Scourge weapons if they aren't usable by the characters, and offsets some of their power.
===Aelryinth