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Stay on target!
Legalization or not of drugs must be relevant to the whole teenager title, so keep on topic! :)
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i assure you, i barely understand the meaning of the word "topic" :)
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that was just some self-dep on my part because although I'm happy and have friends, bae & all that, I can be kind of a cornball*.
I am touched by your concern all the same and will take your advice on board. (not in hs now, but when I was, basketball coach was always trying to hit me up to play. the problem was that I'm corn bad at it and at the time the 'you're tall so play ' thing grated along my contrarian streak I guess. I am currently helping out with the rpg club here). it's definitely sad when people feel adrift.
You couldn't have been as bad as I was. I started HS at 6'1" and ended at 6'6" and was never once asked to play basketball. :)
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Are you two seriously ganging up on Orthos over this?
we were having a nice relevatory conversation on our different perspectives due to our upbringing, keep the noise and negativity in the rules forum:)
Keep the negativity off these forums entirely, thank you, unless you're planning to be constructive about it.
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I was just kidding Liz i'm terribly sorry I wont make jokes like that again:)
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I'm honestly agog at your abstinence and your question there (the 'why would anybody want to not excel at school and be in trouble ever?' one) I am pretty sure that most adults I know would be also. you probably would have mentioned if you had tried any of it. background and being sheltered is maybe a big factor but it sounds as though some people are born wired to not want to do some stuff I guess. did you enjoy being a teenager?
Oh, I've had alcohol. Not my thing. I don't like the buzz and disorientation (and that's from one drink. Lightweight, thy name is Scint), so it's not my go-to plan for a night of fun. Never smoked. My grandparents all smoke, and I hate the smell.
Abstinence - like I said. Never cared. Never been all that interested in dating. I'm an introvert, and I like my alone time. Dating has always been at least one part in my mind tied to the idea of being obligated to give up my hard-earned alone time. Not entirely accurate, as I'm sure anyone who has dated will say, but I've never been curious enough to find out if I should correct myself.
As for my behavior, maybe it'll make more sense if I put it this way.
The kids I didn't get along with in school were, coincidentally (or not so coincidentally, as they liked to pick on me), the ones who were always in trouble. Getting in trouble would mean I was like them. I did not want to be like them. Easy rationale to pick up in kindergarten, easy to self-condition a habit of being a good kid to the point it's pretty much reflex by the time my brain matured enough to realize a poor chain of logic when I saw it.
I liked being good at school. We all like being good at things, and I was already naturally pretty bright, so it made sense for me to try extra hard to have my grades reflect that. Getting in trouble meant wasting time I could be using to continue being awesome. Besides. School's mandatory. If you have to do something anyway, why not do your best at it and not make it more painful than it has to be?
Teenage years were a thing that happened. Pretty meh overall, nothing spectacular or particularly awful. I was well along the path of being a bookworm, so I passed those years mostly in books and drama club. Just never had that adventurous streak everyone talks about teens having.
I readily admit I'm weird. I keep telling my students I'm the most boring adult they'll ever meet.
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As a proud middleoftheroader, I find extreme abstinence just as bizarre and extreme debauchery (thanks whoever brought that word back). HOWEVER, neither group really seems to be out to ruin my life, so keep on keepin' on.
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As a proud middleoftheroader, I find extreme abstinence just as bizarre and extreme debauchery (thanks whoever brought that word back). HOWEVER, neither group really seems to be out to ruin my life, so keep on keepin' on.
** spoiler omitted **
I firmly believe in nationalized health care. I believe in strict restrictions on corporate behavior, and keeping the board of directors criminally liable for any criminal behavior by the corporation. (Yes, Mr. Suit. You CAN do hard time for that!) I believe in welfare, not in its current state, but in a state of, "Any city with a population of over 10,000 maintains dormitories for 1% of its population where anyone who behaves can stay indefinitely, no questions asked. But your room will be checked daily for illegal activity, and if you do anything illegal, you're out on your ear."
I am so anti-Libertarian that it's silly to call myself one.
Individuals need freedom and safety. I despise "victimless crimes". In those ways I am "Libertarian".
However,
(1) As soon as 10 people get into a group, you need a government to protect the rest of us from them.
(2) No society has ever functioned without a government, so if we're going to have one, let's make sure it takes care of the most basic stuff first. (National defense, no starving in the streets, national health care.) It's ludicrous to call yourself "civilized" in the same breath as an Ayn Randian, "They brought their poverty on themselves. Let them die of that horrific treatable disease!"
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Man, reading some of y'alls stories makes me feel like a wild child. At least for my late teens. In high school, I was a shy, quiet, band nerd who was more than content to sit at home and play video games on nights where I didn't have some band activity with the exception of going to one party, and it earned me the nickname of "The F-ed Up Guy" due to just how drunk and high I got.
After I joined the Air Force was a different story. I started smoking, drank every night, partied all weekend long, and showed up to work still drunk a couple of times. Wound up getting a general discharge when I got caught drinking outside my dorm room (I was 20). Got caught at the wrong time, as they were looking for any reason to kick people out. A year prior, one of the guys in my squadron got 3 DUIs underage before getting the boot.
I don't regret any of it. Had it not been for drinking/smoking, I would have never met the friend who invited me to the party where I met my wife.
I don't drink as much these days, and am quitting smoking since my daughter was born. I still enjoy getting drunk from time to time, though the after effects are much worse now, and I hardly touch liquor.
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"To Alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems"- Homer J. Simpson
If you're going to do debauchery, you might as well go all the way.
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom."
--William Anklebiter
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"To Alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems"- Homer J. Simpson"AA? Anything that takes 12 steps is not worth doing"- Homer Simpson
He obviously missed the succubus in a grapple thread.
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He obviously missed the succubus in a grapple thread."To Alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems"- Homer J. Simpson"AA? Anything that takes 12 steps is not worth doing"- Homer Simpson
i imagine Homer Simpson would be fairly oblivious to Succubi "listen lady! if you won't give me directions, i'm leaving!, and uh, you might want to get that checked out by a doctor!"
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As a proud middleoftheroader, I find extreme abstinence just as bizarre and extreme debauchery (thanks whoever brought that word back). HOWEVER, neither group really seems to be out to ruin my life, so keep on keepin' on.
** spoiler omitted **
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Of course, Rand goes a little too far overboard in the other direction. Objectivism is an interesting theory, and has a few good nuggets in it, but it's not really a reasonable overall philosophy.
Once upon a time there was a thing called charity. People willingly gave time, money, and a place to stay to those who were truly down on their luck. And the people who were down on their luck really worked at getting themselves together again. Unfortunately, as I see it, government welfare has pretty much destroyed that. I know there are people on welfare who really are struggling to get out. But there are more who are just sliding by and taking what they're given. And our government, as it is today, has an interest in keeping some number of people on welfare.
Outright taking from one group to dish out to another group with no real consequences for the receivers who don't do anything with themselves is a recipe for disaster. When a government doesn't have to do a cost/benefit analysis of the services they offer, it just makes it worse for everyone. If the government runs out of resources, they just take more, because who can stop them?
But that's just me. I know human nature renders a lot of things academic, there will always be an "us" and a "them" for groups to fight about. But maybe one day...
just my two cents, as a person well below the poverty level thats never, and i mean never! relied on government subsidies to feed my family:)
edit: sorry Orthos, i was using my phone it only lets me type 256 characters, i changed it when i got to my computer:)
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Can we keep the off-topic political arguments in spoilers or PMs please >_<
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Following up with Orthos (and I believe TacticsLion), since this is still a point of fascination with me.
I was walking with my 13-year-old last night, and I told him about this thread. I said, "So I know you don't go to a lot of your friends' houses and interact with their parents, but I'm really interested in what you see in terms of strictness of parents as compared to misbehavior of the kids."
Without pausing a moment, he just said, "<Name of well-known worst-behaved kid in his entire class>. Stricter parents have worse-behaved kids. Definitely."
Must be a regional thing...
i had the same conversation with my 10 year old, and she said the exact same thing:) an awfully big region there.......
also it was this morning, on the walk to school:)
also i know she's only 10 (and a half! she says) however according to her "i'm already a pre-teen dad! it won't be that much longer!" and in case you can't tell she's quite mature for her age:)
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I wonder if it's urban vs. rural.
If that doesn't explain it, I've got no further theories beyond my hometown being in an adolescent-behavioral singularity/Bermuda triangle.
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I would guess (and research seems to support) that it matters if the parents are more often strict in the authoritarian sense ("Do it because I told you to, and will punish you if you disobey") or in an authoritative sense ("Do it because of X, Y, and Z."). In the former case, the kids rebel and end up worse off. In the latter case, the kids make some mistakes but eventually come around.
BOTH of those are far different from permissive parenting ("Do it or don't do it; your call") or negligent parenting (no guidance at all).
good point, it might be.
i grew up rural and none of my brothers acted out (7 brothers, every single one of us* home schooled, i knew one glorious semester of driver's ed but thats it, but yeah we were pretty sheltered i was way more sociable outside the home then my brothers, but that was partially because i was the punching bag and scapegoat for the older brothers so i didn't even want to be around them, so that may be why i acted out and rebelled more.
*well okay the four older brothers all went to elementary school to around fourth or fifth grade. and before anyone asks, no it had nothing to do with religious beliefs, my dad was a school teacher (now retired and organic farming:) and hated how they were run or set up or whatever he said back in the day, and yes i get asked if it was for religious reasons a lot (everyone assumes religion has to be involved in everything in the midwest, to which i always ask "do we really have to get god involved in this conversation do we? isn't he busy enough")
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I was thinking the same think: Geographic anonymity.
In a small town like where you grew up, if you do something, EVERYONE knows about it. So if your parents are stricter and you still go out and do something, you're really not very bright, are you?
On the other hand, while our town is "only" 20,000, if you go 2 miles north you're in a town of over 150,000, and a quick BART trip takes you to a town of over 400,000. Suddenly, no matter what you do, you can be absolutely, 100% sure you won't get caught.
So I think you hit the nail on the head, Orthos -- if you're living in a place with a population density so high that you can be sure you won't be caught, you tend to act out more.
Also explains college....
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I would guess (and research seems to support) that it matters if the parents are strict in the authoritarian sense ("Do it because I told you to, and will punish you if you disobey") or in an authoritative sense ("Do it because of X, Y, and X."). In the former case, the kids rebel and end up worse off. In the latter case, the kids make some mistakes but eventually come around.
My parents were somewhere in the middle. They occasionally provided reasons for their requests or demands, but just as often it was "because I'm your mother/father and said so", and neither was shy to lay down punishments.
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My parents were somewhere in the middle. They occasionally provided reasons for their requests or demands, but just as often it was "because I'm your mother/father and said so", and neither was shy to lay down punishments.
No one is all one or the other, obviously; the question is whether they default to reasons and punish if you still ignore them, or if they immediately start with threats and ultimata.
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I would guess (and research seems to support) that it matters if the parents are more often strict in the authoritarian sense ("Do it because I told you to, and will punish you if you disobey") or in an authoritative sense ("Do it because of X, Y, and Z."). In the former case, the kids rebel and end up worse off. In the latter case, the kids make some mistakes but eventually come around.
BOTH of those are far different from permissive parenting ("Do it or don't do it; your call") or negligent parenting (no guidance at all).
I think you're missing a very common theme around my area: "If you do xxx, then yyy will happen. Are you willing to live with the consequences of yyy?"
(And then secretly making sure that yyy happens Every. Single. Time. so your kids think you're some kind of super-genius. Teenagers are amazingly perception-poor in general, so ensuring negative outcomes without them seeing the "hand of Dad" isn't that hard...)
My parents were annoyingly, amazingly, astonishingly good at predicting EXACTLY what would happen if I took an action.
So I learned to listen to them and not take those actions for which I did not want to suffer their predicted consequences.
EDIT: Unfortunately, work finally reared its ugly head and roared at me today, and I have "weekend before Halloween" work all weekend (speaking of pesky kids), so I'll leave the debate 'til Monday. I'll keep reading, just in bits and snippets as I get a chance.
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This analogy popped into my head in my sleep-addled stupid-o'clock state this morning:
This entire thread has been like being a scientist working with volatile chemicals who has discovered that when you mix chemicals X and Y they explode, but if you mix chemicals X and Z they settle into a stable and useful alloy/mixture/whatever.
But when they go to present this to fellow scientists, the resounding response is "That's impossible, every experiment of our shows it's mixing X and Z that causes the explosion, and X and Y creates the stable compound!"
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My parents were somewhere in the middle. They occasionally provided reasons for their requests or demands, but just as often it was "because I'm your mother/father and said so", and neither was shy to lay down punishments.No one is all one or the other, obviously; the question is whether they default to reasons and punish if you still ignore them, or if they immediately start with threats and ultimata.
It's hard to say. On the one hand, they didn't usually actively give threats unless we were currently acting up and had resisted further requests (with reasons given or not) to behave.
On the other hand, their reason for not stating threats was because we had been raised to know that if we acted up, we'd be punished. So there wasn't a need to lay out the threats every time, because we were expected to know they were there.
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(Also, I'm trying so hard not to be a helicopter parent, but... but... he knows things withoooooouuuuut meeeeeeeee~! Wwaaaaaaahhhhhhh~! He's so awesooooooommmmeee~!)*
* I may or may not be awake while posting this. Also, the amount of sleep I currently have may or may not be close to an hour. Weeeeeeeeee~!
Spoiler'd because or my quantum state of potential sleep deprivation aside, I recognized it for the off topic it is!
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I wonder if it's that when the kids of really strict parents do rebel, they're more likely to go all the way? They'll be in big trouble anyway for the small infractions, so why stop there. While the children of looser parents might go part way without worrying too much about consequences, but still know there's big trouble if they go too far.
Obviously some won't rebel and will stay well-behaved.
That's kind of what Justin was saying, where once you hit the point of "welp I'm in trouble, might as well have fun while I can before I'm busted". It's a mindset I can kinda see the logic behind, sort of. It was always thwarted in my own case because my parents were willing to assign cumulative punishments if misbehavior continued - for example, my brother got grounded for a week for something I can't recall, but his ensuing temper tantrums and arguments got that extended into several months by the time the conversation ended. So the whole idea of "I'm already in trouble, might as well keep misbehaving because it can't get worse" never worked for me because yes, it would get worse.
That's kind of what Justin was saying, where once you hit the point of "welp I'm in trouble, might as well have fun while I can before I'm busted".I wonder if it's that when the kids of really strict parents do rebel, they're more likely to go all the way? They'll be in big trouble anyway for the small infractions, so why stop there. While the children of looser parents might go part way without worrying too much about consequences, but still know there's big trouble if they go too far.
Obviously some won't rebel and will stay well-behaved.
i can honestly say from my perspective, i thought i'd always get away with it, in fact i was always shocked when i was caught, and of course being a teenager happened more then i'd like:)
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** spoiler omitted **
Spoiler'd because or my quantum state of potential sleep deprivation aside, I recognized it for the off topic it is!
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** spoiler omitted **
Spoiler'd because or my quantum state of potential sleep deprivation aside, I recognized it for the off topic it is!
Your bed. It calls to you. Give in to temptation! ^_^ Also, the captain is correct, you're doing fine.
So, as we're currently on the topic of boundaries and punishments, a question that has puzzled me. Why is disappointing others sometimes an effective form of punishment, and why isn't it at others?
As I mentioned up thread, the primary punishment I received, after the age of 8 or so, was knowing that I'd disappointed my parents. That was it. I'd know they'd be disappointed, or I might see it in their faces, and I'd be crushed and vow to myself never to do it again. Why did this happen and why was it effective?
Even today, independent adult and all, if my parents requested something, I'd almost certainly do it. The thought of disobeying a actual command is, while not unthinkable, foreign. That just isn't how the world works. Yes, I have sometimes wondered if they slipped mind-control nanobots into my cereal as a child.
Orthos, I think your analogy is pretty accurate. We may all be talking about X, Y, and Z, and we're even using the same labels, but each of the variables is slightly different in each experiment. X with Y explodes, unless it's Xa or Yi-Yo, but if you use Xa with Yk then it melts a hole in the floor, and Z forms are great alloy if you're using the later sequence of X, but if you add....
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I honestly can't answer that. The "I'm very disappointed in you" speech was always part of every punishment, especially the typical pre-spanking lecture, but it was never considered a punishment itself, and certainly not a replacement for whipping, grounding, taking away whatever item would cause the most regret (usually the SNES, Gameboys, or Laptop), or other forms of actual punishment.
Honestly the most effective punishment for me was the latter option. Grounding did squat as I spent most of my time in my room anyway. Spankings put a good fear in me, yeah, but I got over them within an hour or so. Losing my video games for a week or so hurt.
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Everyone wants to be liked, especially by those you respect and look up to. Still, some are just wired to take approval/disapproval to heart. Some to the point of becoming sycophantic yes men.
Parenting is always a learn as you go activity and really is never the same even between your own children. My daughter and son were almost exact opposites growing up and so required different handling. You get through one child and think you did great, then you have another...
As a kid come here I'm going to hit you" was the prelude to me spending 5 or so hours in the woods, making my dad come in to find me, then not leading him home until he was too tired (not the best sense of direction)
As a teen hitting really wasn't on the table. I think i "tied" with dad when i was 12 by diving between his legs, letting him hit the nightstand instead of me and almost taking him out at the knees. By 14 it was shrug off punch, grab by dad by neck , throw dad into wall. Neither were a common occurrence thankfully.
Well my dad was a public school teacher and a social worker so there was no way I was gonna match him in fisticuffs, I remeber using the F word at my mom once when I was 15 or 16 and dad laying me out in a second but that was it, he was a good dad:)
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
Spoiler'd because or my quantum state of potential sleep deprivation aside, I recognized it for the off topic it is!
*we both have big families