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GM Lamplighter wrote:
There is no "campaign mode" for modules (although perhaps there should be).
I am assuming you know that the new 64 page format modules all have "campaign mode" options?
But that statement is true for the vast majority of modules.
What are the current guidelines for running Thornkeep levels?
If I am running Thornkeep level 2, do I have to have run Thornkeep level 1 before I do? Do I have restrict it to only players (or PCs) that have played TK Level 1 before?
Two or three months ago, I ran a table friends thru Thornkeep Level 2. I set this up to run at my home, for friends, but was doing it much like I would run a scenario... and I looked over the parts listed as covered by the chronicle given.
Realizing that it was a bit short, and not really wanting to spoil Level 1 for several of the players that might not have played it I created a one page handout titled "Pathfinder Society Briefing Documents on River Kingdoms village of Thornkeep" and the following VC Briefing.
Thornkeep Level 2 VC Briefing:
Once all the PCs were seated around the table in the briefing room, the venture captain cleared her through and began the briefing.
“Ok, Pathfinders, listen up, as this mission is a little different.
“Just outside of a little village in River Kingdoms is an old Azlanti ruin the Society has been investigating. We had found a number of clues to its location from the local goblin tribes of all things. It seems they were in possession of a number of Azlanit artifacts they had looted from the site in the past. After we had recovered those from the goblins, we sent in teams to see what else was there. Overall the initial team has done a fine job of setting up the investigation of this site. Ss it seems that in this case another Patherfinder team has done the ground work for you, cracked the magical entrance, and cleared the upper level.
“But during the course of their work, they discovered signs of a renegade madman named Krenar Half-face operating in the area. Though a former associate researcher with the Society some years ago, he used his access to Society vaults at that time to steal several items and disappear. In the years sense then, we believe Krenar has drifted even more into madness, and has used the tools he took from the Society to transform not only himself, but to warp the minds and bodies of many unwilling victims who have crossed his path. From information we have gleaned from the goblins in the upper levels of the Accursed Halls, we think that Krenar is seeking more powerful artifacts, or perhaps knowledge, in these ruins.
“Your primary mission simple. Capture or kill Krenar, and recover any Society property he might still have in his possession, or any Azlanti artifacts he might have uncovered at this site.
“You will notice that the briefing materials you have received do not mention Krenar. Because of the nature of his actions after leaving the Society, we would rather our former association with him never becomes known outside of this room. Any mention that he might have at one time been associated with the Society will be deigned. Clearly any such claims are just the ravings of a madman.
“Your team was chosen because some of you have in the past met Krenar Half-face, and should be able to recognize him. I need say no more on this subject.
“Find him. Stop him.
“Oh, and good luck.”
I selected one of the PCs to have had contact with Krenar in the past, stating that he had abducted and killed one of the PCs family members - and we RPed that at the table with the VC. (the player did a fine job of taking the story hook and running with it...).
So, yeah... We can easily expand on the "required to run" sections, often to produce a "better RP experience"... but are those persons who don't doing it wrong? Are they having "badwrongfun"? If I insist on not running it unless I am given what I consider enough time, am I "doing it right"? I want to be sure I am "having fun right"... sorta...
If I volunteer to Judge a game at a local CON, and the Coordinator asks me to prep "#9-13 Whips and Midgets" for slot 4... do I tell him that it runs long the way I do it, and to please change the CON Schedule so that Slot 4 is 6+ hours. So that I can run the 2 hours of additions that I think it needs to cover the background info... stuff not in the normal scenario? You know, background setting for playing in the city of Korvosa, detailing stuff like the way Guards work (they don't really have a City Watch - it's all private contractors), and the interplay of politics among the noble families in the city...
I know more about Kaer Maga than many other Judges/Players... so when running City of Strangers scenarios I know much of the "background" info about the city... should I ensure that I have extra game time when I run CoS scenarios - so that I can give more of the "...amazing RP encounters that can be had in the town..."? or do I just stick with the portions of the city covered by the scenario that I am running? the part the PCs are getting credit for?
When I agree to Judge at a PFS event (at a CON or at a local game store) I give up a lot of my control (even more than I do when running a PFS event)- and I often have to curb my normally verbose tendencies to "RP to the Max"... We have certain things we need to cover (detailed in the scenario) - and a time slot we need to do that in. I always run long as it is... But there is a story line I need to TRY to stick to. If the players, bless their little black hearts, drive this train off the tracks and into the woods, I need to gently guide it back to the plot and "get us into the station in time". Sometimes I can do this so well the players never notice - sometimes I need to say something like... "Guys, we need to wrap up the Orgy at the Temple, and get on with the adventure...".
Can I cover the extras in a home game? Sure! I might spend days getting to the first scene... For example I wrote 3 separate adventures that I ran before PCs got to the first town in the AP "The Haunting of Harrowstone" (Carrion Crown Part 1). The PCs traveled to the Town from where they started... We were running it in Campaign mode, so we "had the time and the freedom" to play...
But if we aren't running it in Campaign mode? I'm sure not going to change around the treasure rewards like I did to customize the loot to fit the PCs playing. In a PFS event I don't have that freedom... the PCs get what's on the Chronicle. And at a CON I have even less control... my time slots are assigned.
So telling a judge that running Thornkeep in a 4 or 5 hour CON timeslot is badwrongfun is not ... helpful. Saying that "The St. Louis crowd was fond of running Thornkeep levels in 4-hour slots..." as Chris did above, esp. without asking anyone who got stuck doing this (as least as far as I am aware Chris did not ask any of the Judges) is ... also not helpful. And I, as one of the players who played in the first run of Thornkeep in the St. Louis area, found it somewhat insulting. I played Thornkeep as Paizo said it was available to be played. I found it lacking, and stated so at the time. To have someone as experienced as Chris (who I have a lot of respect for, and give his opinion a lot of weight normaly) then lump me into a group "...fond of running Thornkeep levels in 4-hour slots..." - without even asking my opinion! - really bothered me. It felt like someone said "you're playing wrong!", and kind of hurt.
sorry, I've needed to get that off my plate for several days now, and have been unable to compose a rational comment to this thread...
If you're playing PFS with a 7PM start time and a varying store close of 11:30pm, truncating beginning to a standard VC briefing q&a and starting at the dungeon entrance is more than fine given it is a basic dungeon crawl. I doubt I can GM L1 in under 5 hours, but the other levels seem/have been doable in that period with our playerbase.
I rarely assign GM credit to my PFS characters. I like to play them 3 times per level like most of my players play theirs. Though one time I did assign GM credit was to bump my 2nd level PC (5 XP) to 3rd (6 XP) so that he could join in a Thornkeep adventure. After 3 hours of play he would have been 4th (9 XP), so I decided to do slow track for 3rd level instead (7.5 XP). Three PFS scenarios later on slow track (1.5 XP) he reached 4th level. I played this character three times at 1st level, twice at 2nd, and four times at 3rd - average of playing three times per level maintained.
What are the current guidelines for running Thornkeep levels?
If I am running Thornkeep level 2, do I have to have run Thornkeep level 1 before I do? Do I have restrict it to only players (or PCs) that have played TK Level 1 before?
Nope. They're independent levels, although Level 1 has a boon that makes the deeper levels easier. I ran Thornkeep at Origins last summer, and had almost entirely different groups each level. The story suffered, the way you might imagine, but each level is sort of self-contained.
The most damaged levels are James Jacobs' level -- without spoilers, there are two ways into that level, and knowing the background can help a party make intelligent decisions about when to flee -- and Erik Mona's level -- which is fairly opaque without background information on the NPCs.
Quote:
If I volunteer to Judge a game at a local CON, and the Coordinator asks me to prep "#9-13 Whips and Midgets" for slot 4... do I tell him that it runs long the way I do it, and to please change the CON Schedule so that Slot 4 is 6+ hours. So that I can run the 2 hours of additions that I think it needs to cover the background info... stuff not in the normal scenario? You know, background setting for playing in the city of Korvosa, detailing stuff like the way Guards work (they don't really have a City Watch - it's all private contractors), and the interplay of politics among the noble families in the city...
--
We're asked to run adventures "as written," both scenarios and modules. For example, if the module has random encounters, we should roll for those. Running Thornkeep as written uses the town, for suport, rumors, trade, etc. Running, say, Green Market and adding a lot of stuff about Korvosa is adding stuff to a scenario. (As long as you don't add encounters, I imagine that the campaign leadership would approve.)
Having said that, you're always welcome to ask the coordinator for whatever you please, nosig, but the coordinator might well tell you that it's impossible to meet your request. In which case, you have the choice to either run as asked or decline.
What are the current guidelines for running Thornkeep levels?
If I am running Thornkeep level 2, do I have to have run Thornkeep level 1 before I do? Do I have restrict it to only players (or PCs) that have played TK Level 1 before?
Nope. They're independent levels, although Level 1 has a boon that makes the deeper levels easier. I ran Thornkeep at Origins last summer, and had almost entirely different groups each level. The story suffered, the way you might imagine, but each level is sort of self-contained.
The most damaged levels are James Jacobs' level -- without spoilers, there are two ways into that level, and knowing the background can help a party make intelligent decisions about when to flee -- and Erik Mona's level -- which is fairly opaque without background information on the NPCs.
Quote:
If I volunteer to Judge a game at a local CON, and the Coordinator asks me to prep "#9-13 Whips and Midgets" for slot 4... do I tell him that it runs long the way I do it, and to please change the CON Schedule so that Slot 4 is 6+ hours. So that I can run the 2 hours of additions that I think it needs to cover the background info... stuff not in the normal scenario? You know, background setting for playing in the city of Korvosa, detailing stuff like the way Guards work (they don't really have a City Watch - it's all private contractors), and the interplay of politics among the noble families in the city...
--
We're asked to run adventures "as written," both scenarios and modules. For example, if the module has random encounters, we should roll for those. Running Thornkeep as written uses the town, for suport, rumors, trade, etc. Running, say, Green Market and adding a lot of stuff about Korvosa is adding stuff to a scenario. (As long as you don't add encounters, I imagine that the campaign leadership would approve.)
Having said that, you're always welcome to ask the coordinator for whatever you please, nosig, but...
So, it is your contention that the correct answer to "What are the current guidelines for running Thornkeep levels?" is:
"We're asked to run adventures 'as written',.... Running Thornkeep as written uses the town, for suport, rumors, trade, etc." and therefor running it without starting the PCs in the Town is NOT running it "as written" and NOT sanctioned for PFS play?
Is that correct? I mean, that can't be what you mean... right? Sorry, I am just confused at this point.
We are told that the portions of Thornkeep that award Chronicles are only those portions on selected pages. For example, in order to get Chronicle #2 the PCs must play a majority of the encounters on pages 38 thru 45. The actual "Modual" has been modified from what is published for use in PFS. So, if I were to run the PCs thru encounters in the town for the first 3 hours while they complete "information gathering" and encounter much of the backstory and do a lot of FUN (I really enjoy the RP you see), and one of my players get's pulled away by real life, I would have to award him "a zeroed out chronicle". He had not completed any of the actual encounters covered by the chronicle - even though the rest of the players in the adventure may finish the rest of the adventure in 3 more hours.
If given one of these sections to run at a CON, I am sure that I can present a fun game for the players that will fill all the available time - if that happens to be a 5 hour slot, or three slots covering all day (15 hours). If the guy pulled early has finished half of the adventure, I will try my darnest to insure that he get's half the credit and all his shair of the treasure gained up to that point. And there will be just as much RP I can squeeze in - (and still cover enough of the adventure for the players to get the Chronicle that covers the time he was able to spend with us). Just like I would do if assigned any other scenario to run. (Heck, I could have a lot of fun running First Steps in an 8 hour slot!)
But, saying that "The St. Louis crowd was fond of running Thornkeep levels in 4-hour slots..." I do not think is true. And I am part of that "St. Louis crowd". In one CON that I know of in the St. Louis area Thornkeep was run in 5 hour slots... and I really only know of one CON that ran them back-to-back and that was when they were first released. It is possible that I missed other local CONs that repeated this practice... but we have heard from other posters that have encountered this outside of the St. Louis area.
I usually stay out of threads/posts like this but I'm with Nosig on this one, Chris. Calling out ANY region as badwrongfun for finding a workable way to offer this at a convention in 5 hour slots is wrong. Specifying the "St. Louis area" when it has obliviously been done elsewhere as well and then saying "But my post stands" gives him quite the right to feel offended, as a resident of that area.
I ran ALL of Thornkeep at our local convention as a "draw" when it was first released. Yes. there are parts of this that are enhanced by the use of the town itself; run properly for the full experience, it becomes the Pathfinder version of Keep on the Borderlands. But for PFS, all that is required is the sections themselves. In order to provide the PCs with information they would discover in town, I provided a VC briefing for each of the levels, with a field mission Venture Captain getting the team up to date on the mission, and Knowledge checks to help facilitate level specific information that would otherwise be unobtainable. In order to make it fit the convention, we ran it in a certain way, so that Level 1 and Level 5 ran on Friday and Sunday, since both of those slots could be extended without crossing over into another. I don't recall ANYONE that played through them felling "cheated" over the way it was run... and we had two full tables of it during the convention. In short, it was a success.
Was I wrong to offer something unique for my convention and to give it the proper PFS feel? No stat-blocks were altered; no encounters were changed. I gauge whether something is badwrongfun by one simple measurement: Did the players have fun? And they did.
We're asked to run adventures "as written," both scenarios and modules. For example, if the module has random encounters, we should roll for those. Running Thornkeep as written uses the town, for suport, rumors, trade, etc. Running, say, Green Market and adding a lot of stuff about Korvosa is adding stuff to a scenario. (As long as you don't add encounters, I imagine that the campaign leadership would approve.)
Having said that, you're always welcome to ask the coordinator for whatever you please, nosig, but the coordinator might well tell you that it's impossible to meet your request. In which case, you have the choice to either run as asked or decline.
Where is this stated, because my assumption based on all the PFs rules I know is that you are not allowed to make up a bunch of stuff happening in town. So I am not sure how the additions to either Thornkeep or Green Market are different.
The town is in the book, but then again in APs there are a bunch of things in the book which are not part of the sanctioned portion which can be used for PFS. Was this ever actually discussed or is it just a longstanding executive decision by big-name DMs which has become accepted practice. Either way is fine, but I am curious.
I personally enjoyed the running of the town, plus we had to look up several of my clerics abilities
Dont Remember Which level of Thornkeep this was but might be spoilerish:
as I used one of them on an NPC who looked like he was suffering some kind of fear effect with regards to returning to Thornkeep (to give him another save against any ongoing enchantment effects and the GM rolled a 20), Fortunately my ability did not apply (as the effect was Necromantic in origin) or I might possibly have broken the module within the first 20 minutes.
It took us more than 1 hour to reach the town of Thornkeep for Part 1 (which I enjoyed immensely as it meant my half-orc got to run along beside the horses the whole way to Thornkeep).
However this is why I prefer to do AP parts and Modules with home groups rather than at conventions, as you do have to cut things to get it all to fit within the timeslot of the convention.
I ran all 5 levels of Thornkeep for a group that includes our new VC and 2 of our VLs and 3 other experienced players. None of the sessions took less than 5 hours. And I warned them of the perils of the dungeon and they tailored their group to be able to deal with it.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeff Merola wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Sorry Chris, but last year we did a full con running Thornkeep in single slots. I've run all the levels except the highest lvl multiple times and they've all been about 5 hours.
Every time we've done it, we've allocated and run two full slots for each. If you're squeezing it down to 5 hours, you must be leaving something out.
Or perhaps they're running it for parties that can finish the combat portions quicker than others.
Strange as it may seem to some, standards for modules, scenarios, and the overall PFS experience aren't set by the elite one percent. For most mere humans, Thornkeep will take those full two slots at convention, and sometimes a bit more.
another link to the same thread. - - "...I also include a lot of interaction with the townsfolk of Thornkeep, both a resources for the PCs and to provide rumors and such. That can add an extra hour or two to the run."
Thornkeep will take at least 5 full slots... wait, you mean each Level of Thornkeep will take 2 slots? So 10 game sessions to cover the five sactioned sections of it? Is there any CON where this is done?
I'm in the process of doing the paperwork for exactly that for Origins. I'm planning 5 six-hour sessions for the whole thing.
Yeah, I'm insane but at least it's RP-light. That's much easier for *me* to GM.
Thornkeep will take at least 5 full slots... wait, you mean each Level of Thornkeep will take 2 slots? So 10 game sessions to cover the five sactioned sections of it? Is there any CON where this is done?
I'm in the process of doing the paperwork for exactly that for Origins. I'm planning 5 six-hour sessions for the whole thing.
Yeah, I'm insane but at least it's RP-light. That's much easier for *me* to GM.
How? I mean how are you getting 6 hour sessions? or are you intending the PCs should run thru all the sessions (and ignoring normal slot start times)? Or do you switch some out? Are all the gameing sessions 6 hours long? What do you do when someone only wants to play Level 3?
I've ran Thornkeep multiple times, and the only level that takes more than 5 hours for me is Sanctum of a Lost Age. In fact, The Dark Menagerie and The Forgotten Lab both finished in about 3.5 hours each time.
Thornkeep will take at least 5 full slots... wait, you mean each Level of Thornkeep will take 2 slots? So 10 game sessions to cover the five sactioned sections of it? Is there any CON where this is done?
I'm in the process of doing the paperwork for exactly that for Origins. I'm planning 5 six-hour sessions for the whole thing.
Yeah, I'm insane but at least it's RP-light. That's much easier for *me* to GM.
How? I mean how are you getting 6 hour sessions? or are you intending the PCs should run thru all the sessions (and ignoring normal slot start times)? Or do you switch some out? Are all the gameing sessions 6 hours long? What do you do when someone only wants to play Level 3?
Actually, that's a very good question. I was unable to find a previous year schedule for Origins and I've only been there once (during my miniature games-only phase) so I have no idea what "normal" Origins slots look like. The submission sheet just asks what hour it starts and how long it runs.
I've been guessing based on smaller cons I've been to and assumed that a noon-6 slot would allow people to play in the evening as well. Morning games seem to be the lightest played, so I thought this would minimize conflicts.
Can any more experienced vets describe the common Origins slots?
