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As the title suggests: why is a 3-hour combat mission worth 3 times the experience of a 5-hour Pathfinder mission?
Alternatively, why is a 3-hour combat encounter worth the equivalent of a sanctioned AP chapter, which takes 8-12 hours, has more combats, and also social encounters, puzzles, traps, etc? Isn't all the non-combat Pathfinding worth XP and PP?
This affects both sides of the GM screen. As an example, Thornkeep level 2 is 8 single-sided pages of material, of which 1 is a full-page map and one is a full-page of fluff text/artwork. So, six pages to prep, versus 15-30 for a regular PFS scenario, to get 3 times the Chronicle for GM credit and double the GM star credit. (This last part also applies to the Free RPG "modules", which count double for GMing for some reason.)
Note: this is not just a style complaint - I can choose to not run/play Thornkeep levels if I don't like them, and I know lots of players do like them. But why is the in-game reward for killing higher than that for exploring, reporting, and cooperating?
* I also recognize it's not just about time spent at the table - if everyone has fun at whatever pace they play, good for them. I think rewards should be equalized for different styles of play, though.
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I ran Thornkeep once. My players never wish to go there again. If the players make it through Level One I do feel they deserve a full level of experience, that being IF they make it through...
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I can see a few reasons for this. In the past it was mentioned that it would be too difficult to have different systems on Paizo for each module. This was brought up when it was asked why free RPG day modules counted as 2 for GM stars.
Also I am sure they want to stick to the module rules in the guide as close as possible so not to have too much confusion. Having different rules for thornkeep vs the other modules might have been bit confusing to some.
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We played through the first level last weekend and I walked away feeling like I'd cheated. Granted, most of us were already playing lvl 2 characters, so that probably factored into it. It was literally the easiest level I'd "earned" on a PFS character. The GM did say that it'll only get harder as it continues and there may even be some floors that have to be split into multiple nights. But yeah, the first level was a joke.
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We played through the first level last weekend and I walked away feeling like I'd cheated. Granted, most of us were already playing lvl 2 characters, so that probably factored into it. It was literally the easiest level I'd "earned" on a PFS character. The GM did say that it'll only get harder as it continues and there may even be some floors that have to be split into multiple nights. But yeah, the first level was a joke.
** spoiler omitted **
From your spoiler... you're talking about Emerald Spire. The original post was about Thornkeep.
The Thornkeep scenarios do have encounters that in a traditional "earn 300 XP" approach would total approximately enough to level each time (for 4 players).
Emerald Spire has a fair amount of Story XP in most levels - which means that if your GM is ignoring the interlocking story of the Spire and just doing individual "combat levels" you are progressing faster than you should. Even with that most levels of Emerald Spire don't have enough XP, hence the reason why the last level is for 11-13 characters instead of 15-17.
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Which level are you saying is just a 3 hour combat mission? . . .
It's completely down to your GM. I have run them all as well (some multiple times). Most had to squeeze to get into a 5-hour slot. I would have preferred 6-7 for the Vaults and 8-12 for the Sanctum. I ran the Sanctum at a convention and was very much not happy at all I had to cut to get it to fit.
But when I played it we blew through it. Because the GM was one of those "OK, next room, here's some bad guys, let's get initiative" types. Even for encounters that could have been resolved peacefully we weren't given that option (if we didn't attack, whatever we were facing would).
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The St. Louis crowd was fond of running Thornkeep levels in 4-hour slots -- whoo-hoo, my new PC is 4th level after a day! -- but my attitude is that doing so short-circuits the strength of the adventure. Those sessions start with "You're at the doors to the Accursed Halls..." and entirely side-step the town of Thornkeep, which I think is a shame.
Not only is Thornkeep chock-full of useful gear, rumors, NPCs willing to cut prices for bold adventurers, a ghetto that can turn the goblin combats into something else, etc ... but it's one of Paizo's versions of Hommlet or Sandmarsh. This is the cool part of Thornkeep: it's the ancient gamer trope of the town sitting atop the ancient tomb: malignant, mystical, and mysterious.
Every time I talk to players who are upset about the encounter that Kadasbrass references, I ask them why they didn't take the hints about that character available at the Blue Basilisk. Why didn't they go into that encounter fore-warned? And the answer is always the same: we ignored the town. Okay then.
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Thornkeep was written as a full campaign. If you're only counting time in combat in the levels, you're running it wrong. Thornkeep is meant to be run the same as a module, but the role-play and story parts are left much more to the GM to work out rather than be written in like Murder's Mark or Carrion Hill or others. This is partly due to the size of the book and partly because each level is meant to be a segment of the overall arch.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Eric, how much of the town do you use? (When I ran James Jacobs' level at Origins, and Erik Mona's level locally, I had single fights that took over 5 hours!)
nosig, I'm sure it has happened in other places. But my post stands. And I'm not trying to make any blanket statements. I'm only reporting my own experiences; for example, I wasn't aware of what Eric was doing in Michigan.
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I've run all of the Thornkeep levels, and I think I've run Accursed Halls seven times now (in addition to playing it almost as much).
Only once did it ever take us more than 4 hours to get through Accursed Halls, and that was because that particular party had two very inattentive young players.
I explain some of the backstory, give some of the rumors, and link the adventure to the Society by explaining that three Pathfinders recently went missing and Ambrus Valsin would like to find out what happened to them. I roleplay the Goblins and have them sing during combat. I get very descriptive when it comes to the illusory mist, and try to tailor it to each PC. Everyone has a blast.
But it shouldn't take longer than 4 hours.
The other levels may.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Eric, how much of the town do you use? (When I ran James Jacobs' level at Origins, and Erik Mona's level locally, I had single fights that took over 5 hours!)
About as much as I use of Absalom when I run something like Delirium's Tangle, To Delve the Dungeon Deep, or The Confirmation.
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I start with the town, and I play it by feel how "into it" the group is. If they're the type that just want to "get down to business" then I usually make it pretty easy to find the entrance and get to it. If they really seem to dig exploring the town, it can be a while before they even remember they're there to delve a dungeon.
I've never had the first part run longer that 4-5 hours, though. And we only came up on that with a fairly "talky" group.
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Emerald Spire, at least the first level, is the one that I see having the potential to give an entire level in less time than it takes to run "The Confirmation" if you have the right race / class combination. I've heard of Thornkeep being run fairly fast, though a lot of the maps are BIG and the time I played it, it was a close to seven hour slog.
I personally don't see the super-dungeons being a fast way to level up as necessarily a bad thing. For one, the fast XP is balanced out by (usually) lower GP and PP than one would earn succeeding in three scenarios of the same level. It's also useful to have them available as a "catch up" so that newer players in the area can get a character into the higher tier tables faster than three months.
As for GM Credit... that's really an artifact of the system. At this point it would be hard to change without people suddenly losing a star from Free RPG Day credit.
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Why do Thornkeep levels count as "modules" for PFS credit?
Because several years ago, the people that play a bunch of PFS demanded that things like Modules and APs (which do not at all lend themselves to the PFS format) be declared PFS-compatible because they were literally running out of scenarios to play. The solution was to create Chronicle sheets for Modules and APs in an attempt to shoehorn them into the PFS structure.
This is still going on today, but at a lower volume. Look in the Emerald Spire product thread. The day it was released, people were asking when they could have Chronicle Sheets for it.
-Skeld
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I've only played The Accursed Halls once, and it took us seven hours. I'm not sure what could be different to have people taking only four. And we even skipped one room after coming at it from both ends. (Crypt breaker alchemist handled the locked door pretty easily.)
Running it both locally and online, I have had Accursed Halls run as short as 4 hours, with a VC briefing on rumors and information, to over 12 hours, including a potential TPK against the highest CR encounter.
In all the times I have run it, I think the <redacted> has hit only once, and that was a second level PC...
How long it takes, and how well the group does, depends on the PCs and players. Last time I ran it locally, we called it, after 6 hours, and only one "wing" of the dungeon, due to time.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Kinevon, agreed. Particularly since (a) a party that doesn't rest before hitting that encounter is probably going to be exhausted of attacks that do the most damage to it, and (b) if the PCs flee back the way they came, they're heading back to an area that makes it stronger.
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Kinevon, agreed. Particularly since (a) a party that doesn't rest before hitting that encounter is probably going to be exhausted of attacks that do the most damage to it, and (b) if the PCs flee back the way they came, they're heading back to an area that makes it stronger.
Yeah.
The wight can be instant death, but it has a fairly low to hit bonus, and it starts prone, so it is entirely possible that it never gets an attack because no one ends up within 5' step range, it attacks from prone with a flat D20 roll to hit, or it likely gets killed just trying to stand up.
The shadow, however:
1) uses a touch attack, so has a fairly good chance of hitting most targets
2) is incorporeal, so only affected, at that at 50% damage, from magic weapons (for a first level party?) and positive energy (like channels). And, to be honest, it will take several channels, for a 1st level Cleric (1d6, DC 14 or so), to take it out. It gets easier (not easy, just easier) if you have a party including some experienced PCs, since that means that they might have a wand of CLW with them, although that is only 1d8+1, DC11 for half. Best chance, withotu preparing for this with Oils of Magic Weapon, is if the party has an Aasimar or half-elf Oracle of Life at second level who took the FCB of +1/2 revelation for both levels, so channels as a third level cleric, and is Charisma-based, so 2d6, DC 15 or 16 save for half.
3) Depending on the target, it can potentially create a spawn, a new shadow, after only one or two hits. Gnome Illusionist Wizard with Str as a dump stat to 5? That would give the Shadow a one-shot kill, ignoring criticals, of 33% on the first hit.
4) It has a fly speed of 40', which is faster than the general run of PCs, other than a few builds, or magical spells, which would be low on a 1st or 2nd level spellcasters list. Maybe a wand of Magic Missle.
things a 1st & 2nd level party might have available to handle this creature:
Channel Energy
CLW (spell slots or from wands)
Magic Missile (spell slots or from wands)
Magic Weapon (Oil, spell slots or wand)
Bless Weapon (Oil or from a wand)
Ghostbane Dirge (scroll, I think, would be about the only legal source for it, at this level)
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Took us 7 hours or so to play level 1.
I would have been very disappointed if our GM had skipped the town. There are some amazing RP encounters that can be had in the town.
If you are trying to fit the levels into a single 4 or 5 hour convention slot, then yeah, you gotta skip the town.
But I really suggest not doing this.
Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Asheville
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Kinevon, agreed. Particularly since (a) a party that doesn't rest before hitting that encounter is probably going to be exhausted of attacks that do the most damage to it, and (b) if the PCs flee back the way they came, they're heading back to an area that makes it stronger.Yeah.
** spoiler omitted **...
- Holy water;
- A divine caster with the Souls subdomain.
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I would have been very disappointed if our GM had skipped the town. There are some amazing RP encounters that can be had in the town.
If you are trying to fit the levels into a single 4 or 5 hour convention slot, then yeah, you gotta skip the town.
But I really suggest not doing this.
I could never play Thornkeep or Emerald Spire at a con. It's just a total waste to not include the local towns in each of those respective modules. Personally, I'm involved in two seperate groups for ES, one that I'm playing in, another that I'm GMing. As a player, I don't get to experience Ft. Inevitable at all, which I find very disappointing. I'm loving the table I'm running as I've been mixing in touches here and there of town conflicts, random side missions, and political intrigue. It certainly brings the whole module to life as opposed to "let's see if you can survive this massive dungeon crawl".
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We played through the first level last weekend and I walked away feeling like I'd cheated. Granted, most of us were already playing lvl 2 characters, so that probably factored into it. It was literally the easiest level I'd "earned" on a PFS character. The GM did say that it'll only get harder as it continues and there may even be some floors that have to be split into multiple nights. But yeah, the first level was a joke.
** spoiler omitted **
From your spoiler... you're talking about Emerald Spire. The original post was about Thornkeep.
** spoiler omitted **
Responding to your spoiler.
Everyone was either a tiefling/aasimar except for the cleric which I believe was human. We had a tiefling paladin, tiefling magus, tiefling bloodrager, aasimar bard, aasimar hunter, and one more who was melee oriented, I don't remember what.
You're right that it was the emerald spire and not thornkeep, but the sentiments are the same, it was the easiest level I've ever earned in PFS.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Ah... Having played that level of ES recently, I can say that racial picks make a big difference.
I will also agree that the town is the best part of Emerald Spire. There's so much intrigue that cannot be handled with melee! I love the subtle nastiness of Fort Inevitable.
Hmm
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Alas, there's nothing stopping a GM from skipping the town, or in fact even telling them it's a good idea to run it. The way PFS APs are sanctioned, you get credit for running the sanctioned segment and nothing else. There is no "campaign mode" for modules (although perhaps there should be).
Thornkeep levels give way too much reward for the time required to play them. Dawn of the Scarlet Sun and the recent mummy Free RPG module were both lethal as well, but only gave 1 XP. Thornkeep should be the same as those.
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Alternate fix: right now, real modules are assumed to run in several sessions, and you lose 1XP/1PP per missed session. If we defined a "session" as a set amount of time, there could be a reasonable minimum time requirement to qualify as playing the module, even for shorter ones like Thornkeep or Free RPG Day modules. So, running Thornkeep in 3 hours would be worth 2XP and 3PP, say.
This would also address issues like the "run Fallen Fortress 5 times in a day with the same players to get locked-in aasmiars before the deadline" that happened recently, as well - we heard of a 29-minute run-though at the end of the day, still worth 1XP for every player and 2 star credits for the GM.)