Which first and second level spells remain viable at higher levels?

[Sanstree]

Druid/wizard all day long......

[strayshift]

Te'Shen wrote:

tsuruki wrote:

Did you consider swaping around the classes you will be "Theuring"? The Wiz/Cleric already have spell variety, you could go for raw amount by selecting Sor/Oracle.

Without some sort of early entry, which the OP seems dead set against, both classes get 2nd level spells at 4th level. You would have to be Sorcerer 4/Oracle 4 before you could go into mystic theurge. I don't feel the charisma synergy is enough to cover the delay.

Others might disagree.

Totally agree I am patient but not so patient as 10th level to get 3rd level spells. The nature of the M.T. to also swap divine/arcane magic also suits the spontaneous caster better too but the progression is just too slow sadly.

[strayshift]

Te'Shen wrote:

strayshift wrote:

Te'Shen wrote:

** spoiler omittedd **

Cheers, please feel free to ignore the original post in the thread.

Also consider the request a 'thought experiment' whereby we defy internet truisms based upon 34+ years roleplaying experience and a belief that forums can produce a focussed discussion that explores beyond generic gaming dogma.

Thanks for typing

G

You are welcome.

What else do you need that hasn't already been mentioned? We could have easily said buff spells and spells without SR and that would have covered 80% of what needed to be said. I also assumed you had already figured that out by yourself. Am I being overly generous?

Again... without rancor or sarcasm... I hope you have a fun game.

Apologies.

I was slightly drunk and tired when I posted that before bed.

Please accept.

G

[CWheezy]

Dieben wrote:

Shatter and Mage Hand once ended the penultimate battle in a campaign before it started. Evil relic was held on a non magical chain and was light enough to chuck via mage hand

mage hand can't grab magic items

[boring7]

[citation needed]

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

boring7 wrote:

[citation needed]

A mage hand citation?

Mage Hand

School transmutation; Level bard 0, magus 0, sorcerer/wizard 0, summoner 0

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one non-magical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs.
Duration concentration
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION
You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Sanstree wrote:

Druid/wizard all day long......

There used to be a specific prestige class for that. Sadly it's 3.5 and was never officially converted.

[LazarX]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Sanstree wrote:

Druid/wizard all day long......

There used to be a specific prestige class for that. Sadly it's 3.5 and was never officially converted.

And it most likely will never be because it's probably closed content, and out of bounds.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

LazarX wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Sanstree wrote:

Druid/wizard all day long......

There used to be a specific prestige class for that. Sadly it's 3.5 and was never officially converted.

And it most likely will never be because it's probably closed content, and out of bounds.

It wouldn't be hard to make something better. Frankly the only thing in that class that made it worth it was the Wild shape progression stacking and spell progression.

The other mechanic had something to do with bouncing your spells off woodland creatures or some such nonsense. Its one of those features that you'll never use, but the above two make it worthwhile still. A wildshaping wizard! Hell Yea!

[boring7]

Didn't see that, kept looking at the spell description...huh.

Anyway, shatter is still pretty good if you get creative. The barbarian's axe may be magic, but his belt buckle probably isn't, see how well he fights when his pants fall down around his ankles. Same goes for sections of terrain, the ceiling, or the (non-magical) altar of evil the cleric was going to sacrifice a target on.

Stone call is another good one. Seems terrible because of the low damage, but the rough terrain part means your archer/ranged dudes get an extra round of barrage before the monster closes to melee. Sometimes 2.

[Matthew Downie]

CWheezy wrote:

Dieben wrote:

Evil relic was held on a non magical chain and was light enough to chuck via mage hand

mage hand can't grab magic items

But can it grab a non magical chain that is attached to an evil relic?

[sunbeam]

You can use Dispel Magic on items as well to make them non-magical long enough to destroy them.

Of course it may be attended and get the benefit of the wielder's saving throws, but items usually have pretty bad saves on their own.

[ElterAgo]

strayshift wrote:

... However at higher levels the class has a LOT more lower level spells going for it. ...

Actually, not so much. If you actually do the math, at the levels you are talking about, you won't have all that many more low level spells.

Not trying to talk you out of it. I think it can be a great character. I just don't want you to have unrealistic expectations. The greatest thing that the MT brings is the great breadth of possibilities.

So since your group already has a wizard and oracle. I would at least consider bringing something that has different spell lists. So maybe consider a druid instead of a cleric. I saw one of these not too long ago that advanced the druid to just get wild shape. Then he would wild shape to something that seemed harmless or could fly out of easy reach, while casting spells. Or at least pick some domains that have different spells that the oracle can get.

There isn't a lot you can do on the other side since the wizard has such a huge spell list and the other arcane casters with different lists (like bard, summoner, and witch) get most/much of their power from something other than casting spells. However, you should try to stay away from whatever the other wizard specializes in. If he is a fire blaster or necromancer, then stay away from those spells most of the time.

There are couple of teamwork feats that are excellent for casters. The 3 of you should really consider them.

There are that many attack spells that remain viable. Grease, create pit, glitterdust, pyrotechnics, web, shatter, and summon monster can continue to have some decent uses on occasion.

Other than that; the utility spells (detect secret doors), buff spells (protection from X), condition removal (remove Y), and illusions are always useful if you coordinate with the other casters and the rest of the group.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Matthew Downie wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Dieben wrote:

Evil relic was held on a non magical chain and was light enough to chuck via mage hand

mage hand can't grab magic items

But can it grab a non magical chain that is attached to an evil relic?

Yes.

[LazarX]

Mirror Image is also a spell that never loses utility against foes who don't have true seeing or the equivalent.

[strayshift]

Certainly I believe now there are enough viable spells to play through the 'pain levels'. The Druid is interesting because of the Summon Nature's Ally access as well as Summon Monster.

[Abraham spalding]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Sanstree wrote:

Druid/wizard all day long......

There used to be a specific prestige class for that. Sadly it's 3.5 and was never officially converted.

And it most likely will never be because it's probably closed content, and out of bounds.

It wouldn't be hard to make something better. Frankly the only thing in that class that made it worth it was the Wild shape progression stacking and spell progression.

The other mechanic had something to do with bouncing your spells off woodland creatures or some such nonsense. Its one of those features that you'll never use, but the above two make it worthwhile still. A wildshaping wizard! Hell Yea!

It also combined your animal companion and familiar and let it continue advancing.

[Te'Shen]

ElterAgo wrote:

strayshift wrote:

... However at higher levels the class has a LOT more lower level spells going for it. ...

Actually, not so much. If you actually do the math, at the levels you are talking about, you won't have all that many more low level spells. . . .

Agreed, ElterAgo.

I know you've already mentioned that you don't like witch, strayshift, but I see a human/orc/half-orc (possibly feral shifter) druid/scarred witch doctor working alright. You get to focus on wisdom and constitution, both save stats. Pick hexes that focus on buffing you or giving you abilities that you don't normally have and your animal focus does the same. I'd slap that on a dwarf if they could get in, but they can't (...at least, not with out MORE multiclassing... I don't think).

EDIT: I'd also say, if you're going wizard, go Sin Wizard. Accept no substitutes. I'd say Greed, but that's just because I could live without enchantment, though the loss of some of the defensive spells in the illusion school hurts a little. Sloth is also pretty nice, but I can see a role play issue.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Sanstree wrote:

Druid/wizard all day long......

There used to be a specific prestige class for that. Sadly it's 3.5 and was never officially converted.

And it most likely will never be because it's probably closed content, and out of bounds.

It wouldn't be hard to make something better. Frankly the only thing in that class that made it worth it was the Wild shape progression stacking and spell progression.

The other mechanic had something to do with bouncing your spells off woodland creatures or some such nonsense. Its one of those features that you'll never use, but the above two make it worthwhile still. A wildshaping wizard! Hell Yea!

It also combined your animal companion and familiar and let it continue advancing.

I forgot about that. Also useful.

[strayshift]

Am also reading the two necromancy related threads currently - although the Paladin may be problematic. A 'white necromancer' of Pharasma perhaps?

[Majuba]

strayshift wrote:

Am also reading the two necromancy related threads currently - although the Paladin may be problematic. A 'white necromancer' of Pharasma perhaps?

Nicely thematic. The "Life" Subschool is also quite interesting, but perhaps redundant with a Theurge.

Good luck and have fun!

[BadBird]

strayshift wrote:

The Druid is interesting because of the Summon Nature's Ally access as well as Summon Monster.

Come to think of it, the Druid is also interesting in that Shaping Focus will let up to 4 levels of multiclassing count towards Wildshape level... and 8 is a good level for Wildshape.