Which first and second level spells remain viable at higher levels?


Advice

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I’m going to be playing in a home-brew campaign from 1st up to somewhere between level 12 to 14 over a couple of years. No ‘exotic’ races like Aasimar or Drow (standard Core Rulebook races only) and also no early entry to prestige classes (which I don’t mind because I don’t allow these either as a DM).

Now, because of work and other commitments I’ll only get to about half the sessions, there are a party of six (Barbarian, Rogue, Paladin, Wizard and Oracle) and so I am looking to a develop a ‘supplemental’ caster and am looking to play a Human Cleric/Wizard Mystic Theurge.

Now I know a lot of people don’t like the class and that people will want to suggest races with early qualification, it ain’t gonna happen in this game. So save us all a little reading (and yourself some typing) if that is the point you want to make.

The query I have is this:

The Mystic Theurge falls behind single class casters from around level 4, and between levels 4 to about level 8 they are relying upon 1st and 2nd level spells only. They also tend to have lower save DC’s and worse spell penetration bonuses. This is where the hurt is for the class.

However at higher levels the class has a LOT more lower level spells going for it. So it seems to me the class stands or falls by the player’s ability to play lower level spells effectively in a higher level game (especially 1st and 2nd level spells).

Therefore I wish to ask players, what 1st and 2nd level spells (Arcane and Divine) remain viable for you at higher levels (8th plus) and why?

Many Thanks

G


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Not many. You'll feel especially sad since you have both a Wizard and an Oracle in the party, who together can do things better than you, and in the same turn.

But, Obscuring Mist, Create Pit, and many low level buffs all work okay. The problem you'll probably run into is the "Anything you can do, I can do better!" effect from the other full casters in your party.

Heroism is great, forever.


Liberating Command is always viable because it scales off your caster level.

Barkskin (if you can get it) is viable because it eventually grants +5 enhancement bonus to natural armor for the entire dungeon, especially if you extend it.

Heroism is great at any level. It is hard to get moral bonuses if there is not a bard in the group. Then Good Hope becomes king.

Unbreakable Heart suppresses a great many negative effects like confusion and is only useful at mid to high levels because it only lasts rounds per level.

Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestiments are great at all levels because they remove the need for someone to invest in enhancement bonuses.

Any spell with remove in its name is good at any level because you will end up needing to remove it at some point.

I know it is 4th level but restoration is always amazing because it removes crucial statuses.


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True Strike is really good.


Anticipate Peril is a great one at all levels.

edit: I should probably say "high levels" instead of "all levels", because at level 1 or 2 a +1 or +2 bonus to initiative isn't worth a spell slot. But at 10th level, using a 1st-level spell for +5 initiative is HUGE.


Web stays strong a surprisingly long time because it targets Reflex, by far the most common bad save.

A low level Summoned monster is still useful as a flank buddy for the party fighter and rogue, and for soaking up attacks.

Low level illusions can be viable at all levels; after all, there's no Will save as long as the target creature is not interacting with them.

Mirror Image.

Doug M.


Adhesive spittle from the ACG is delightfully good and will remain useful for a long time.
Never leave home without Energy Resistance.
Glitterdust to reveal invisible enemies.
False life if nothing better comes to mind.

Sovereign Court

Grease


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My list would include:
* Grease
* Endure Elements
* Protection from <Alignment>
* Fog Cloud
* Glitterdust
* Invisibility
* Mirror Image
* Protection from Elements
* Unseen Servant
* Keep Watch
* Silent Image
* Blood Money
* Touch of the Sea (water breathing)
* Resist Energy
* See Invisibility
* Blur
* Ant Haul
* Tattoo Potion


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Snowball (5d6 bypassing SR plus stagger, RTA)
Silent Image (Walls, boxes, fortifications, = total cover. Fake bridges over chasms...etc)
Infernal Healing
Magic Missile (noncorporeals, interrupt enemy spellcasting)
Grease
Rope Trick

Don't forget your cantrips too.
Guidance, Create Water, Detects, Read Magic, Prestidigitation...

I'd suggest considering the Intensified Spell/Heighten Spell feats. Both will add some oomph to your spells late game. And any feats/archetypes/items/etc. to boost your caster level.

On a side note have you thought about an archer build bard? About the same spell progression as MT but distinct from the full progression Arcane and Divine already in the group. Excellent support and can offer some fire support. Plus I love talky characters (personal preference). :)


Fairie fire
Entangle
Shillelagh

Silver Crusade

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Other people have already done arcane spells, above.

Some first and second level Divine spells that are useful at higher levels:

1st Level:

Bless - Best around 6th level, when iterative attacks come on line.

Remove Fear - Save your allies from fear.

Protection from Evil - Save your allies from mind control!

Shield of Faith - Scales with level. Useful to anyone who lacks a better Deflection bonus.

Divine Favor - Great for any cleric who whacks things, but probably not useful for you. Quickened & with the trait Fate's Favored this spell gives a +4 luck bonus to hit and damage, useable on the first round of combat.

Summon Monster I & II - Everyone likes a flank buddy. A foe may waste a turn killing it.

Truestrike - Useful for tricky stuff, such as a trip attempt.

2nd Level:

Defending Bone - get DR5/bludgeoning

Sound burst - Daze multiple foes with poor FORT saves.

Shield Other - Very effective healing method, but be careful not to die when the party gets hit by a big fireball.

Weapon of Awe - +2 sacred damage bonus stacks with everything.

Web Shelter - For sleeping

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Mystic Theurge in the later game finds it's strengths in utility and buffing.

Also keep in mind that while the Wizard will out wiz you, you'll have more clerical spell access than the Oracle in your party.


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Create Water & Purify Food and Drink = depended on GM' tho.

Detect Magic/ Stabilize / and Light.

Endure Elements = again depended on GM, but magic air condition/heater.

Goodberry, Longstrider, Obscuring mist.

Fog Cloud, Resist Energy, and Spider Climb.

Stone shape, and ah Diminish Plants = Like to use the Prune feature, for the gardening, lawns, Park type wood feel :)


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At all levels, your strength in the party will be buffing and clerical utility, as the oracle can't supply much of the latter.

Many good things have been mentioned here already, but in addition to the above I would argue that at low levels, you can also provide critical debuffs through True Strike with a combat maneuver. Make sure to use a longspear, so you can do it at reach, without suffering an AoO.

Many martial "bosses" will hate you for disarming them.


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A second level spell from the ACG, Stone Discus is marvellous, and gets better as your CL increases.


If you want damage dealing spells (albeit for close range), intensified burning hands or shocking grasp can deal a fair amount of damage for a second level spell slot if used at caster level 9-10.


Spectral hand lets you deliver touch spells of up to 4th level -- including heals, condition removals, and buffs, as well as debuffs. It may be more useful to you than Reach Spell, since you have lots of low-level spell slots but relatively few high-level slots.


Still no one else has mentioned Anticipate Peril? My wizard always prepared it multiple times, +5 initiative is huge!

Apocryphile wrote:
A second level spell from the ACG, Stone Discus is marvellous, and gets better as your CL increases.

You realize Stone Discus hits vs normal AC, right? At high levels, a full caster's BAB will be far behind a martial character, and chances are you don't have Point-Blank or Precise Shot, making hitting with this thing all but impossible. It's a decent complement to Scorching Ray vs monsters with high SR and low AC, but I think 9 times out of 10 the Scorching Ray will be better.

Dark Archive

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In my experience I have seen all of the following used successfully in the late game. I tried to omit those already mentioned by others.

Burning Disarm
Abundant Ammunition
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Gravity Bow
Long Arm
Lucky Number
Vanish

Acid Arrow
Create Treasure Map
Molten Orb
Ricochet Shot
Storm of Blades (try sacrificing magic weapons for fun times)

Fallback Strategy
Sure Casting

Delay Poison
Ghostbane Dirge
Grace
Lifepact
Shatter
Silence
Status
Suppress Charms and Compulsions


Shatter? Really?

Delay Poison? Really?

At higher levels Vanish's shorter duration becomes less of a big deal, sure.

Doug M.

Liberty's Edge

I really like 'Heightened Awareness' from the ACG, a 10 min/level buff that boosts your Perception and Knowledge checks, and can be dismissed for a +4 to your initiative.

Also, once you hit level 11, pick up the Divine Interference feat to use those low level slots to force enemy re-rolls!

Dark Archive

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Shatter? Really?

Delay Poison? Really?

At higher levels Vanish's shorter duration becomes less of a big deal, sure.

Doug M.

Shatter and Mage Hand once ended the penultimate battle in a campaign before it started. Evil relic was held on a non magical chain and was light enough to chuck via mage hand into the pit of relic destruction. Lucky rolls yes, but ever since then I never ignored this spell.

Delay Poison lets you save your higher level spell slots for things besides neutralize poison. At the higher levels, you'll generally have more than enough time to dispatch the great evil and cure it afterwards.


Cheers for these, many spells I knew but it's the use of the spells which is interesting and I feel more positive about the character being able to contribute in a variety of ways (I don't mind being 'weaker' than the other two casters as I won't always be at the sessions).

The Wizard will be a blaster so I am not so hung up on damage and more aiming on being a 'utility' caster and I suspect there will come a time when the other casters run low on spells/don't have the right one and I've got a fairly good chance of having a number of them left or a broader selection than the Oracle.

It seems though Druid may possibly be an interesting choice instead of cleric... decisions, decisions...

Again thanks

G


Druid can do a lot of interesting things. I can't comment on how well it would work for a mystic theurge though.

On topic- the pit spells are pretty useful, as long as the enemy isn't already flying. I think any other ideas I had have already been suggested.


If you're considering alternative classes, the witch makes a decent fist of being a combined arcane and divine caster without needing mystic theurge.


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half elf Bard/Evangelist cleric?

Bard and evangelist will give you inspire courage together. Bard has several low level spells that simply stay amazing at all levels -- saving finale, inspire gallantry literally fly into mind.

So while the other casters are controlling or healing you'll be that guy that when a 1 shows up and everyone groans and things, "It's over for that guy." You smile and say, "Do it again, I believe in you" and suddenly he passes the save.

The ability to cast in light armor for a bard with a shield meshes well with the cleric and the saves compliment each other too. The bard weapon proficiency list helps your cleric side have a better weapon selection as well.

Losing spontaneous casting for cure doesn't hurt so much since you can simply take that on the bard side if you want (I wouldn't -- that's what wands are for).

Honestly the luck domain with it's bit of luck ability would really help too and be thematically appropriate. However the leadership subdomain with its inspiring command would also help, allowing you to give an insight bonus on attack rolls, ac, skills and cmd for a round with a standard action -- no limits per day. The only down side is it's only 1 ally +1 per three cleric levels, so unlikely to expand beyond 2.

The barbarian, paladin and especially the rogue will appreciate the bonuses you offer too.

Half elf would also allow you to gain your favored class bonus in each class, and you have decent choices with half elf for both too -- extra performance rounds and on the cleric side a bit of a pick me up on your channel healing.


Aye I looked at the witch but I'm not a fan of it's spell selection and the two I've seen played were sorta one trick ponies - cackle/hex all the time.

At high levels the Mystic Theurge IS formidable - at 12th level (with the stats I have 18/15 Int/Wis at the start) the character would have 5th level spells (only 1 spell level behind a 'pure' caster) and would have 12(!)x1st & 2nd level spells, 9x3rd level, 7x4th level and 4x5th level as well as the ability to switch spells between classes if needed. Enormous flexibility and the caster levels would be 11/9 too. If well built/thought out that is eminently playable, I just need to be viable at the 'problem' levels 4-7.

A bard was previously mentioned and I've played a few in this group over the years so just wanted a change. But thank you for your comments.


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An Arcane Sorcerer / Heavens Oracle with high Charisma could use the Awesome Display revelation and Sorcerer metamagic stuff to do some crazy things with Color Spray; pile on the charisma and then go around bruising brains with deadly sparkles. Using a Dual Cursed Oracle also gives you an interesting power that doesn't care about your level.


I understand the position -- bard/clerics simply mesh well.

From the sound of it your GM isn't likely to approve of spell like ability shenanigans to get early access to mystic thuerge.

My only other offering would be to look at the wild blooded empyreal sorcerer to reduce mad.

Divine spells really aren't my forte.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Bard and evangelist will give you inspire courage together.

You would get a lot of rounds of performance, but it might be problematic that since they don't stack you would get relatively weak bonuses that will take forever to become a move action.


To build on badbird:

I like grabbing deaf as my weaker curse since silent spell on everything you cast with no adjustment is pretty nice, and it eliminates a huge range of nasty spells you don't want to be subject to as well.


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No one said Pilfering Hand?

Pilfering Hand. The look on the GM's face when you yoink away say...a holy symbol from the big bad cleric spamming negative energy channeling on the party is priceless.


Awesome Display would also make Loathsome Veil pretty mean...

If you're up for using age effects, you can grab some extra charisma off of being middle aged (or older, though it starts to hurt). It's probably a more efficient way of starting with a 20 charisma, and you're going to want a really primed casting stat to make DCs work with lower spells. A metamagic trait could make Persistent Color Spray into a level 2 spell with a level 2 DC - thanks to the Arcane Sorcerer Arcana - that requires a double save. You would need Spontaneous Metafocus to go around maneuvering the cone properly, but it's a nasty little coma-bomb for sure.


Don't forget the excellent combo of grease/liberating command! It helps at higher levels when liberating command alone isn't enough. Getting your allies out of grapples can be really important.

You'll get Freedom of Movement at some point as well, but it's good to have options.


Not sure if someone stated them but ablative armor and timely inspiration.


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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Delay Poison? Really?

Delay Poison is surprisingly good. It's only level 2 and it makes your target effectively immune to poison for hours. Unlike Neutralize Poison, you can cast it before going into danger with no action economy issues. Unlike Neutralize Poison, it doesn't fail completely if you roll low on a d20. You still suffer the poison effects when the spell wears off, but it's a lot better to pass out from Strength loss when you're back in your camp than it is when you're fighting a Purple Worm.


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Tangential:
strayshift wrote:
I’m going to be playing in a home-brew campaign from 1st up to somewhere between level 12 to 14 over a couple of years. No ‘exotic’ races like Aasimar or Drow (standard Core Rulebook races only). . .

That's fair.

strayshift wrote:
. . . and also no early entry to prestige classes (which I don’t mind because I don’t allow these either as a DM).

...ANNDDD you lost me.

strayshift wrote:
. . . Now I know a lot of people don’t like the class and that people will want to suggest races with early qualification, it ain’t gonna happen in this game. So save us all a little reading (and yourself some typing) if that is the point you want to make.

I like MT. It was made to make multiclassing casters viable. Unless you allow early-ish entry, it does not actually do this. Use just enough early entry on the Mystic(ally Ineffective) Theurge to make it a mystic theurge. Much like the k in knowledge, the ally ineffective is silent.

Human Wizard (Any) 3/(Separatist-Trickery) Cleric 1/MT X. You are one level behind on your wizard with a few cleric tricks. Alternately, take Cleric (Any) 3/(Conjuration-Teleporter or Divination-Scryer) Wizard 1/MT X. It works with any of the core races.

Taking good spells for 1st and 2nd level slots is something the other casters can do too, and do better, as Rynjin already pointed out.

There is a reason "Thou shalt not give up caster levels" is listed twice in Caelic's The 10 Commandments of Optimization.

Good luck with your game.

Silver Crusade

I agree with Te'Shen about the early entry Mystic Theurge.

Tangential Comment:
I originally thought early entry was super-cheesy and thus, forbidden when I GM outside PFS. However, upon close examination all early entry does to MT is make it decent. The traditional, non-early entry MT is very weak compared to any full caster. At high levels you run out of MT levels just as it catches up. True, by level 12 it starts to catch up, but levels 4-8 are painfully bad.
Joke at the expense of the Mystic Theurge wrote:

Q. What do you call a 7th level spellcaster who only casts first and second level spells?

A. A Mystic Theurge ...

An early entry MT is certainly not over-powered, but can at least keep up. Remember, the MT only gets spellcasting, so no channeling, no free arcane spells when you level up, no familiar, no bonus feats, truly awful BaB, etc. The MT must spend an inordinate amount of wealth on learning new arcane spells, so substandard gear.

Perhaps consider what the other players will play? If the rest of the group is playing Tier III-V characters, like Fighters, Rogues, and Paladins, then consider the traditional MT as a way of balancing out the martial/caster gap. If the rest of the group is playing Tier I-II characters, like Druids, Sorcerers, and Summoners, then consider the early entry MT.

Your group is Barbarian, Rogue, Paladin, Wizard and Oracle. That's three PCs of Tier III-V, and two PCs of Tier I-II. So in your case either version of the MT would work.


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Te'Shen wrote:
** spoiler omittedd **

Cheers, please feel free to ignore the original post in the thread.

Also consider the request a 'thought experiment' whereby we defy internet truisms based upon 34+ years roleplaying experience and a belief that forums can produce a focussed discussion that explores beyond generic gaming dogma.

Thanks for typing

G


Here's the thing about mystic theurge: You basically never run out of spells. That's the trade-off: You sacrifice the ability to hit hard to be able to hit often. In campaigns that require resource management, a MT can be a huge asset: You're one character with two (admittedly lower-level) characters' worth of spells.

Of course, if you run a 15-minute adventuring day, MT is a poor choice.


You'd be amazed what you can do with a "Light" spell... At level 5 or 6, I scared off several fighters by casting it first on their horse causing the horse to panic and them moving it to the big brawny fighter's great sword... Out of 7 foes, 3 of us (the rest were still sleeping) had to fight off 2 of them because of that doggon light spell.


Did you consider swaping around the classes you will be "Theuring"? The Wiz/Cleric already have spell variety, you could go for raw amount by selecting Sor/Oracle.


strayshift wrote:
Te'Shen wrote:
** spoiler omittedd **

Cheers, please feel free to ignore the original post in the thread.

Also consider the request a 'thought experiment' whereby we defy internet truisms based upon 34+ years roleplaying experience and a belief that forums can produce a focussed discussion that explores beyond generic gaming dogma.

Thanks for typing

G

You are welcome.

What else do you need that hasn't already been mentioned? We could have easily said buff spells and spells without SR and that would have covered 80% of what needed to be said. I also assumed you had already figured that out by yourself. Am I being overly generous?

Again... without rancor or sarcasm... I hope you have a fun game.


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tsuruki wrote:
Did you consider swaping around the classes you will be "Theuring"? The Wiz/Cleric already have spell variety, you could go for raw amount by selecting Sor/Oracle.

Without some sort of early entry, which the OP seems dead set against, both classes get 2nd level spells at 4th level. You would have to be Sorcerer 4/Oracle 4 before you could go into mystic theurge. I don't feel the charisma synergy is enough to cover the delay.

Others might disagree.


@ Haladir:
Haladir wrote:
Here's the thing about mystic theurge: You basically never run out of spells. That's the trade-off: You sacrifice the ability to hit hard to be able to hit often. In campaigns that require resource management, a MT can be a huge asset: You're one character with two (admittedly lower-level) characters' worth of spells. . . .

I disagree.

Action economy means you are still only getting out one spell around. Other classes will get to quicken sooner due to having higher slots that can be used with metamagic. The only way around this is a metamagic rod of quicken, which everybody has the same access to... except it will have much more punch with higher level spells. This is not taking into account spell synthesis, which is way down the road anyway.

Never running out of spells (that don't last as long or hit as hard due to lower caster level) might be fine if that was the case. However, MT's either have to invest in two different casting stats, granted one can be lower as he only needs the minimum to cast spells of the appropriate level, but a SAD straight caster can invest in one stat better than an MT can invest in two, so more bonus spells, and he's getting more spell slots as he goes.

Let's look at a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 3 vs. Wizard 9.

Wizard (effective 6) = 4/4/4/3 (assuming specialist)
Cleric (effective 6) = 4/4/4/3

vs.

Wizard = 4/5/5/4/3/2 (assuming specialist)

Omitting cantrips, that's 22 slots for the MT against 19 slots for the straight wizard. This is however, without bonus spells for higher attributes. I'm going to say that's not a big difference.

Since a SAD caster can invest in one attribute over others while a MT usually has to invest in two, it would be pretty easy to have +2 slots at first and second level where a MT might only have a +1 slot at first and second... the difference of a 22/23 over an 18/19 because you were able to tank wisdom or charisma.

Lets look at a SAD version... Sorcerer 4/Oracle 4/MT 4 vs. Sorcerer 12.

Sorcerer 8 = 6/6/5/3
Oracle 8 = 6/6/5/3

vs.

Sorcerer 12 = 6/6/6/6/5/3

Omitting cantrips, that's 28 slots for the MT against 26 slots for the straight sorcerer, though the MT will have more bonus spells in this case from being SAD.

With scribe scroll, you can have as many lower level "slots" as you need. If you combine it with something like a half elf wizard (or human with heritage) + fast study, you have access to any spell on your list with a minimal amount of prep, which translates into a scroll of any spell on your list. It's not even optimal and it makes a better utility caster. Add skill focus-UMD and pragmatic activator and you have a wizard who can UMD just about anything necessary.


Mystic Theurge is something I'd alter in my home games so they're easier to access without SLA shenanigans. However, I've heard stories from people who have actually played them and had fun. It depends a lot on your group, and what everyone else is playing. The level of optimization in the group itself is more important.

Sovereign Court

Divine favor, grease, Mount (Throw that mount into the dungeon to check for traps), reloading hands, Abundant Ammunition, Protection from evil/chaos/law/good etc...those ones I can think of from the top of my head.


Much like the others so far, good suggestions. I would make a slight alteration though...

Eltacolibre wrote:
. . . Mount (Throw that mount into the dungeon to check for traps). . . .

Rather than mount, I thought the somewhat common trap tester was an unseen servant dragging a 100 lb. log behind it.


Air Bubble: Oh it's like Water Breathing except WORTH IT and at first level.
Any flat bonus spell that no one else will have time to cast (like bless) and generally stacks.
Comprehend Languages: Can't count the number of times we were hemming and hawing because nobody happened to pick Gnomish and the particular NPC we were tracking was a gnome leaving diary entries everywhere.
Everything listed above:
Enlarge Person: Melee combatants almost always have a use for increased damage die weapons.

Any spell that needs multiple castings. One game I'm in has the party in the City of Brass, every single party member including sidekicks needs a daily dose of Endure Elements. That's a lotta 1st level spells.

That's just level 1.

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