Advise for Melee Wizard?

[Kysune]

Hello all,

I play PFS and I'm trying to come up with a character concept of a rich kid that's physically built but his father has enrolled him in an arcane school to be a "learned" individual and to make a nice living as most arcane wizards do. With this in mind, I'm willing to go with either Sorcerer (it's in his blood) or Wizard (he's learned it all in class).

The character is going to be pretty strong (probably 15) and decently hardy (probably 14 con). His casting stat will probably be a 12 or a 13 mostly like as he's able to catch on to some of it but that he's definitely not top of his class.

What are some thoughts on a Wizard school that works well with melee or a sorcerer bloodline that works great with melee? The character will sometimes revert to resolving conflicts with his weapon when he thinks that'll work better than his magic. Any thoughts would be great, I don't have anything set in stone but I'm not looking forward to using claws etc (so no dragon disciple), unless he beast shapes for a short period. Most of the time his melee will be an actual weapon (longsword, elven curved blade, greataxe, or something idk).

Can an arcane caster cast a spell with a 2handed arcane bond? (Having a greataxe as his arcane bond for example.) Or is it best for him to go with a 1handed arcane bond?

EDIT: I'm open for any race, stat, bloodline, arcane school, etc suggestions. I don't think a Magus is the right direction though as his father is urging him to be an arcane caster and to put away the ideals of physical work and brute strength.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Going to be honest a magus does exactly what you want. Even if he isn't full wizard. A sorceror never goes to school to learn....

As does Fighter 1/Scryer Wizard 1/ eldritch knight 10.

There is a new archetype for Arcanist that uses blades...its weak sauce but if you dont mind you could go that route.

Best for 1 handed....but a magus has no arcane bond needed. Also its better to bond rings as a disarmed weapon means your nerfed into the ground.

Remember learned individuals means Int based casting stat.

[Kysune]

I don't mind the disarmed issue. I plan on taking Combat Casting feat and Focused Mind trait for a total of +6 concentration since he'll be in the middle of combat often.

Magus really works towards that but from what I remember the magus spells are really limited and the character's father would have forced him to enroll in a wizard type academy (whether he be a sorcerer or wizard).

EDIT: This character concept is an "underdog" concept but looking to see what options are available to help him still excel at melee and casting even though his main stat (int or cha) would be low. Essentially he's an every day arcane student that wishes to climb to the top, not the top of the class kid that everything comes easy to him. Hope that helps explain.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Limited as in the are spells suited for combat as opposed to wish spells.

But is this father going to dictate everything this kid decides to learn? Perhaps he knows he will fall back to his weapon to solve problems that is why he learned these spells over enchantment style spells.

Also magus list is not so small anymore.

Edit: the very description of a magus fits your idea. If I can't out spell you I will physically beat you. If I can't out fight you I will out spell you. Finding that perfect blend to overcome your foe.

[kestral287]

Magus spells aren't huge but cover the bases pretty well. Unless you want Necromancy, they kind of suck at that barring Spell Blending.

If you don't like the Magus, you want EK. Ideally you want early-entry EK via Scryer Wizard/Arcanist with School Understanding (Scryer). Take Magical Knack and you can keep full Caster level.

The Blade Adept Arcanist is... really bad. It actually kind of gimps your weapon compared to a straight Arcanist so I would avoid it.

I'd use Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1/Wizard (Scryer) 1/EK 10 though. You need Int anyway, so using it to stay alive via the first-level Swashbuckler deeds seems wise. That'd also let you drop Str for Dex, to help you stay alive without breaking the theme.

That said, to say it again... what you're really wanting is a Magus. Especially if your casting stat is that low, because a Magus can (sort of) pull that off while a Wizard really can't get away with 13 Int.

[Zhayne]

Class is not concept, concept is not class. Characters aren't even aware that classes exist; they're purely metagame constructs.

Absolutely no reason your character and the world can't call him a wizard.

[feylund]

ive got something similar going in pfs right now, and yes you can cast with a two handed weapon as you can hold the weapon in one hand, but need two to attack with it and there is no action to change how you hold it... he mostly uses transmutations and buff spells to make up for the fact that he isnt a full fighter and has no spell dcs, just make sure to grab your headband of int if you want to cast higher level spell. arcane armor training is also a must. at early levels i spammed enlarge person with combat reflexes and my greatsword(now 3d6) now that hes a bit higher level hes using haste and the like to keep not only the party, but himself up with the enemies.

[avr]

If his magic is natural rather than that trained by the academy an eldritch scion magus could work. Cha-based casting probably means natural, untrained talent. He'd be a total failure as far as the academy was concerned other than presumably learning some spellcraft and knowledge (arcana).

If you want a pure spellcaster who might fight in melee an orc bloodline sorcerer isn't impossible. Delivering touch attack spells via actual touch attacks rather than spellstrike keeps your chance of connecting up there and full spellcasting does get you the good buffs faster. It's not great but it could work.

[Issac Daneil]

I had to continue voicing as everyone else; But Magus and Wizards go to the same Schools; they just take different classes.

Even then, their spell methodology is the same; read and write.
If your character didn't enjoy that exclusively, it could explain his improvisation of techniques like Spell Combat.

But, your resistance to Magus leads me to ask: Is it YOU who wouldn't like to play Magus, now that we've pointed out that thematically, Wizard and Magus is Computer student vs police tech?

[Kysune]

My resistance to Magus was I didn't know that they had the same spell lists, also magus may work TOO well for this concept. My concept is a student that's father has encouraged him to learn arcana and eventually go into the same business as his father. The out of game concept is a unique character that has a 'shock' value of "Did I just see an arcane caster just charge that orc and destroy him?" Only other thing with Magus is people expect them to get into melee and they typically excel quite well at it.

I may go with the Magus as it works well, but I may consider some other method as it can sometimes be more fun to be the underdog and climb to the top instead of starting out on the top to begin with. Hope no one takes that the wrong way, as I'm asking advise for a melee arcane caster. I'm not sure I want to make him "perfect" though via going Magus. Trying to develop an interesting underdog character in inspiration of one of Ander Wood's videos (from youtube).

[Zhayne]

Welcome to the downside of a class-based system. What you want to do simply doesn't work.

[mechaPoet]

Kysune wrote:

Can an arcane caster cast a spell with a 2handed arcane bond? (Having a greataxe as his arcane bond for example.) Or is it best for him to go with a 1handed arcane bond?

The Arcane Duelist is an archetype for the bard that can do this, actually. Not all of the bard abilities will be exactly what you're looking for, probably, but it might be worth considering? At fifth level, when it gets the arcane bond, you can also use your weapon for somatic components, so you could even go for a sword-and-board sort of thing. If the character resents being sent to wizard school, the Arcane Duelist gets some free anti-caster feats like Disruptive later on as well. Might be interesting to look into?

[kestral287]

Kysune wrote:

My resistance to Magus was I didn't know that they had the same spell lists, also magus may work TOO well for this concept. My concept is a student that's father has encouraged him to learn arcana and eventually go into the same business as his father. The out of game concept is a unique character that has a 'shock' value of "Did I just see an arcane caster just charge that orc and destroy him?" Only other thing with Magus is people expect them to get into melee and they typically excel quite well at it.

I may go with the Magus as it works well, but I may consider some other method as it can sometimes be more fun to be the underdog and climb to the top instead of starting out on the top to begin with. Hope no one takes that the wrong way, as I'm asking advise for a melee arcane caster. I'm not sure I want to make him "perfect" though via going Magus. Trying to develop an interesting underdog character in inspiration of one of Ander Wood's videos (from youtube).

Well, Magus doesn't have the same spell list. It's Wizard-lite. But the 'lite' covers most of the key notes (except, again, that Magi totally suck at Necromancy), and you can Spell Blending in critical spells if you feel the need.

Really, the Magus is an underdog, just in a different way. He doesn't get the full-out 9th-level casting of the Wizard And Friends. In a lot of ways, really, the Magus is weaker than the good ol' Eldritch Knight. Overall I don't think they are, but it's all in how you spin it.

The next best option I can figure is taking Sorcerer with one of the bloodlines that gives you a +Str bonus. But the listed stat spread really doesn't cater to the Sorcerer/Wizard/Arcanist. I don't mean this in the sense of "well they're not as good as they could be", I mean this in the sense of "a 9th level caster with a 13 in their casting stat becomes literally unplayable in relatively short order".

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

+1 for bard. No one expects a bard to even be useful. You'll knock the socks off of people.

Plus, better saves, light armor, better weapons, it's just superior.

Don't be fooled by early success. At first level, melee wizard isn't too bad.

You won't die until level 3-4, i'd guess. And then, you'll get worse and worse, and die more and more often. Money will be tied up in gear that doesn't really help you, and the final levels of melee wizard will just be incredibly frustrating, as you fail every fort save that comes your way.

[Suthainn]

Transmutation School Wizard with a 2 handed Arcane Bond reach weapon. You can melee from the safety of 10', buff yourself with spells (Enlarge especially will be amazing) 1/2 cost enchants for the weapon and your school ability giving an enhancement bonus to a stat will help you afford things as well.

[Kysune]

video: Woodwwad - How to Create a Character for D&D or Pathfinder

@Zhayne - saying something doesn't work I think is an overstatement. It can work, maybe just not as epic as other choices. This isn't World of Warcraft and characters aren't determined by their DPS, Stats, or epic Saves.

So far I'm thinking a Transmutation Wizard with Combat Casting feat, Focused Mind trait, and Still Spell metamagic to avoid Arcane Spell Failure and having to take his hand off a 2handed weapon. Weapon maybe a Greataxe, Quarterstaff, Heavy Flail, Elven Curved Blade, Earthbreaker, or Scythe. Guess it would depend on the race.

I'm sure there's feats, traits, and etc that would make this character be less subpar. That's the idea, that this magic user reverts to what he's confident and naturally good at when he gets frustrated or discouraged when casting spells.

Orc: You hold your tongue or I'll cut it out.
Student: You heard me, your kind smell worse than wretched goblins.
*Orc pulls his sword out*
*Student in reaction bares his Quarterstaff and begins casting a spell*
*Spell goes off but the Orc saves vs spell*
*Orc charges and swings at the student, hitting him hard*
*Student flys into a rage*
Father's voice of Student ringing in his head: "Study hard and you'll make a great wizard. Keep studying, do your homework, keep studying."
Student yells: Study this upside your head! *Cracks orc in the head*

It's not the most optimal concept or the best dps character ever. But I think it would make for an interesting character.

[kestral287]

There's a core difference between what people are saying your core problem is and what you're reading the core problem as.

The problem is not that it's suboptimal. In most respects, the EK is suboptimal compared to the Magus-- but it is an effective choice. At anything resembling melee combat, the Wizard is in turn suboptimal to the EK, to a much larger degree. The more realistic version of that scenario, once we're out of early levels, is this:

Quote:

Orc: You hold your tongue or I'll cut it out.

Student: You heard me, your kind smell worse than wretched goblins.
*Orc pulls his sword out*
*Student in reaction bares his Quarterstaff and begins casting a spell*
*Spell goes off but the Orc saves vs spell*
*Orc charges and swings at the student, hitting him hard*
*Student flys into a rage*
Father's voice of Student ringing in his head: "Study hard and you'll make a great wizard. Keep studying, do your homework, keep studying."
Student yells: Study this upside your head! *Swings at the orc and misses*
*Orc laughs and stabs him in the gut*
*Student swings again and hits the Orc, who stays upright*
*Orc beheads him and walks away to get his bruise looked at*

There are basic, mechanical issues at hand here:

• Your BAB is far below what appropriate-level encounters assume somebody trying to stab them has. You will miss, frequently. As levels increase you will miss far more often then you hit.
  
• Similarly, your damage output is going to be far below what appropriate encounters assume. When you do hit, it will not be nearly as damaging as what you might like.
  
• Your casting stat, at the original level, is too low to make any 9th level caster playable in its most basic form.

That said, you're literally describing an Eldritch Knight in the above scenario. Magus is a solid choice both conceptually and mechanically. A Bard (likely Arcane Duelist) is a good choice mechanically but you need to find a way to fit constant Perform checks into your character. If you can do that effectively it's also a good conceptual choice. Eldritch Knight is somewhat sub-par mechanically (much less so via early-entry, admittedly) but is conceptually what you're looking for to a T.

[Zwordsman]

I really like Blade Adept Arcanist, you get the special sword and wizar/sorc list. the sword levels up on caster level so you could go into Eldritch knight.

you'll still be pretty magicy since you won't be able to wear armour.

I think it kinda fits pretty well

[kestral287]

Zwordsman wrote:

I really like Blade Adept Arcanist, you get the special sword and wizar/sorc list. the sword levels up on caster level so you could go into Eldritch knight.

you'll still be pretty magicy since you won't be able to wear armour.

I think it kinda fits pretty well

On the flip side your sword caps at +5 and you can't push it higher like the Bladebound Magus can. I mean, the sword gets a bunch of other abilities and you could contend that they're worth another +5 at level 20... but I don't see it. To me it seems like you're trading class abilities for money.

[Zwordsman]

kestral287 wrote:

On the flip side your sword caps at +5 and you can't push it higher like the Bladebound Magus can. I mean, the sword gets a bunch of other abilities and you could contend that they're worth another +5 at level 20... but I don't see it. To me it seems like you're trading class abilities for money.

So very true! But, He's playing in PFS. He'll never get that high, but in PFS this'll save him a bucket of money. Sadly with this the Arcane Weapon exploit of arcanists only adds a little. The ability specifies level, I rewally wish it said Caster level, that would have made more sense.

Though in a home game you could probably ask a gm to let it work off caster level.. That ability and the elemental attacks oddly are the only exploits that do not list "arcanist level" in the wording and just say "level".
but i digress. It's not too bad in PFS, with the money it opens up. You do lose some abiliities such as adding thigns like agile etc on it, but for a gish? not too bad. It gives you a lot more money which you'll need for support items since your spliting your focus so much. But for a build like how the Original Poster sounds, he'll likely want more +# like he has.

[Mikael Sebag]

One of my favorite characters that I have ever played was a STR-focused wizard, so I sympathize with your desire to stick with your concept. Based on my own experiences running this concept through Carrion Crown, here's my advice. (NB: These experiences were in a home game, not PFS. Still, my input may yet relevant.)

I went with an abjurer wizard (counterspell subschool) and mostly focused on spells that didn't require saves, because my starting INT was a 14 or so, but STR was 18. A teleportation subschool conjurer may also prove useful, particularly for engaging/escaping melee (plus, it's easy to avoid saves in that school as well). Power Attack and Furious Focus were essential feats (for my concept, at least).

It was certainly a feat tax, but I went with a bastard sword, as I could switch between wielding it in one hand (while casting a spell with my free hand) to wielding it with two hands (when attacking).

With a poor BAB, going two-handed is the right way to go, as you probably won't even get high enough to see additional iterative attacks. There's also a good chance your attacks will miss, so be prepared to be in melee with nothing to show for it. You're also going to be squishy and it's your responsibility not to burden your party, so mind your hit points and play smart.

I agree with pretty much everyone above that it's a suboptimal choice (as you're already aware), but if you're okay with these risks, then venture forth, muscle-caster.

[Kysune]

To bring this back on track, I did mention that I play PFS. So level caps at 12 (11 being the real last level of play actually). I know things will be more difficult as levels rise, and no matter how much I try to spin it it's lagging behind a regular fighter.

Spells I'd realistically focus on are ones with no save, magic missle, stone call, etc that just can't be avoided by my typically low int save. I can add a +1 to int at 4th level and +2 int headband for a 16 total, that will cover learning spells for his entire PFS career.

Still spell effectively covers what an Eldritch Knight does with his swift action. Yet I may go into Eldritch Knight at some time because it is definitely nice and it doesn't restrict some spells like a Magus does.

Arcanist may be interesting but I don't own the book, and won't be buying it for a while so in PFS that means it's not an option for me unfortunately.

Bard is not the direction I want to take the character as that involves performances and art (music/dance/etc). I have a bard already and this character is more of a physically fit character that's forced to study, so he's naturally more inclined to physical work and stamina instead of being the center of attention or musically/artistically gifted.

So Eldritch Knight may be the way to go, I'd enter into it by normal means and not by the Divine Scryer shoe-in though. Any suggestions on Sorcerer or Wizard selections or race for this character?

[Sgt Spectre]

Kysune wrote:

video: Woodwwad - How to Create a Character for D&D or Pathfinder

@Zhayne - saying something doesn't work I think is an overstatement. It can work, maybe just not as epic as other choices. This isn't World of Warcraft and characters aren't determined by their DPS, Stats, or epic Saves.

So far I'm thinking a Transmutation Wizard with Combat Casting feat, Focused Mind trait, and Still Spell metamagic to avoid Arcane Spell Failure and having to take his hand off a 2handed weapon. Weapon maybe a Greataxe, Quarterstaff, Heavy Flail, Elven Curved Blade, Earthbreaker, or Scythe. Guess it would depend on the race.

I'm sure there's feats, traits, and etc that would make this character be less subpar. That's the idea, that this magic user reverts to what he's confident and naturally good at when he gets frustrated or discouraged when casting spells.

Orc: You hold your tongue or I'll cut it out.
Student: You heard me, your kind smell worse than wretched goblins.
*Orc pulls his sword out*
*Student in reaction bares his Quarterstaff and begins casting a spell*
*Spell goes off but the Orc saves vs spell*
*Orc charges and swings at the student, hitting him hard*
*Student flys into a rage*
Father's voice of Student ringing in his head: "Study hard and you'll make a great wizard. Keep studying, do your homework, keep studying."
Student yells: Study this upside your head! *Cracks orc in the head*

It's not the most optimal concept or the best dps character ever. But I think it would make for an interesting character.

LOL sounds cool, reminds me of an anime called Rune Soldier Louie actually. If your a decent role player, not a munchkin and are on good with your GM, I would probably try to create my own class for that then, and if you want you can post it and get opinions on it.

will definitely track this thread.

[Sgt Spectre]

Kysune wrote:

To bring this back on track, I did mention that I play PFS. So level caps at 12 (11 being the real last level of play actually). I know things will be more difficult as levels rise, and no matter how much I try to spin it it's lagging behind a regular fighter.

Spells I'd realistically focus on are ones with no save, magic missle, stone call, etc that just can't be avoided by my typically low int save. I can add a +1 to int at 4th level and +2 int headband for a 16 total, that will cover learning spells for his entire PFS career.

Still spell effectively covers what an Eldritch Knight does with his swift action. Yet I may go into Eldritch Knight at some time because it is definitely nice and it doesn't restrict some spells like a Magus does.

Arcanist may be interesting but I don't own the book, and won't be buying it for a while so in PFS that means it's not an option for me unfortunately.

Bard is not the direction I want to take the character as that involves performances and art (music/dance/etc). I have a bard already and this character is more of a physically fit character that's forced to study, so he's naturally more inclined to physical work and stamina instead of being the center of attention or musically/artistically gifted.

So Eldritch Knight may be the way to go, I'd enter into it by normal means and not by the Divine Scryer shoe-in though. Any suggestions on Sorcerer or Wizard selections or race for this character?

Ahhh playing in an official PFS game, hrmm well so much for creating a new class, dunno if any of the new classes in the advanced class book could help either?

*edit* Bloodrager maybe? Dunno haven't done more than a passing glance at the class as of yet.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

You could have a shot at this going straight wizard if you go transmuter. Ideally, you'd also have a bard in your party or other buffers. It's going to be difficult for you to really pull this off early, but there are some good forms that you can use and you can build towards the Transformation spell, which grants you BAB at your character level amongst other things. But then you lose your spellcasting ability for the duration. But that might work well. Buff beforehand, build a fighter type. It's not going to be easy, but it could be doable. Works better with Eldrich Knight, but still it can be done straight wizard. Alternatively forget transmutation school, go conjurer, teleportation subschool. Take the dimensional agility feat. You'll be able to swift action teleport and attack. That'd be nasty, otherwise just cast buffs and transmutation spells, but being able to conjurer flanking mates and throw that second dude attack you into a pit is not so bad.

[Feral]

Ignore the naysayers. A melee-dedicated wizard will do fine - especially in a limited environment like PFS. There's a broad range of viable between useless and typical optimization.

[Kysune]

The Teleportation subschool wizard that can haste himself then next round swift dimension door and flank double attack sounds really interesting and fun.

Also the transmutation idea is interesting but I'd only see the Transformation spell at 11th level which is at the very end of his career. So that spell may not be best to rely on but the Transmutation +1 stat bonuses could really help (especially since they can be moved around as needed after regular stat increases at 4th and 8th level).

EDIT: For the Teleporting Wizard - maybe 9 levels of wizard and 2 levels of fighter? (Going 7 wizard, 2 fighter, then 2 more wizard) depending if I wanted to go the Dimensional Dervish route, or I could just use the "Shift" supernatural ability to do almost the same thing or at least till Dimensional Dervish came online.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

It's true, but there may be other transmutation spells that can help. Elemental form should allow the use of weapons, though I am not sure how controversial that'd be in PFS. But the teleportation subschool power could be absurdly useful for you with the dimensional feats. Also being able to fly or go invisible on command will also be useful. This will be a pretty MAD build, but I think it can be done. You can even dump CHA and WIS pretty safely as a wizard in order to accommodate your needs in other stats.

But hey who cares too much about AC, when you'll be mirror imaged. It's going to take a lot of careful planning but I believe this is very viable, especially if you have any other buffing party members.

[keerawa]

I would recommend either Transmutation Wizard (Both for the stat bonuses, and because you'd have fun with the transformation school spells. Fight as a troglodyte at level 3!) or Eldritch Scrapper sorcerer for fun with Martial Flexibility.

[Matthew Downie]

Kysune wrote:

Spells I'd realistically focus on are ones with no save, magic missile, stone call, etc that just can't be avoided by my typically low int save.

Those can be useful, but it might be better to focus on Personal spells that aid your melee performance. Shield and Mirror Image for surviving with d6 hit dice and no armor, and the various spells that transmute you into monstrous creatures with strength bonuses.

Your spells per day will be a little lower than normal, so wands will be your friends.
Your damage isn't going to be as good as a regular melee attacker, but with a Wizard's flexibility out of combat you're unlikely to be a useless member of the party.

[FangDragon]

Maybe a brown fur transmuter arcanist would be worth considering.

Powerful Change:

At 3rd level, the brown-fur transmuter learns to harness the power of her magic to empower her transmutations. Whenever the brown-fur transmuter casts a transmutation spell using one of her arcanist spell slots, she can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir as a free action to bolster the spell. If the spell grants a bonus to an ability score, the bonus then increases by 2. If it grants a bonus to more than one ability score, only one of the ability scores gains this bonus. The brown-fur transmuter cannot expend more than 1 point from her arcane reservoir in this way.

This ability replaces the arcanist exploit gained at 3rd level.

[Kysune]

I drafted a build up hastily but let me know how it looks.

Teleportation Melee Wizard:

Class – Conjuration:Teleportation Wizard
Race – Human, Half-Elf, or Orc possibly?
Traits -
* Focused Mind
* Magical Knack
Arcane Bond –
* Frog or Ring/Amulet
Stats -
Str: 18 (with +2 added)
Dex: 14
Con: 15
Int: 13
Wis: 9
Cha: 7
1) Wizard 1: Bab +0 | Combat Casting (lvl 1), +1hp
2) Wizard 2: Bab +1 | +1hp
3) Wizard 3: Bab +1 | Still Spell (lvl 3), +1hp
4) Wizard 4: Bab +2 | +1 Con, , +1hp
5) Wizard 5: Bab +2 | Enlarge Spell (5), +1hp
6) Wizard 6: Bab +3 | , +1hp
7) Wizard 7: Bab +3 | Dimensional Agility (lvl 7), +1hp
8) Fighter 1: Bab +4 | +1 Int, +1hp
9) Fighter 2: Bab +5 | Dimensional Assault (lvl 9), +1hp
10) Wizard 8: Bab +6/+1 | +1hp
11) Wizard 9: Bab +6/+1 | Dimensional Dervish (lvl 11), +1hp

[Matthew Downie]

If you're going to 'cheat' and take levels of Fighter, why not do it early on and get all the weapon proficiencies?

[Kysune]

@Matthew - I definitely could take 1 level of Fighter early. I just had it quickly drafted to reach Dimension Door asap, then raise my BAB up to +6 in time to get Dimensional Dervish. Depending on race I could get bonus weapon proficiencies though so weapon proficiencies may not be a big deal.

Half-Orc - Heavy Flails
Half-Elf - free weapon prof with 1 weapon
Elf - Longsword

Also, I believe there's a few traits that give weapon proficiency. One from Varisia - Birthplace of Legends: Shoanti tattoo - grants proficiency with Earth Breaker.

Can't think of any others atm off the top of my head though.

EDIT: Only considered a couple fighter levels to get BAB to 6 for Dimensional Dervish. Maybe getting into Eldritch Knight would be a better choice though. Looks like I'd qualify at 7th level though, 5th wizard to cast 3rd level spells and 1 fighter or likewise for martial weapon proficiency. Not sure I want to do the cheater/cheese tactic of Scryer Wizard to shoe myself in to Eldritch Knight earlier than expected.

[MechE_]

Be aware that by RAW, the teleportation subschool ability does not qualify one for the dimensional agility feat, nor does it function with it. I know some DMs who allow it and others who do not, but if this is for PFS, expect some table variation. (It's therefore advisable to avoid, but that's your call to make.)

[Kysune]

MechE_ wrote:

Be aware that by RAW, the teleportation subschool ability does not qualify one for the dimensional agility feat, nor does it function with it. I know some DMs who allow it and others who do not, but if this is for PFS, expect some table variation. (It's therefore advisable to avoid, but that's your call to make.)

Teleportation Subschool was to use the poor man's "dimensional agility" ability called Shift. At 4th level spells I'll have Dimension Door and will qualify for Dimensional Agility. Both are separate but I'd have multiple uses per day with those two combined. Appreciate the warning though but it shouldn't be a problem here.

[MechE_]

Kysune wrote:

MechE_ wrote:

Be aware that by RAW, the teleportation subschool ability does not qualify one for the dimensional agility feat, nor does it function with it. I know some DMs who allow it and others who do not, but if this is for PFS, expect some table variation. (It's therefore advisable to avoid, but that's your call to make.)

Teleportation Subschool was to use the poor man's "dimensional agility" ability called Shift. At 4th level spells I'll have Dimension Door and will qualify for Dimensional Agility. Both are separate but I'd have multiple uses per day with those two combined. Appreciate the warning though but it shouldn't be a problem here.

Yeah, I just saw people talking about it up thread and wanted to make sure you were aware of it, though it seemed like you were. Also, for any passer-bys reading this thread, it's important to note before misinformation spreads further than this thread. I've seen a lot of places where people suggest taking the Dimensional Agility feat to use with the Shift ability and very few times does anyone point out that the RAW does not support this.

[Brad McDowell]

I've just started on a Half Orc Dervish Dance Bard in PFS. I went falchion just because, but I might have to grab a greataxe for the giggles.

[LazarX]

Zhayne wrote:

Class is not concept, concept is not class. Characters aren't even aware that classes exist; they're purely metagame constructs.

Yes but taking the position that they are totally divorced from the game world is a bit extreme.

[tanglang]

Kysune wrote:

My resistance to Magus was I didn't know that they had the same spell lists, also magus may work TOO well for this concept. My concept is a student that's father has encouraged him to learn arcana and eventually go into the same business as his father. The out of game concept is a unique character that has a 'shock' value of "Did I just see an arcane caster just charge that orc and destroy him?" Only other thing with Magus is people expect them to get into melee and they typically excel quite well at it.

I may go with the Magus as it works well, but I may consider some other method as it can sometimes be more fun to be the underdog and climb to the top instead of starting out on the top to begin with. Hope no one takes that the wrong way, as I'm asking advise for a melee arcane caster. I'm not sure I want to make him "perfect" though via going Magus. Trying to develop an interesting underdog character in inspiration of one of Ander Wood's videos (from youtube).

Well,the in charcter view for some NPC here would be that they look on your characters appearance, not his class. There will no little green interface box over your head that says "Kysune- Magus lvl xy".

The just see your robes and the white beard and that pointy hat.
And as Terry Pratchett told us: everyone knows that guys witch a beard and pointy hats are wizards!

That said, you do not want to look into magus, you do want to look specifially into Staff Magus. No Armor profiency for you and efficient Staff use. That means you look like a wizard,talk like a wizard and sling spells like a wizard ( Well, at least when you get your hands on staves with spells of levels 7+, staff magus can recharge them),
you basically ARE a withard.
BUT- you hit way harder than a wizard.

You will only have simple weapons as proficiencys, but that is easy to solve. Take the heirloom weapon trait and refluff it as the one weapon the captain of the university guard gave you because you always secretly trained with him and the guys and he got to became like a surrogate father for you,... or something like this.
Or be a human looking half orc ( dad always suspected your mom wasn`t that good a wife....) and get greataxe proficiency for free.

And with a few pearls of power lvl 1 you can most of the time play like wizard. Color spray , grease, haste the rest of party, etc.
Then surprise the BBEG with the rimed frostbite,enforcer combo or something. The one thing Magus exel at is going Nova at bad guys once or twice a day.
That leads us to: " Did the wizard guy with the hat and the wizard stick just grow to 10 feet, charged the bad guy and electrocuted him with a giant axe? WTF" or one of the many other ways to go over the top with a magus.
Looks pretty much like what you want. A bit like fantasy Harry dresden without the .38 special. Or a dual bachelor in spellsling/asskicking instead of a single master in wizardry ( hey, dad never cared for your schedule, just the title)as another way to view it.

( I,m planning for a elf Staff/Hexcrafter magus that´s probably the most efficient because of Rapier prof for elves and the high crit shocking grasps. He will use a stave from lvl 10 on as a shield and abuse one or two gloves of storing, but a glove of storing will surely also work for a giant axe and spelltrike use)

Give it a go, Magi are fun.

[tanglang]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Kysune wrote:

Spells I'd realistically focus on are ones with no save, magic missile, stone call, etc that just can't be avoided by my typically low int save.

Those can be useful, but it might be better to focus on Personal spells that aid your melee performance. Shield and Mirror Image for surviving with d6 hit dice and no armor, and the various spells that transmute you into monstrous creatures with strength bonuses.

Your spells per day will be a little lower than normal, so wands will be your friends.
Your damage isn't going to be as good as a regular melee attacker, but with a Wizard's flexibility out of combat you're unlikely to be a useless member of the party.

Good points, and since i still recommend the staff magus option:

Spell blending, the wand wielder arcana and a staff of vanish(cheap lvl 1) are great defence for a melee fighter.

[LazarX]

There is no point in making a Staff Magus, if you're not going to focus on the quarterstaff, It's worth doing so.

As for the two handed thing. A staff magus can wield a quarterstaff one handed, freeing him up for spell combat. As for wizards and two handed bonds. Since a wizard does not use his weapon while casting spells, simply holding it in one hand will satisfy the casting requirement.

[CuttinCurt]

I have a small suggestion, if your willing to expand your mind a tad.

First off, I am not going to even comment on optimal vs. sub-optimal.
Second, I have played around with the Transmutation side of the wizard and love it.

If you are not so concerned with fighting with human arms or even with a weapon, and take this wizard to the polymorph level, you could find some pretty nice situations where you kick major butt.

Now, this is more for the 5th-11th level area, and my build was based in the Kingmaker adventure path with a tiger clan barbarian 1/ wizard 10, but it could work without ever taking that melee class level.

Transform yourself in to what ever you need to win a fight. that is all this is. Concentrate on the magical beast, regular beasts, and monstrous humanoid spells (Monstrous physique and Beast Shape) as this seems to fit this character concept better (I am figuring that your low int will mean your not the best wizard in the world and don't know a ton of things about other planes and such.)

These spells are also the lowest level spells of this polymorphing concept (form of the dragon elemental body and giant form are way to high for a wizard starting with a 12-13int)

There are draw backs to this build as the monstrous physique spells require a piece of the form you want to turn in to, and you have to have knowledge of the beasts you want to turn in to with Beast Shape. But these are all things gathered and learned through your first 5 levels of wizard/sorcerer (I prefer wizard in this build as you will need spells that will help you learn and locate beasts you want to become, as well as spells for buffing yourself, and upping that low bab you will have.

As most of these spells up your strength considerably, the -3 bab you have @ 6th level vs a fighter/barbarian type is overcome. With Heroism and spells of that nature, combining morale/enhancement bonuses with your size bonus for str/dex/con will be very important.

But the best part of this is, with the pfs point buy system, you should go ahead and do the 14int 14con 14dex and 15str with an 8chr. This sets you up perfectly for this concept, giving you at 12th level, a 16int and 16str base, more than enough for a 12th level caster and gives you access to your highest level spells @ 11th (yes, 4th and 8th level attribute points go into int). this is the unfortunate byproduct of this build, especially if you want to go high strength without magical enhancement. Also, having a 10wis is overcome with your high will saves and unless I read wrong, you were really not to worried about chr.

The only choice you have to make for your character concept is (Do I want to fight with my battleaxe or with claws/tentacles/tails/wings/bites/talons or horns?)

One spell gives you +str +con -dex +natural armor +1 or more special attacks (gore, trample, constrict, grapple etc...) darkvision, fly, lowlightvision, swim, climb etc...

I know I wrote a lot, but it is a concept that falls into your character purview albeit by a different method of fighting.

what you do from 1st to 5th is still up to you, but once you hit 5th, you will have access to these abilities through those spells.

[Ray-gun]

It sounds like a viable concept. The transmuter wizard who shape changes into something then fights could work well. Especially going Eldritch knight for more bab and hit points.

Surprisingly I have not seen a couple of the sorcerer options mentioned. Orc bloodline is made for combat, use the community minded trait to extend your 1st level power, bonus str.

Another option is dragon disciple, dragon sorc gives claws and natural armor boosts. Then when you actually get into the prestige class you get more stat boosts and still mostly advance your casting and bloodline

All of these could be workable