Drow came from Elves... could it go the other way?

[Ar'ruum]

In Golarion Mythos, the elves originated from a different planet and come to Golarion, prior to Earthfall. With the impeding cataclysm, they opted to return home except for a stubborn few who thought that going underground would provide them safety. While underground the cataclysm shook the foundations of Golarion so much so that an ancient evil was awoken (Rovagug). Rovagug's spreading awareness combined with the Darkland's strange radiations, touched the elves and corrupted/transformed them into the dark elves we know today as drow.

Here's my question, it appears as though the elven physical nature is extremely reactive to their environment. So here's my question, apparently the overwhelmingly malevolent mind of Rovugug the Destroyer was so effecting to those elves that it saturated their very core, which altered their psyche, demeanor, and physical appearance. It would then seem likely or possible that a likewise benevolent, charitable, ultimately good mind touching the drow could have the same effect.

Without speculating on the mindset of the elves who descended into the Caves of the Craven ... whether they were pliant to the evil whims of Rovugug, perhaps susceptible to the transformation because of their stubbornness to stay against the wishes of their kind... I'd be curious to hear/see a story or thoughts on whether they could be turned back...

[LazarX]

By canon.... it's never happened, and that's all that's been said on the subject.

Keep in mind that there are plenty of extremely evil elves that have never transformed. It apparantly takes a special unknown combination of circumstance for that to happen.

Drow transform because of an unknown combination of alignment effects and exposure to a certain Underdark radiation. There isn't an opposite counterpart to the latter component.

Keep also in mind that this was originally written for the 3.5 version of Golarion, and hasn't really been touched that much in the Pathfinder incarnation.

[Orfamay Quest]

Ar'ruum wrote:

Here's my question, it appears as though the elven physical nature is extremely reactive to their environment. So here's my question, apparently the overwhelmingly malevolent mind of Rovugug the Destroyer was so effecting to those elves that it saturated their very core, which altered their psyche, demeanor, and physical appearance. It would then seem likely or possible that a likewise benevolent, charitable, ultimately good mind touching the drow could have the same effect.

Let me get this straight. You're asking if a piece of fiction could have been written differently?

[justaworm]

The Second Darkness material freely states that Drow are evil to the core, not just evil, but eeeevil. There are not any known non-evil drow - it just doesn't happen. Any drow that shows any propensity for compassion is swiftly dealt with, many times by transforming them into a drider.

It could be assumed that a being of equal power, especially one in direct opposition to Rovagug (like Sarenrae) could change one back if they proved themselves worthy.

That being said, it is the GM's world to do whatever. So a campaign centered around a drow being "awakened" back to goodness and seeking to be transformed back into a elf sounds kind of interesting.

[Zhayne]

Assuming you're the GM ...

It's your world and your game, dude. Screw canon and do what you want.

[Mykrox43]

I had an idea once for an adventure where the PC's play Drow characters.

The Drider's lair has been the final stop for many an errant Drow male.

But in truth,the Drider doesn't kill them...he recruits them.

This is based on the 3.5 ed version. Outside the Underdark,the influence wanes and loses it's hold.

A Drow who changes back would do so gradually. The journey to the surface could be filled with discovery. A religious book dropped by a cleric of a good deity. It speaks of mercy and kindness.

The journey up is a metaphor from darkness to light etc. In R.A. Salvatore's 'Dark Elf Trilogy' Drizzt's evil possesions lose their evil power in the sunlight.

Maybe he becomes like a prophet and returns to free more of his brethren from bondage later. Just some ideas. Hope this helps. Happy Gaming,M

[YogoZuno]

Just FYI, the underdark radiation is NOT a required component for corruption of elf to drow, at least at the time of transformation. The two documented examples we have of elves changing to drow were featured in A Second Darkness Part 5 (A Memory of Darkness), and they both happened on the surface (admittedly, in the middle of a demon-corrupted area, but not in the the underdark. The characters involved MAY have visited the underdark previously, but this isn't spelled out. The change seems to be more linked with intent - from the section on The Dark Fate.

Quote:

there are plenty of evil elves in the world already, and almost all of them aren’t at risk of the Dark Fate—it takes something more than evil to trigger such a drastic change.

So, for the opposite to happen (if it were indeed possible) it would seem to take some kind of act of utter good (law? chaos?), not just or even the environment.

[darkwarriorkarg]

Polymorph any object :-)

[ElyasRavenwood]

Aruum, this would ultimately be up to your GM.

I think it is a cool idea. I have been toying around with the idea of having an elf character Mechanically an elf, with a back ground of being a Drow, and in a moment of "kindness and mercy" he spontaneously changed from a Drow to an elf, and now has to find his way on the surface in an elven society he is unfamiliar with.

So If someone wanted to play an elf, who had transformed from being a Drow.....(not a good drow with a pair of scimitars) I might just want to run with that idea.

I Like the idea of redemption.

I have seen this once before in Raymond Fiest's books on Medkima. There was an example of a dark elf turning into a light elf.

[Koujow]

Your title just gave me an awesome idea for a future game. Drow represent a major evil force in the world. Elves are a splinter faction from the Drow who seek to fight for good. These "Light Drow" must fight to prove their innocence and are hated by others for their connection to their spider/demon loving brethren.

As for the OP, sorry, nothing more to add beyond what was already stated. I just wanted to share the idea.

[Lifat]

Well... For the OP... Of course a piece of lore could be written about how a benevolent force turns back some drow into normal elves again. Hell, the lore could be changed so that elves were originally drow that met a benevolent force that turned them into elves... If you are the GM then it is your world and you should feel free to change stuff as you see fit. I would however at the very least mention this change to your group as it is a significant change from the standard golarion lore.

[boring7]

There is a racial spell that turns Drow into regular elves (temporarily) for infiltration purposes. I think it's called "ancestral regression" or summat. Also, the elves were born on Golarion, and their "holiday" on planet Not-Venus during the cataclysm was an escape, not a return.

As for Drow going good...eh. Because everybody played a Driz'zt clone (even if we never did) once the mere SUGGESTION of playing a Good Drow is unacceptably BadWrongFun which deserves scorn and horsewhippings.

I'm less inclined to buy the "born good" story, but I likewise have difficulty with equating skin color to being morally compromised and needing to be put in chains and made to pick cottonHEYOOOOO! But this gets into the whole Ethical Calculus thing of a numeric alignment system of objective morality and no, we don't need to start THAT thread again.

The OTHER thing about good vs. evil is in the STORIES you can always corrupt good but you can never "anti-corrupt" evil. Good magician uses demonic power source? Evil magic happens. Evil magician uses angelic power source? Evil magic happens. It's an interesting principle of fantasy fiction, sin can stain a good thing bad, but virtue cannot stain a bad thing good.

Anyways, whatever plot item you're going with, turning a dark elf into a surface elf is possible, you can turn a manticore into a shrew. But if you want to talk evolution, it is more likely that a tribe of dark elves that was "forcibly evolved" in a "good" direction would be something else entirely; something new. Perhaps the gray elves of the Mordant spire, or perhaps they would grow wings and learn to fly like the Avariel.

But you'd have to make it up, because from the perspective of designers RPG settings rarely, if ever, need more good guy races. They need endless hordes of evil monsters for hobo players to murder.

[MMCJawa]

Officially, good (or more likely neutral) Drow can exist, but they still remain Drow. Because having Drow change race based on alignment has some...bad connotations.

[William Dymock-Johnson]

The elves in my homebrew game are the degenerate outcasts of the noble drow race. They were the mostly agrian caste and part of the old Drow Empires Bread Basket. Characters were often suprised to learn that outside their little corner it was a drow world after all.

It's a world of darkness, a world of snakes
It's a world of hatred and enslaved lesser races
It's a much darker tale, your quest for good will fail.
It's a drow world after all

[boring7]

William Dymock-Johnson wrote:

The elves in my homebrew game are the degenerate outcasts of the noble drow race. They were the mostly agrian caste and part of the old Drow Empires Bread Basket. Characters were often suprised to learn that outside their little corner it was a drow world after all.

It's a world of darkness, a world of snakes
It's a world of hatred and enslaved lesser races
It's a much darker tale, your quest for good will fail.
It's a drow world after all

Very nice.

[The Daring Dragoon]

Zhayne wrote:

Assuming you're the GM ...

It's your world and your game, dude. Screw canon and do what you want.

THIS

[Mystic_Snowfang]

I've been wondering with certain events that could happen in WoTR, if there could end up with enclaves of CN drow...

[KenderKin]

Yes. In 2nd edition the drow were with Loth, but some males and females followed other deities. Some resulting in some changes in alignment and outlook. The complete.drow handbook, I think was the title....

Wiki includes a section on drow deities if your interested.....

[LazarX]

Mykrox43 wrote:

The journey up is a metaphor from darkness to light etc. In R.A. Salvatore's 'Dark Elf Trilogy' Drizzt's evil possesions lose their evil power in the sunlight.

Salvatore did not invent that particular bit.

That's actually from the original Fiend Folio bestiary description of Drow. It was a way to equip drow with very powerful weapons that would not survive long in the hands of adventurers that seized them. The weapons power depended on frequent exposure to the exotic radiations of the drow homeland. In addition the weapons themselves would start an irreversible corrosion process if they were exposed to sunlight.

[Mykrox43]

The idea of exposure gives transformation or reversion some credibility.

Monster movies in the 50's played on this theme.But the question is about choice.

Does our dark elf become a light elf through exposure or is it deliberate?Does the change take place because of the distance from the Underdark?

It gives a GM a variety of directions to take this idea.

Intro..."Dr. Drizzt 'Bruce' Banner...Drow scientist trying to tap into the inherent good in all dark elves..." Cue cheesy violin music and scene...

[Pendagast]

I had an Elf master Chymist who's alter ego was a Drow…made for some excellent fun.

[YogoZuno]

Wow, what a great idea - guess I'll be building an Elven Psychic with the Discipline of Aberration for the Occult Guide playtest :)

[LazarX]

This question was put to Mr. Jacobs recently and his answer was that redeemed Drow remain drow... dark skin and all.

I personally have major issues with the idea of redeemed drow changing color, and I had even more issues with the idea of evil elves becoming dark skinned. I'm frankly, not surprised that the Drow of AD+D were a British creation, the whole idea quite frankly reeks of crypto-racism.

i will never use Drow in my home campaigns for this reason.

[Pendagast]

LazarX wrote:

This question was put to Mr. Jacobs recently and his answer was that redeemed Drow remain drow... dark skin and all.

I personally have major issues with the idea of redeemed drow changing color, and I had even more issues with the idea of evil elves becoming dark skinned. I'm frankly, not surprised that the Drow of AD+D were a British creation, the whole idea quite frankly reeks of crypto-racism.

i will never use Drow in my home campaigns for this reason.

REALLY?

breaking if off a bit much?

Elves have always varied by appearance based on their surroundings, even more so in Golarion than most.

IF elves in the deep forest are green or brown skinned and darker hair colors, and the ones who live in pale towers are pale skinned and fair haired…would the ones who live underground in the dark, not be black/blue skinned?

additionally MOST mortal creatures look like physical representation of their god….following the Jew/Christian/Muslim theory of creation (man made in Gods image)…ad Lolth, is a rather dastardly looking dark skinned demonic elfish looking lass.
However, she is, actually, NOT a drow…she's a black skinned spider demon of elvish appearance.
Would you expect Demons and their cult following to look pretty and fair?
would you expect clever underground dwellers to dress in white and glow where ever they hide?

None of that is remotely attached to Humans of African or related descent.

The mark of cain, which many white supremacist christians claimed was "black skin", referring to black people, and therefore their justification for why white people were better than black people, is baseless, because ALL the decedents of Cain died in the Great Flood, and so there for, no living mortal knows what the mark of cain looked like, and (IF you believe in the bible) ALL the races of man are descended from Seth and none are related to Cain.
So…IRL there are no "cursed" black humans…. only Black men and those of us who are Melanin Challenged.

[Odraude]

Actually, if real-life creatures are any sign, elves grown underground would more than likely be pallid with nigh transparent skin, and blind. Which suits me fine.

But in my games, drow play a different role that is a bit more akin to Eberron's version than the standard. YMMV.