odd charater help needed

[OverLordXIII]

Got a game coming up were we are playing an all dwarf party and I elected to play the skill type character. So I was looking at making a dwarf investigator(empiricist). Its a 20point buy starting a 3rd lvl and going to 13th lvl. I am hoping to make him good with skill and still able to do combat.
So far I have thought for stats.

Stats:
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12 (10+2)
Int 16
Wis 10 (8+2)
Cha 8 (10-2)

Feats:
I am kind of clueless on what feats I should take. I have been thinking about taking Med armor prof at 1st lvl to give myself a better ac with my low dex.

Talents:
I though about taking the mutagen talent at 3rd lvl but not sure if I should. It would boost my Str which would be nice but would the loss of Int affect my studied combat rounds when I get it at 4th?

At 5th would be Quick study so I can study, move, and attack.

At 7th Amazing Inspiration or Sickening Offensive

At 9th Combat Inspiration

I will keep my options open except for race and class those have to stay.

[Bart Vervaet]

If you're looking to be good at skills, Breadth of Experience" (advanced player's guide I think) could be a good option. With an INT of 16 it would help a lot with all knowledge checks you come across

[OverLordXIII]

The feat seems nice but with my inspiration I already add a d6 to my knowledge rolls and with keen recollection I can use all knowledge checks untrained.

[Skerek]

OverLordXIII wrote:

I have been thinking about taking Med armor prof at 1st lvl to give myself a better ac with my low dex.

Might be better off dipping your first level in Fighter if you're wanting better armor.

You're going to get medium/heavy armor, shield and more weapon proficiencies, a bonus feat and an improved fort save at the cost of 4 skill points and delaying your progression in Investigator by 1 level.

If you end up getting the Mutagen talent you might as well go the Mutation Warrior for the dip.

[shroudb]

i really like the investigator.

but i really hate that until level 3/4 he is basically useless in combat.

Sure, you have like 4 inspirations with your stats, but... eh that's all.

I was thinking of making an all out skill monkey myself, and the best i've found so far, for early levels, is maybe going:

mindchemist1->empirisist1->mindchemist2->empirisist the rest.

if you also pick up the trait that lets you use diplomacy for affecting npcs (you get gather also from empirisist) and bluff for lying (but not feint in combat) by using your int instead of your cha. and you pick up the investigator talent that let's you roll inspiration on knowledges without spending it and without you being trained on them.

that means that by lvl5, you have:
2xint+1d6+1d20 on all knowledges with 0 skill points spent.
disable, perception, sense motive, umd, diplomacy, bluff, spellcraft, lingustics all based on INT.
switch str/dex, so you keep high dex.
then also pick acro and stealth (since you have good dex also)

and you will still have sp remaining.

you will also have both aoe damage from splash weapons doing +int and aoe damage from bombs for early levels.

free cognitogen
alchemist discovery

and if you pick up as feats finesse, extra discovery and extra talent, you will have:

dex to attack, more easy to apply mutagen to dex than to str
2 alchemist discoveries (could maybe get something like tanglefoot bombs for a bit of control and healing bombs for a bit of splash healing, or go for stinky bomb, etc)
2 investigator talents (1 the +1d6 on knowledges, +1 your pick)

[Gwen Smith]

OverLordXIII wrote:

Its a 20point buy starting a 3rd lvl and going to 13th lvl. I am hoping to make him good with skill and still able to do combat.

So far I have thought for stats.

Stats:
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12 (10+2)
Int 16
Wis 10 (8+2)
Cha 8 (10-2)

Your wisdom should be 12, shouldn't it? (10+2, not 8+2)

OverLordXIII wrote:

Feats:

I am kind of clueless on what feats I should take. I have been thinking about taking Med armor prof at 1st lvl to give myself a better ac with my low dex.

Unless you are opposed to multiclassing, I would take your first level class as one that gets medium armor as a class feature. It gives you a lot more benefit than just medium armor proficiency:

Fighter: all martial weapons, BAB 1, free bonus feat. If you want to deal damage in combat, try Power Attack as your bonus feat.

Barbarian: all martial weapons, BAB 1, fast movement, and rage as a "last resort" option. And a d12 for your first hit die.

Cleric: domain powers and access to the divine spell list. Since you won't be doing much UMD with an 8 charisma, having a spell list will help when you find wands and scrolls.

Warpriest: similar to cleric, but with blessings instead of domain powers.

Ranger: all martial weapons, BAB 1, favored enemy. Side benefits of lots of skill points compared to the other martial classes and the ability to use some wands.

Bloodrager: all martial weapons, BAB 1, rage, bloodline power when raging, fast movement, plus the ability to use some wands.

A dip into any of those classes will get you medium armor proficiency and save your 1st level feat for something you really want. Some you might consider:
Breadth of Experience to do any knowledge or craft or profession check untrained (I think this is a killer feat for an Investigator)
Iron Hide to boost your AC

[Chess Pwn]

He's saying that his wis is a 10 because he purchased an 8 and racial mod of 2 onto it. same with his charisma, it was a ten before racial mods.

[OverLordXIII]

@ shroudb I like the idea but as you said the investigator dosen't really come into combat till lvl 3/4 so taking those 2 lvls in alchemist will slow that even more.

@ Gwen Smith They only reason I brought up Med Armor Prof is b/c of my low Dex. If I dip into a combat class I will be losing out on skill which is the role I am filling. I am just trying to make my character useful in combat and be the parties skill character. I have been debating about maybe making the character Dex based instead of Str, but then I would have to get agile and the inspiration abilities on my weapon which will cost a lot and come later in the game.

[Chess Pwn]

a note about skill loss, if you take a level of ranger you're still getting 6+int mod skills. Inquisitor medium armor and 6+int mod. Hunter is medium armor and 6+int skills as well as the slayer. So there are various options on multiclassing and keeping your skill points high. And some of them offer some neat things at level 1. Slayer or Ranger might be the best with a BAB that the others are lacking.

[shroudb]

OverLordXIII wrote:

@ shroudb I like the idea but as you said the investigator dosen't really come into combat till lvl 3/4 so taking those 2 lvls in alchemist will slow that even more.

@ Gwen Smith They only reason I brought up Med Armor Prof is b/c of my low Dex. If I dip into a combat class I will be losing out on skill which is the role I am filling. I am just trying to make my character useful in combat and be the parties skill character. I have been debating about maybe making the character Dex based instead of Str, but then I would have to get agile and the inspiration abilities on my weapon which will cost a lot and come later in the game.

if you go dex based.

a single level dip in inspired blade will give you lvl1 deeds, panache= your int+1(from cha).
weapon focus rapier, finesse free

and then if you just buy as your first level feat fencing grace, then

at lvl1 you will have dex to attack, dex to damage, 1bab, deeds, 4panache, 4+int skills, sorta-like inpiration from derring-do. with just a 16dex, you will have like +5 attack, 1d6+3 damage, crit at 18-20x2. add in opportune parry for counterattacks, that can mean up to 2attacks/round.

this alone can keep you up till investigator levels up, and starts getting discoveries and alchemy

to add to that, mutagen and stuff, all will make your already existing abilities from inspired blade better.

and the only thing you sacrifice is 2skill points (and 1lvl progression)

[Avoron]

I'd actually like to suggest the complete opposite of dex-based character. If you dip first level into fighter, you get 4 less skill points at level 1, but you get to use full plate, a tower shield, and a dwarven waraxe. This means you get an AC of 24 or more at level 3, and an average of 22 hit points. You get to deal 1d10+3 damage, and your movement isn't affected at all because you're a dwarf. You don't have to take Medium Armor Proficiency, and you get a bonus combat feat that you can spend on Shield Focus to boost your AC even more or on whatever other combat feat you want, leaving your 2 normal feats open for Skill Focus on your favorite skill, Ironhide/Improved Natural Armor for even higher AC, or whatever else you feel like getting. This works with a Str or Con mutagen, or none at all.

The main downside to this strategy is that your armor check penalty is absolutely horrible. If you intend to be using physical skills a lot, this won't work. Mental skills, however, will be fine. Disable Device is Intelligence based for you, not Dexterity based, so depending on your GM's interpretation of the armor check penalty rules, you might still be able to use that without a penalty. If your GM allows that, and you get a trait, and you can worship Irori, the Wisdom in the Flesh trait lets you pick your favorite physical skill and switch that to being Wisdom based, avoiding penalty for that as well.

Of course, chances are this idea won't work at all for what you have in mind. It was just a thought I had.

[OverLordXIII]

@Shroudb - That is a very interesting idea. I have to ask how you would place the stats though. Right now I have a negative mod in Cha which even though I am adding Int also I would be adding Cha too so that would only put me at 2 panache. Would I try and get a keen weapon to crit more and use that panache or just forget it and got for inspired. Also for a Dex build what would you think of a Twf build to get the most out of studied combat?

@Avoron - I like the idea and it would really help out for the combat but I know my Gm and I would still have that acp and since I am filling that rogue skill and knowledge slot that heavy armor acp would hurt. Now I might be able to do it with mithral med armor.

[shroudb]

OverLordXIII wrote:

@Shroudb - That is a very interesting idea. I have to ask how you would place the stats though. Right now I have a negative mod in Cha which even though I am adding Int also I would be adding Cha too so that would only put me at 2 panache. Would I try and get a keen weapon to crit more and use that panache or just forget it and got for inspired. Also for a Dex build what would you think of a Twf build to get the most out of studied combat?

@Avoron - I like the idea and it would really help out for the combat but I know my Gm and I would still have that acp and since I am filling that rogue skill and knowledge slot that heavy armor acp would hurt. Now I might be able to do it with mithral med armor.

A negative cha will still result in 1 panache for inspired blade.

It is: int modifier (min1) + cha modifier (min1), NOT (int+cha, min 1)

As for stats:
16dex, 16int, rest into con, dump cha. A keen weapon wouldn't be bad, just remember that you're actually only jhave opportune parry for combat purposes and dodging for tactical movement. So, even though you will have int+1 panache, you won't be spamming it. Unless you also get combat reflexes.
But then you move more towards swash than invest.

Keen weapon in your case would be a DEFENSIVE enchant:
Most of your damage is precision, so no doubling that.
But the more you crit, the more you can parry, and you will have really good attack bonus, so chances are that parries=free deflects.

Also forgot to add, that you can easily grab a masterwork buckler with inspired blade and gain a bit of defense.

I would advice against a heavier shield, because you need that hand to make extracts/use potions too.