My point exactly :)What about a druid in tiger form with a lion AC at level 8. Please do tell me how much damage the 10 (12 with haste) attacks do.
If this was directed at me since you quoted me, I'll just mention, I'm not interested in writing up any stats, and I'm not sure where I stand on the pummeling charge ban/unban topic at this time. I was just bringing up that the comparison up thread was missing a fairly standard item available at that level that greatly benefits any class that gets full attacks on the move.
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If this was directed at me since you quoted me, I'll just mention, I'm not interested in writing up any stats, and I'm not sure where I stand on the pummeling charge ban/unban topic at this time. I was just bringing up that the comparison up thread was missing a fairly standard item available at that level that greatly benefits any class that gets full attacks on the move.My point exactly :)What about a druid in tiger form with a lion AC at level 8. Please do tell me how much damage the 10 (12 with haste) attacks do.
At level 8, a MoMSacred Fist has access to Channel Vigor as a Swift action for a Haste effect at no cost.
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I am just trying to make a point that this is basically only being done because it's new. The half a dozen ways to get pounce or pounce style effects still exist many of them being stronger than something which is getting banned.
On the other hand, I'd much prefer that they hold off on allowing something questionable until after the minmoptimizers™ have had their way with it and the abuses become a known quantity.
Allowing it early and facing the decision of whether to remove it later causes far more headaches.
I don't imagine this will happen, but it would be cool if new sources had options divided into three categories: allowed, disallowed, and pending. Pending items would eventually become allowed or disallowed depending on a complex algebra of x ()^() and influenced by well-reasoned arguments in the PFS forums.
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I'd also point out that outside of PFS, any changes made by Paizo are non-binding. If your GM is unwilling to consider using the old version, that's a GM issue. If you're the GM...I'll go ahead and assume you're not the GM.I GM occasionally but I'm not the main GM in our group. We do use the old version of Crane Wing but we wouldn't even know about the old version if we bought our books after the change was made.
And if that's the case, we wouldn't be having this discussion with you, you wouldn't be all up set about the change, and everything would be hunky-dory.
I'm not sure how getting mad at PFS is resolving anything.
We do, however, appreciate your opinion, and I'm sure that John Compton will take it into consideration along with all the other comments here.
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You can't use claw attacks with Pummeling style, it's unarmed strikes only. You could take another feat, Feral Combat training, to be able to, but at that point, with that many feats invested, you'd be earning that much damage, for sure.
I created a Brawler (mutagentic mauler) / Bloodrager 2nd level character. When raging and mutagen enhanced I get two claw attacks for 1d6+7.
If I dipped MoMS at 3rd level and took Pummeling Charge, I could do 4d6 +28 damage on a crit.
Sorry, I didn't give you the entirety of my build. Yes, Feral Combat Training was part of the build.
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I don't think 4d6+28 is unreasonable damage for a crit. Especially a weapon that only crits on a natural 20.
A straight STR character with a great axe would easily pull 3d12+30 at level 1. A great sword would get 4d6 +20 and crit threaten equally often. Also the 4d6+28 assumes that both attacks hit doesn't it? If you fail to hit with an attack it doesn't get counted into the crit.
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Given the nerf to pummeling charge I don't think it would be game breaking to include it in the game even with MoMS.
Pummeling Charge's damage output is limited by two pretty big factors.
The first is that it now requires the use of unarmed strikes, and even though you can make it so all your hits crit if one of them unarmed strikes are still only a times 2. Many builds that use 15-20 weapons crit effectivly every hit for times 2 as well.
The second way Pummeling Charge's damage is limited is in the number of attacks produced. Lets assume a worst case scenario and a person dips into MoMS or Unarmed Fighter to get the feat early. At best this means they can get two attacks on a charge as opposed to one. So at the low levels we are worried about they get an extra attack once a fight and only if they themselves are not charged. As the character progresses in level they will eventually pick up two more attacks (level 6 or 7), but then they are also at the point where NPC's will be better equipped to wheather the damage and do some punishment in return.
I created a Brawler (mutagentic mauler) / Bloodrager 2nd level character. When raging and mutagen enhanced I get two claw attacks for 1d6+7.
If I dipped MoMS at 3rd level and took Pummeling Charge, I could do 4d6 +28 damage on a crit.
Does that sound like the damage a 3rd level character should be doing?
And this isn't even super optimized. I am only starting at a 16 Strength. How gross would this be if I started with a 20 Strength? And had Power Attack? And then at 4th level dipped Cleric of Gozreh with the Growth Subdomain and upped the claws to 1d8 +14 or 4d8+56 on a Crit.
This can snowball pretty badly if you make choices simply for damage output instead of just making a character that's decent at what he does.
I realize this is late to the party but:
1.)As has been stated already, 4d6+28 damage or its equivalent(about 42 damage) isn't too terribly difficult. Simple Falcata Barbarian with a Large-sized one(suboptimal I know), 18 starting strength, rage, and power attack will crit for 4d6+36, and will threaten a critical hit as often as a pummeler. At level 1.2.)This isn't a problem with pummeling charge. The feat doesn't actually add any damage. This is an issue with Pummeling Style alone, and in and amongst itself, not a reason pummeling charge should be banned. Now, you might have a case if you were talking about a character that was able to wipe up entire encounters(often there are only 2-3 real threats in a fight), and due to this speed was breaking a game, but even then, the number of ways to shut down a charge is really quite staggering.
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Some classes are designed to do lots of damage. Some are designed to cast spells. Some are designed to pick locks and disable traps.
The Monk has a bunch of other things they can do. Their schtick is not just to deal damage. But if you put their damage output even partially on par with a Fighter or Barbarian built specifically to do tons of damage, and they still can do all the other things a monk can do without damage output... you start to merge into the realm of unbalanced.
So while the base damage output might not be gross when compared to a reasonably powered Paladin or Barbarian, it is gross when compared to what a Monk should be doing.
Balance between classes is not all about DPR.
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Some classes are designed to do lots of damage. Some are designed to cast spells. Some are designed to pick locks and disable traps.
The Monk has a bunch of other things they can do. Their schtick is not just to deal damage. But if you put their damage output even partially on par with a Fighter or Barbarian built specifically to do tons of damage, and they still can do all the other things a monk can do without damage output... you start to merge into the realm of unbalanced.
So while the base damage output might not be gross when compared to a reasonably powered Paladin or Barbarian, it is gross when compared to what a Monk should be doing.
Balance between classes is not all about DPR.
The other things a monk can do are relatively negligible, on par with the other things a barbarian or paladin can do at best. Barbarians have the skill points and class skills to do all manner of things other than beat people with an axe, and paladins have pretty beefy party buffs and healing as well as non-combat class skills (my paladin single-handedly carried a scenario earlier this month on the strength of his Diplomacy skill; the aforementioned greatsword only came out once to smite a bearded devil that was hiding in a closet). Monks have a lot of corner-case and outright extraneous abilities, but that doesn't make for extraordinary utility accounting for what most of them actually do.
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Some classes are designed to do lots of damage. Some are designed to cast spells. Some are designed to pick locks and disable traps.
The Monk has a bunch of other things they can do. Their schtick is not just to deal damage. But if you put their damage output even partially on par with a Fighter or Barbarian built specifically to do tons of damage, and they still can do all the other things a monk can do without damage output... you start to merge into the realm of unbalanced.
So while the base damage output might not be gross when compared to a reasonably powered Paladin or Barbarian, it is gross when compared to what a Monk should be doing.
Balance between classes is not all about DPR.
So while I agree with your general sentiment, I believe the scale is already out of whack. Barbarians have a ton of excellent options that do not directly incorporate into DPR, but AC and DPR is just about all a fighter gets - and a raging brutality beast totem pouncer is just plain better at the DPR game.
Monks never quite achieve the same plus to the damage dice as a barb or fighter, but with some support from use magic device, running an 6d8, 8d8, or even 16d8 if you really go all out base damage goes a long way to close the gap.
All that aside, I really don't see the Pummeling Charge option as detrimental. It is certainly strong, but not brokenly so in my opinion.
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Some classes are designed to do lots of damage. Some are designed to cast spells. Some are designed to pick locks and disable traps.
The Monk has a bunch of other things they can do. Their schtick is not just to deal damage. But if you put their damage output even partially on par with a Fighter or Barbarian built specifically to do tons of damage, and they still can do all the other things a monk can do without damage output... you start to merge into the realm of unbalanced.
So while the base damage output might not be gross when compared to a reasonably powered Paladin or Barbarian, it is gross when compared to what a Monk should be doing.
Balance between classes is not all about DPR.
So while I agree with your general sentiment, I believe the scale is already out of whack. Barbarians have a ton of excellent options that do not directly incorporate into DPR, but AC and DPR is just about all a fighter gets - and a raging brutality beast totem pouncer is just plain better at the DPR game.
Monks never quite achieve the same plus to the damage dice as a barb or fighter, but with some support from use magic device, running an 6d8, 8d8, or even 16d8 if you really go all out base damage goes a long way to close the gap.
All that aside, I really don't see the Pummeling Charge option as detrimental. It is certainly strong, but not brokenly so in my opinion.
I'm not saying its broken.
And what I'm saying is, that the Monk doesn't need to catch up DPR wise. Not every class needs to be able to do the same amount of damage in combat. Or even come close.
They can contribute in other ways.
Master of Many Styles, however, breaks the balancing of the various feats it can take without prerequisites and get abilities that low level characters should not have.
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I'm curious to see what you're doing with a monk that lets you contribute to more than just combat. Skills don't count, since anyone can get them.Guess I've been playing my monk wrong then.They can contribute in other ways.In no significant capacity can they do this.
A) Skills do count because not every character has the same class skills, skill points and ability distribution.
B) DPR is not the only way to contribute to combat.
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A) Skills do count because not every character has the same class skills, skill points and ability distribution.Monks don't get all that many more skills than other melee classes, and their class skill list isn't anything all that special. So no, skills don't really count for something a monk can do to contribute outside of damage that the other classes we're talking about cannot.
B) DPR is not the only way to contribute to combat.So, uh, what are you doing other than damage with the monk that you cannot also do with another class? Barring the Tetori turning off freedom of movement, of course, which is only one small (optional) part of the class.
So since all martial classes can do the same thing if you build them right then I guess we really only should have one martial class. Let's go with barbarian since they have the highest DPR. We will get rid of all the others because they can't possibly contribute in a meaningful way to the game since their DPR doesn't match a barbarians. Never mind that thousands of people have played effective martial characters that were not barbarians and had fun doing it. They surely must all have been doing it wrong.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think that giving monks the Pummeling Style tree is broken. But the assumption that monks are somehow useless without it is non-sense.
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Experience from running Eyes of the Ten multiple times and various high level mods:
High-level monks are really hard to kill.
My experience has been that the monk is in competition for the highest AC on the board (although this usually involves mage armor) and is usually in competition for the highest saves on the board as well (plus evasion, which makes some killer situations painless). In addition, the ability to spend ki points to dim door means that it's really hard to pin a monk down, and they can locate themselves where they cause the most problems fairly easily.
I know that in Pathfinder offense > defense in general, but if you have really good defenses, it can make things a lot easier. And a class that has better defenses than a barbarian or a fighter shouldn't have the same damage output as either of them - he still needs to have a respectable damage output or else all those defenses are not worth much - but saying that defenses don't matter at all in class balance is just plain wrong.
That being said, it would really be nice if a monk performed at low-level like it does at high-level.
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I'm waiting with baited breath to hear stories of you using something the monk has to do something another character couldn't have done better.Guess I've been playing my monk wrong then.They can contribute in other ways.In no significant capacity can they do this.
The strength of a monk is in its versatility. Sure you can build another martial class that could do anything a monk can do better than a monk. But can you build another martial class that does everything a monk can do at the same time better?
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My posts were in response to Andrew Christian's claim that because monks could apparently contribute in more ways than other classes, they shouldn't be allowed to get to the same DPR. I'm saying I don't think they can really contribute that much more than any other melee class can, so they should be able to get the same DPR if they want to.
I am not sure if contribute is the right word here, as it is rather vaguely defined. I think, to a degree, everyone here is arguing based on different definitions of contribute.
The issue here is that monks can do a lot of things well without really trying. They move fast, have good AC, great saves, evasion, immunity to disease and poison, decent skill selection augmented by the ability to not be encumbered by armor, can augment many of their abilities through ki and can deal decent damage without even using a weapon. And all of that they get without even trying. Giving them all of that and the same DPR potential as martial classes designed to specialize in DPR is broken because the other martial classes can't get that same versatility and an optimized DPR at the same time.
My only difference with Andrew's comments is that, while I do agree that the Pummeling Style tree does improve a monk's potential DPR, I don't agree it brings them all the way up to the same DPR potential as barbarians or fighters.
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I know that in Pathfinder offense > defense in general, but if you have really good defenses, it can make things a lot easier. And a class that has better defenses than a barbarian or a fighter shouldn't have the same damage output as either of them.
Well, in fairness, at end game the barbarian and fighter are still better off in the offense department. Let's do some quick semi-optimized end game examples for comparison, all using their move plus attack ability:
Barbarian 20, dual-talent human
Melee +5 courageous furious nodachi +52/+47/+42/+37 (1d10+82/15-20 x2)
Str 46 (17 base, 2 race, 5 level, 6 enhancement, 5 inherent, 11 morale from rage and courageous)
Con 38 (14 base, 2 race, 6 enhancement, 5 inherent, 11 morale)
20 BAB
18 Str
7 enhancement (+5 courageous furious nodachi)
1 competence
4 morale
6 reckless abandon
2 charge
-6 power attack
36 Str (horn of the criosphinx)
21 Con
7 enhancement
18 power attack
Fighter (Dawnflower Dervish) 20
Melee +5 courageous wakizashi +40/+35/+30/+25 (1d6+40/15-20 x2) and
Melee +5 wakizashi +40/+35/+25 (1d6+34/15-20 x2)
Dex 36 (18 base, 2 race, 5 level, 6 enhancement, 5 inherent)
20 BAB
13 Dex
2 weapon focus and greater
6 weapon training w/dueling gloves
5 enhancement
1 competence
3 morale
-2 two-weapon fighting feats
-2 lightning strike class feature
-6 piranha strike
13 Dex
4 weapon specialization and greater
6 weapon training
5 enhancement
12/6 piranha strike
Monk (Master of Many Styles) 20, dual-talent human
Melee +4 courageous unarmed strike +33/+28/+23 (2d10+44/19-20 x2) and
Melee +4 courageous unarmed strike +33/+28/+23 (2d10+40/19-20 x2)
Str 36 (18 base, 2 race, 5 level, 6 enhancement, 5 inherent)
Dex 19 (14 base, 2 race, 3 inherent)
15 BAB
13 Str
4 enhancement
1 competence
3 morale
1 weapon focus
2 charge
-2 two-weapon fighting
-4 power attack
32 Str (13 base, 13 horn of the criosphinx, 6 dragon style)
4 enhancement
8/4 power attack
Monk 20, non-MoMS to retain flurry
Melee +4 courageous unarmed strike +36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21 (2d10+42/19-20 x2)
Str 36 (18 base, 2 race, 5 level, 6 enhancement, 5 inherent)
20 BAB
13 Str
4 enhancement
1 competence
3 morale
1 weapon focus
2 charge
-2 flurry
-6 power attack
26 Str (horn of the criosphinx)
4 enhancement
12 power attack
So we can all take a gander at that to draw our own conclusions. The barbarian is clearly lightyears in the lead on offense, but each of the other examples is certainly not bad. Pat that, the fighter and monk examples do fairly comparable damage per hit, but the fighter's increased accuracy is very significant to overall DPR. The MoMS giving up flurry also hurts in long term in the DPS arena, which is further reason why it is such a strong splash item.
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Here is a fun build:
Lvl 2 MoMS, Lvl 18 Sacred Fist
Dex based, Agile Courageous Amulet of Mighty Fists +5
Dex 36, 20 Base, +5 Lvl, +5 Inherent, +6 Enh
Wis 22, 12 Base, +4 Inherent, +6 Enh
Con 22, 14 Base, +4 Inherent, +6 Enh
Feats Weapon Finesse, Pummeling Style, Piranha Strike, Wpn Focus Unarmed, Pummeling Charge, Combat Style Master
Trait Fates Favored
+5 Courageous Agile Unarmed Strike, +44/+44/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29, 2d10 + 37, 19-20,x2
Accuracy
Bab +20
Dex +13
Enh +5
Luck +7
Comp +1
Morale +3
Piranha Strike -6
Wpn Focus +1
Flurry -2
Charge +2
AC: 53 Dex +13, Wis +6, Luck +2, Insight +1, Def +5, Lvl +5, Bracers +8, NA +5, -2 Charge Base 10
Saves
Fort: +28 Monk +3, WP +11, Luck +2, Competence +1, Resistance +5, Con +6
Ref: +30 Monk +3, WP +6, Luck +2, Competence +1, Resistance +5, Dex +13
Will: +28 Monk +3, WP +11, Luck +2, Competence +1, Resistance +5, Wis +6
Fervor 15/day for Divine Power (Haste adds an extra attack at +44, or Divine Favor)
Combat Style Master allows you to start in a style and use your first swift action for Fervor'd spell
You have both Evasion and Improved "Evasion" for Fortitude Saves
You also have a Ki pool for extra attacks so on successive rounds of combat with divine power going and ki points you
could have +44/+44/+44/+44/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29, so on a single round you can roll 9 attack rolls and if one is a crit, they all crit.
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In further fairness, I personally believe that all melee classes need some manner in which to have both movement as well as multiple attacks. It's not just the barbarian, fighter, monk, and mounted characters that deserve them.
Because their is a lot of feats and abilities that make charge extra strong though, I would like to see as few of these options be charge-related as possible, however. A built in feature of being able to take a move action and full attack minus your highest attack roll would be a pretty simple fix for all.
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Without building for it, a monk actually won't have all that good of an AC. It's just that most monks do build for it. I've seen plenty of monks who think that their class features are enough for armor and get shredded because of it. And the highest AC characters I've seen in Society play were Fighters, not monks, so that goes back to my point of this isn't even something unique to monks.
I'll give you great saves, although a Barbarian with Superstition will probably have better saves for most of the things that matter.
And decent damage without a weapon depends on your definition of decent. In order to do appreciable damage past the first few levels compared to weapons, you generally need to pick up an Amulet of Mighty fists, which costs more than weapons do, takes up your neck slot, and is more restrictive as to what properties you can give it.
Again, the issue is not whether or not you can build a character that can do any one thing better than a monk, but rather whether you can build a character that does everything a monk can do better than a monk.
A lot of what the monk gets sounds really neat on paper, but in play it's not worth nearly as much as it sounds like it should be.
That depends a lot upon the game you are playing in and how you play the character. If you try to play a monk like a fighter, then ultimately a fighter would be a better choice. And if you are looking strictly at DPR, then you are doing exactly that.
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Again, the issue is not whether or not you can build a character that can do any one thing better than a monk, but rather whether you can build a character that does everything a monk can do better than a monk.
I do not believe that preparing your character for the unlikely event of needing to fall slowly while within 5 feet of a wall is really necessary for a full comparison.
The monks abilities are too weak or incredibly situational to really quantify.
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Again, the issue is not whether or not you can build a character that can do any one thing better than a monk, but rather whether you can build a character that does everything a monk can do better than a monk.I do not believe that preparing your character for the unlikely event of needing to fall slowly while within 5 feet of a wall is really necessary for a full comparison.
The monks abilities are too weak or incredibly situational to really quantify.
Generally speaking, this.
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Being able to jump without having to move 10' first is pretty cool and very useful outside if combat.
If a 2 PP potion of fly was not a thing, I might have greater empathy for that viewpoint. Respectfully though, across 86 something odd levels of PFS game play, I can count on one hand the number of times I thought "high jump would actually be decent here". Many of those were chase scenes.
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Things are also banned for being over powered or under priced.
With a X4 weapon in one hand and an 18-20 weapon in the other pummeling charge was overpowered. The FAQ has banhammered this.
If horn of the crinosphinx or* dragon style works on the whole thing its overpowered. (Hopefully an FAQ comming soon will banhammer this)
If both get taken care of this is the feat that monks have been praying for for 15 years, need and deserve.
*(or possibly and to the stat stackers)