OK here is a situation.
Playing SS#2 Scenario "The Toll of the Bell"
Both locations are still open.
Blessing deck down to 5 (the heroes are losing this game.)
Ship is Man's Promise.
Jirelle just drew Goblin Keelhauling and failed, burying 6 cards. This leaves her with 4 cards in hand and 0 in her deck. She is going to die at the end of the turn. Do she say to hell with it.
She uses the Man's Promise's When Commanding this Ships ability to "You may discard a card from the blessing deck to explore your location."
She continues to do this till the blessing deck is out of cards. The last card she explores is Whalebone Pilk (exactly what she hoped.) She blows the attack roll and takes damage leaving her with no card in hand. But then Whalebone is not the last card in the location deck so he is considered undefeated. That means he escapes and takes a card from the blessing deck to mask which location he is hiding in.
As noted the blessing deck is empty. Do you lose immediately or at the end of Jirelle's turn.
If immediately then she doesn't need to reset her hand a doesn't die.
p.8 says under Advance the Blessing Deck - "If you have to remove one or more cards from the blessings deck for any reason and there are not enough cards to do so, the players lose the scenario (see Ending the Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path on p.18."
p.18 says under Ending the Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path - "If at any point, you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately and your party of adventurers loses."
It seems like this could work if the loss is immediate.
Thoughts?
Yup. Sort of a corner case made possible only by the Man's Promise power and the fact you got lucky and found the villain in that location. But not a corner case that seems worth fixing.
Have Jirelle get some rest and then try again.
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This is the kind of post that makes the designers want to rewrite the whole game.
I was kind of curious if it might have been the intent for some of the ship "discard a blessing from the blessing deck" abilities to be limited to once per turn. I started using the ship that lets you recharge a random card from your discard pile in my solo Damiel game and it makes me feel pretty invincible since in most normal scenarios I have nearly half the Blessing Deck left over at the end anyway.
Sorry Mike. Didn't mean to bum you out. Still love the game... and that I get to keep Jirelle for attempt 4 on "The Toll of the Bell." Brutal scenario without healing (Jirelle, Lirianne and Seltyiel... aka the half-elf crew.) Just not enough explores amongst them.
Ron - How would you seize Deathknell? Am I missing something obvious. Neither Whalebone nor the Deathknell say it can be seized and I believe you need a card to say a ship can be seized to seize it... like the Enemy Ship (henchmen) for instance. I can't remember what cards allow seizing outside of Enemy Ship. Maybe there is a barrier??? However... that is a damn cool ability on that ship if you can get it.
Oh, I'm not bummed out. I just started a discussion among the creative team that basically said, "So, is this what you want?"
Don't worry, we're not errataing Jirelle to death.
Today.
This is the kind of post that makes the designers want to rewrite the whole game.
Then you guys are way to harsh on yourselves. Because I think most of us love this game just as it. Weird corner cases in all.
I don't care that you can avoid death by "over exploring." Or that I don't loose because, on my last turn with no means to explore, I encounter Ambush at the last location and the only other card in the deck is the villain. Or that I could "tie my dagger to my shortbow" for some extra damage (I still kind of miss that). Or that when trying to temporarily close the Swallowtail Festival I might find a henchman and be able to permanently close the Swallowtail Festival.
I know I ask lots of questions, so I hope I'm not at all a source of you guys wanting to rewrite the whole game. Because I love it as is. Honestly, you could say to every question I ask, "Well, that is just the way it is." And I'd be totally 100% fine with that. I mean, I appreciate that you guys try to make it perfect, but it really isn't necessary.
But you know...if you didn't want that to be avoidable, you could just add to to the rules.
Make this:
If at any point, you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately and your party of adventurers loses.
In to this:
If at any point you need to remove cards from the blessing deck for a reason other than the start of a new turn and there are none, the player whose turn it is immediately resets their hand and ends their turn.
If at any point, you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately and your party of adventurers loses.
So, in the situation Shade325 described, Jirelle would have had to end her turn and reset her hand and died. Then when the next player went to advance the deck for their turn, there is none. And the game ends. And then you have a funeral at sea for Jirelle.
But if you also just want to say, "that is just how it is" I see no problem with that. Because microscopic flaws and all, this game rocks.
Ron - How would you seize Deathknell? Am I missing something obvious. Neither Whalebone nor the Deathknell say it can be seized and I believe you need a card to say a ship can be seized to seize it... like the Enemy Ship (henchmen) for instance. I can't remember what cards allow seizing outside of Enemy Ship. Maybe there is a barrier??? However... that is a damn cool ability on that ship if you can get it.
I haven't this one yet, so I don't know what exactly is in it. And I'm clearly not Ron. But you can only seize a ship if a card tells you that you can seize a ship. I don't see anything telling you that you can seize the Deathknell.
Guys, you're overreacting to my reaction. We're all good here. It's just every now and then, the players find a thing we never expected. And so we get together and say, "So… you want to rewrite the game now?" It's not a bad thing.
Alright, well then just take all that as us giving you guys some love as opposed to the more regular headaches we might induce.
What is the longest playtest session? And were cupcakes involved?
Oh, I'm sure we've gone a complete calendar day at one point or other.
There are very often cupcakes.
Just for the sake of discussion...
Thought more about how to use (or some might say abuse) this option.
Let's say you're in a more regular scenario ("The Toll of the Bell" has an atypical set up) with Man's Promise for a ship.
There are two open locations (A & B) left with only a few blessings in the blessing deck. All the characters are at location A. Character 1 begins his turn and goes to location B encounters the villain. The Characters at location A can easily temporary close location B. Despite Character 1's giving it his all the dice roll only 1's and 2's and Character 1 loses most of his hand and knows he doesn't have enough cards in his deck to live through resetting his hand. He know the villain is in his location because the other characters temporary closed location B. So rather than die he just keeps using Man's Promise to find the villain and keep losing until there are no blessings left in the blessing deck at which point the other Character's stop temporary closing location B. Character 1 now encounters the villain, loses and now has to take a card from the blessing deck to shuffle the villain with... you get the idea. This feels like a slightly more likely situation than Jirelle's in the original post.
Anyways... just mentally running the numbers. Have to say looking at Man's Promise I wouldn't have seen this option. Wasn't till I had a dying character and I got desperate enough that I found it.
I pulled Pilk four times in a row on the top card (after reshuffling each time, on different turns). At that point, I retired my characters to a swank apartment in Azir and put the game away.
After coasting through this scenario with Freiya and Lem, coming out of it with something like 8 plunder cards from Plik alone, Jirelle and Damiel floundered through their Fort checks and obviously are a terrible duo for the Str/Divine one at the end. Though we got him down to the last card in one location, we had no way to finish the job and called it a day.
I'm Ron! And I thought you could seize any ol' ship you encounter, unless it specifically says you can't seize it--but now I know better.
Ron has the misfortune to have learned a few of the playtest ship rules, and to be caught in the confusion over the several versions that we tried. I have a lot of sympathy for this pain, especially when someone asks me a detailed question and I have to say "I think I know the answer, but let's check the rulebook to see what got printed."
Thanks again to Ron and all of our awesome playtesters.
If my wife and I played true death in our scenario we'd never get to actually see the whole game. We house ruled a penalty for dying during a scenario which can actually be either great, whatever, or devastating depending on your luck.
This way we can keep going and experience the later parts of the game. We don't have nearly enough free time to play to be able to withstand losing during AP3 and having to start from scratch.
If we both die.. well. .that hasn't happened yet..
You don't lose your campaign progress when characters die; you only lose the characters.
The new characters you create can start on the most-recently reached scenario, though they will be a bit underpowered compared to your old characters.
As you play, then, your best option is to play to survive while trying to win for a while, so that even if you lose on time, you'll be improving your decks until you can win normally.
Don't you lose your feats? If that's the case the dying on AP 3 or 4 wouldn't be so bad because you could go back and get the best gear from decks B, C, and 1.
This is the kind of post that makes the designers want to rewrite the whole game....
But you know...if you didn't want that to be avoidable, you could just add to to the rules.Make this:
If at any point, you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately and your party of adventurers loses.In to this:
So ...If at any point you need to remove cards from the blessing deck for a reason other than the start of a new turn and there are none, the player whose turn it is immediately resets their hand and ends their turn.
If at any point, you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately and your party of adventurers loses.
Hi everyone....
A) Please Mike DO NOT even think of "rewriting the whole game"! Hawk, Vic and I would go insane I guess.
B) More seriously, your fix wouldn't work Hawk because to finish her turn, the current player need to deal with the villain escaping and has no blessing for that. So on our side, we adopted the following house rule that may be included in the rules in Season 5 "the return of mini not-this-Mike" (and not before in order to preserve Mike's sanity).
Since the rule
If at any point, you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately and your party of adventurers loses.
Only covers ADVANCING the blessing deck, which to me is a specific step that only happens at the beginning of a player's turn.
Then we miss a rule for any other cases of moving a card out of the blessing deck if the deck is empty. For the fun of the game, we play this (wording to be optimised certainly):
If the blessing deck is empty, as per the golden rule, any POWER that would need to take, discard, banish, bury... a card from the blessing deck doesn't apply/can't be used.
This said, you must fulfill any RULE that needs you take a blessing from the blessing deck by taking a random blessing from the box instead.
This way 1) you cannot use for example a ship power once the blessing deck is empty
2) the scenario is only lost when the ADVANCING the blessing deck step comes (i. e. next player and you die before)3) RULES that need cards from the blessing deck (typical example : undefeated villain escaping) can be fulfilled, thus non stopping the game until the beginning of next turn.
Simple and... sorry she dies.
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And now I won't rewrite the entire game.
I don't think so. If there is no blessing to flip at the start of your turn, then your turn doesn't start, so you don't have to end it.
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I don't think so. If there is no blessing to flip at the start of your turn, then your turn doesn't start, so you don't have to end it.
Agreed.
The sequence would be:
- Draw from the blessings deck; being the last blessing.
- Execute the (rest of the) sequence of steps of the player's turn including resetting their hand. End turn.
- End game. (Hopefully you win.)
There is no additional turns because there is no more blessings left. So that next player does not have a turn. The scenario has ended.
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I'm not so sure. The blessing discard is the first phase of a turn... so that implies that a turn is indeed happening already and not initiated only by a successful blessing deck flip.
If there is one blessing left at the beginning of your turn, you flip it. You perform your turn. At the end of your turn, you reset your hand. End turn. If you do not have enough cards to reset your hand, you die.
There are no more cards to flip in the blessings deck so the scenario ends.
If there is more than one card in the blessings deck when you go to flip it, and during your turn you advance the blessings deck to the point where there are no more cards, you still have to reset your hand at the end of your turn. If you don't have enough cards to reset your hand, you die.
If, at any point, you need to advance the blessings deck but there are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately
The FAQ only clears up that if you advance the blessings deck during your turn, you still have to finish your turn including resetting your hand.
Resolved in FAQ.Does this apply even for the blessing discard to start a turn?
Why not?
I don't see a problem with applying the FAQ as it is written, i. e. any drawing (even the start of the turn one) from an empty blessing deck does not end immediately the scenario but rather end the turn then the scenario.Only difference I see is that there can be effects/powers/cards played during the end of turn step, having a final impact on the scenario before its end. In most cases it won't help you win the scenario on the finish line (you can't explore so you can't encounter a villain for example - and you wouldn't be allowed to play cards like ally or blessing to explore since you can only play cards related to the end of turn step). But there MAY be exceptional situations where indeed it may have an impact (win a last minute loot? die just before the end?). If so, let it be - won't break the spirit of the game. It can even create unique heroic situations (and WE WANT THAT: as a DM I'd like to let those kind of situation in the very-rare-and-dramatic-but-yet-possible class).
Bottom line, the FAQ is great and should be applied as such. Why not?
Side note: if by some kind of miracle the character that starts her turn with the empty blessing deck happens to be the one having the Holy Candle in his hand, can he play it at some point - thus allowing additional turns, with the new ruling?
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Are you asking that if the blessings deck is empty at the start of the player's turn the scenario is not over?
So there's one (or more) blessing(s) on the deck.
Player Y discards a blessing.
Player Y takes her turn.
[During the course of her turn, she discards the rest of the blessings.]
Player Y ends her turn after resetting her hand. (If she did not have enough cards to reset her hand, her character dies.)
Then ...
Player Z has no cards left in the blessings deck.
He attempts to flip a card but can't.
He takes his turn.
Player Z ends his turn after resetting his hand. (If he did not have enough cards to reset his hand, his character dies.)
And then the game ends?
This makes no sense. And potentially kills Player Z if he threw all his resources (cards) to help Player Y end the scenario (by killing the villain but failing). Even if Player Z has a Holy Candle to play in his hand. It is too late. Should have played it the prior round.
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But still, let's say Player Y does what I said. She burns through the blessings, resets her hand, ends her turn. Officially the scenario is not over until ...
Player Z goes to flips a blessing and there is none. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Do not reset your hand. Do not end your turn.
Is that what you're saying or does Player Z have to reset his hand as well? (Not take a turn. You can't play a Holy Candle from your hand.)
If Player Z also has to reset his hand, then there would be the potential for people not to play cards for Player Y. Last player turn: Player Y flips the blessing card. No more blessings. Player Y explores and encounters the villain. Player W and Player Z close their locations. Player Z uses an Ally to help close it. He has 4 cards in his hand (and a 5 hand size). He's already discarded all his cards for this last round of play. No more in his draw pile. Player Y makes her first combat check with a blessing from Player W. The roll is over the check. She then attempts the next combat check. She adds a blessing as does Player Z. 3d10 + 1d8 + 4. She rolls all 1s for a total of 8 and fails. She takes damage but recharges an armor to counter. She draws up to her hand size. End turn.
Player Z has no blessings to flip. Resets his hand. Dies. End turn.
That's why it doesn't work. I'd hold back or not discard everything for that last attempt if I knew I had to reset my hand potentially after the scenario was failed.
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I feel that you're getting stuck on trying to adjust the rules for your benefit.
As the rules state, flipping a blessing is part of your turn, and is, in fact, the very first thing you do on your turn. So your turn has begun.
As the FAQ states, if you must flip a card and cannot, then the current character goes to the end of the turn and deals with resetting.
During resetting, if the character doesn't have enough cards in their character deck to draw back to their hand, they die.
This happens regardless of whether the previous character died or not. The two deaths are independent.
It is not up to the rules to change to keep your characters alive, but up to your characters to try to play in such a way as to stay alive.
If you see bad things in the future, such as a blessing deck about to run out, it's probably best to prepare for that instead of playing every card in your hand in hopes that you can win the scenario, but if you choose to do that, that was your choice, and you must face the consequences, good or bad, for choosing to do so. Bad rolls happen; good rolls happen; randomness happens.
I'm pretty sure if your party won the scenario by doing that, there wouldn't be any complaint at all, but if the party lost and ended up with two character deaths because they pushed hard and failed, then DOWN WITH THE RULES!
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I'd hold back or not discard everything for that last attempt if I knew I had to reset my hand potentially after the scenario was failed.
That's exactly what you SHOULD do in that situation if you feel that the extra push might not be enough to win. If it's not guaranteed, then hold back, otherwise, you're chancing death, you know you're chancing death, and you're choosing to chance death, and if death happens, then it's on you. Accept the death and say it was a hero's death, fighting to the last breath in an attempt to save the world.
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Actually, what the rulebook says:
If, at any point, you need to advance the blessings deck but there are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately and your party of adventurers loses.
But the problem was that someone came up with the idea that if a player sees they're going to die by resetting their hand, they advance the blessings deck to end the scenario immediately. That's what caused the FAQ entry:
If, at any point, you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, immediately end the current turn; the scenario then ends and your party of adventurers loses.
I can't believe the intent was to have the next player have any form of a turn. If so, the FAQ needs to be changed again. There have been PLENTY of times I've thrown everything I had to help someone else win on the last or second to last turn. And that meant I discarded all my weapons and/or armor in order to fill my hand with blessings, etc. that were needed for the endgame. It also meant that I'd die on my turn if I'd have one.
I have to believe the intent is that someone trying to advance the blessings deck to end the scenario immediately still has to end their turn.
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I guess the better way to put it is:
If, at the start of your turn, when you need to advance the blessings deck but there are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately and your party of adventurers loses.
That way you avoid the sticky mess of advancing the blessings deck during a player's turn. A turn has a start, a bunch of middle stuff, resetting your hand, and end.
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My wording covers that, though.
You don't address the advancing the blessings deck during a turn because that's not where the check for scenario end is. A turn still happens in its order. It is at the beginning of the turn that you check. See?
EDIT: So you'd want an additional:
If, during your turn, you advance the blessings deck and there are no cards remaining in it, you must reset your hand and end your turn immediately.
???
EDIT EDIT: I added the "reset your hand" so people wouldn't be able to avoid that prior to "end your turn immediately".
It is also of note that the FAQ only updates page 18, not page 8 (the turn sequence).
Also, since "Advance the blessing deck" is a required part of the turn, I would think that not being able to due so means you don't take your turn. The scenario simply ends.
I'm sure Vic will step back in to clarify this.
I disagree. You enter the "advance the blessing decks" step and attempt to advance it. You cannot, so the scenario will end - but it's already your turn. I doubt that this is the intent, but that's definitely how it appears RAW. It's certainly (poor, miserable reason for interpreting it thusly though this is) how most card games work (draw phase anyone?) and can be a source of confusion.
Chief Technical Officer
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Prior to this FAQ change, when the game ended due to running out of blessings, it would happen like this:
T-1: One card left in the blessings deck. The current player starts his turn, which begins with "Advance the blessings deck." He flips that last card in the deck, does whatever else he's doing for his turn, resets his hand, and ends his turn.
T-0: No cards left in the blessings deck. The next player starts her turn, which begins with "Advance the blessings deck." She goes to flip that last card in the deck, but there isn't one there; the scenario immediately ends and the party loses.
After the FAQ change, it now works like this:
T-1: One card left in the blessings deck. The current player starts his turn, which begins with "Advance the blessings deck." He flips that last card in the deck, does whatever else he's doing for his turn, resets his hand, and ends his turn.
T-0: No cards left in the blessings deck. The next player starts her turn, which begins with "Advance the blessings deck." She goes to flip that last card in the deck, but there isn't one there, so she resets her hand and ends her turn; the scenario ends and the party loses.
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So the lesson here is: Don't lose.
T-0: No cards left in the blessings deck. The next player starts her turn, which begins with "Advance the blessings deck." She goes to flip that last card in the deck, but there isn't one there, so she resets her hand and ends her turn; the scenario ends and the party loses.
I'll have to remember this. If someone thinks they're not going to have a turn because they know the Blessing Deck will be empty before it comes to their turn, they may use all of their cards off-turn to help the rest of the team in one last hope that the party might be able to pull something off. However, if they use too many blessings, use spells and fail to recharge them, it may get them killed even if they don't get to actually do anything on their final turn. That would suck.
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T-0: No cards left in the blessings deck. The next player starts her turn, which begins with "Advance the blessings deck." She goes to flip that last card in the deck, but there isn't one there, so she resets her hand and ends her turn; the scenario ends and the party loses.
Why?
So you potentially penalize the person after the last turn of the game? I guess I'm not seeing the reason why this would happen. If she goes to flip the blessing card and there is none, why doesn't she get an actual turn if she's going to take the consequences of taking a turn? Why wouldn't someone be able to cast a Cure on her so that she doesn't die?
This is a potential deal-breaker when helping someone on the very last turn of the game.