Yes, the rogue is underpowered. Yes, there're very few rogue builds where a ninja, slayer, or investigator wouldn't do it better, and yes, with Pathfinder Unchained rewriting the rogue all these points might be eventually moot anyway.
But before this incarnation of the rogue rides off into the sunset, I think we should all remember why the rogue is still so many people's favorite class. For example, here's two of my own favorite rogue builds that are a lot of fun to play.
(note: each of my builds finish after level 9 or 10, because I prefer having my playstyle finalized by then.)
Human (focused study, heart of the Mountains, human alternate rogue favored class bonus (+1/6 rogue talent)
Sniper/Scout archetypes
20 pt. buy- Str 14, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 8
All increases to Intelligence.
Feats and Rogue Talents:
1: skill focus (linguistics), orator
2: combat trick (point blank shot)
3: precise shot
4: ninja trick (improved unarmed strike)
5: focused shot
6: fast stealth, sniper's eye
7: Kirin style
8: skill focus (Stealth), Terrain Mastery (any)
9: Kirin strike
10: Stealthy Sniper
(As I always end up being the party face, orator is a god-send for my Intelligence-based characters. If you don't care about such things, replace focused study with a bonus feat and get to Focused Shot sooner, then fill the gaps with either deadly aim, bullseye shot, shot on the run, or more Terrain Masteries.)
Sample Skills: Linguistics, Stealth, Survival, Perception, Knowledge (arcane, nature, planes, religion), Use Magic Device, Climb, Sleight of Hand, Swim.
Playstyle: This rogue is all about hunting things that it couldn't kill in an upfront fight, and killing them anyway. Since rogues can't really make sneak attacks on a ranged full-attack (at least not easily), the big game hunter deals as much damage as possible with each individual arrow.
At the early levels, the big game hunter must use Stealth to make sneak attacks. With focused shot, he's suddenly adding his +4 Int bonus to damage. Then with his Scout archetype he only has to move 10 ft in any direction to get sneak attack with each arrow. After gaining Kirin Strike, if he's got everything else down as well (moving 10 ft, within 30 ft for focused shot) he's dealing sneak attack damage + 3X his Int modifier damage on each hit. This means at level 9, with an Int modifier of +5 and a 2-pull composite +2 shortbow, he'll be doing 1d6+2+2+1+15+5d6 damage, (an average of 41 damage) per arrow.
Elf, alternate rogue racial bonus (extra uses of minor/major magic)
Swashbuckler/Bandit
Proficiency with Elven Curve Blade
20-pt. buy: Str: 13, Dex: 16, Con: 10, Int: 14, Wis: 8, Cha: 16
Bonus to Dex
Feats and Rogue Talents:
1: weapon finesse
2: minor magic talent (message)
3: major magic talent (vanish)
4: combat trick (power attack)
5: furious focus
6: peerless maneuver
7: offensive defense
8: Underhanded
9: bookish rogue
10: familiar
Important Items: A spring-loaded wrist sheath with a hidden dagger.
skills: diplomacy, acrobatics, stealth, perception, sense motive, bluff, intimidate, profession (sailor), 2 variable (A few points each in escape artist, swim, climb, etc).
Playstyle: This is a fairly basic rogue in combat (tumble to a flanking position, attack, rinse, repeat) but has so many fun things to do as well it just ends up being a lot of fun to play. Not only do you have many, MANY uses of vanish in case of emergencies, but your high Charisma means that 3 times per day when you crit an enemy (not that hard with a keen curve blade) you make it run off screaming. Also, 3 times per day when using your hidden wrist sheath dagger during the surprise round you deal maximum sneak attack damage, and you get to make full attacks during that surprise round meaning you might just get all 3 off on the same target and drop them in a round.
What's your favorite rogue build, favorite memory of a rogue in action, or otherwise favorite thing about the rogue?
I will wait for Pathfinder Unchained and cherry pick from it. I liked rogues in 3.5, and even seen them of use in early pathfinder games before the advanced players guide.
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I love the rogue class for dipping. I have made a lot of great multiclass characters over the years. My favorite was my Halfling barouge delver I made for serpent Skull. Sadly the GM bailed on the adventure after we got to level 9.
Cort underhill used a small great sword had power attack and raging vitality among other feats.
str 14, dex 16, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 10
4 rogue (scout)
2 barbarian
5 Pathfinder delver
Whenever I went straight class it was usually either Bard or Ranger. Though I loved dipping some Rogue and still do.
If you want to boost the rogue make more dynamic trap encounters.
Also make sure that your adventures reduce rocket tag. If a party has a 15 minute work day. The caster using spells to deal with traps is no big deal. Make them miss that wasted spell slot on something the rogue can do for free.
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I'll show the Rogue some love when Paizo starts doing so, thank you very much.
If you want to boost the rogue make more dynamic trap encounters.
Also make sure that your adventures reduce rocket tag. If a party has a 15 minute work day. The caster using spells to deal with traps is no big deal. Make them miss that wasted spell slot on something the rogue can do for free.
Slayers get Trapfinding.
GG Rogues.
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The Official Traps can barely qualify as a hazard. They are frankly too weak. Taking some damage or ability damage is barely worth anything and any healer worth their salt would be walking around with wands of restoration and Cure light wounds at least. It's only lethal at level 1-3, above that...heh traps are just there, because. Third party old school type of traps are another story of course.
Haunts are better than traps by a mile.
Anyway, waiting to see what they will do for them in Pathfinder Unchained.
And we're back to rogue bashing.
We all know the rogue is weak, and that the number of traps in a game is directly proportional to the number of trapfinding characters (no rogues, the GM will probably skip traps, have rogues, the GM will include traps so the rogues don't feel left out)
What I'm looking for is reasons to love the rogue. Favorite builds, favorite memories, favorite mechanics or archetypes that only the rogue can have.
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That's the problem all the mechanics of the rogue have been handed out to every classes out there and they didn't even get anything to compensate for it.
To be fair tho, if you do a corebook only game, limited sources, Rogues still feel somewhat unique. With all the sources allowed, everything you want to do as a rogue, you can do it with another class.
One cool thing tho...as the rogue, you usually make up for that weakness by actually being more involved in a roleplaying way. Usually most people I have seen play rogues, tend to often think outside of the box and have the dm comes up with various judgement calls, which is fun.
I love the rogue! But I typically play it in other systems.
If you want to boost the rogue make more dynamic trap encounters.
Also make sure that your adventures reduce rocket tag. If a party has a 15 minute work day. The caster using spells to deal with traps is no big deal. Make them miss that wasted spell slot on something the rogue can do for free.
This post is based on two false suppositions.
First, that trapfinding is both unique to rogues and the only aspect of a rogue that matters: Many other classes can gain access to it in some form or another, there's a trait for it too. Beyond that, even if we did ignore those other options, this solution only creates needless tokenism, where you have to bring the rogue along to deal with the thing, rather than having a rogue because of some meaningful value he actually has (also creates the issue of forcing you to have a rogue if you're in a campaign that relies on those mechanics).
Second, that a caster can only invalidate the rogue with a 15 minute workday. I'm not really sure where the "15 minute day" meme started around here, but it's largely silliness.
I am well aware that trap finding is not unique to rogues. I have not been under a rock for 5 years of Ninjas, Slayers and so on. The trait is for a specific campaign so not likely to be used outside of that campaign without special consideration. Traps however are part of the original rogue legacy skill set. My point is that when traps and puzzles were at one point in time far more integral to adventure design than they are currently. Classes with trap finding are "better than rogues" because they do more be it better damage, more spells or other abilities that the rogues don't have. Go back read 1st and 2nd Edition adventures. Traps were more common varied widely (were not just hp taxes) and there were few ways to deal with them without a rogue.
The issue with the 15 minute work day comes into play when casters start running out of spells. I have been in games where running out of spells was an issue and when they were not. When resting or recovering after a major fight was more often than a normal day. Spell slots were more precious. Being able to keep them around for a Cure or other usage is helpful.
What I'm looking for is reasons to love the rogue.
There aren't any based on the class itself, though. The concept is a fun one, I have a few "Rogues" I really enjoy, but the Rogue class itself I have no memories that wouldn't have been possible with a non-Rogue.
I love playing "Rogues", I just don't do it with the rogue class, or at most a small dip like my arcane tricksters.
Now arcane tricksters, thats a rogue for you!
I still like them. Aside from the two builds listed, I've got a burglar I want to play as well who specializes in sapping people (sap master + can use Bluff to cover a failed Stealth check). and breaking and entering (better trap disarming.) It will take a game where 'breaking and entering and ambushes' isn't a dirty phrase that leaves the party fighter with nothing to do, but it's a kind of game I'd love to play.
So why do either of those require Rogue specifically?
I really like rogues though I think the niche is best fit by the slayer at this point.
I think the knife master is great I have not had chance to play one but I envision a catfolk or dexy fighter dancing around the battle field switching between twf melee and throwing.
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So why do either of those require Rogue specifically?
Because he does both better than anyone; only the rogue gets archetypes that double their trapsense bonuses and allow them to not trip traps unless they fail the check by 10 or more, and only the rogue gets an archetype that lets him use a Bluff check to cover a failed Stealth check, and only the rogue and (one alchemist archetype) get enough sneak attack dice that a maximized (with the underhanded talent) top level sap with Sap Master would deal 160 in precision damage alone.
There are a lot of things the rogue does better than virtually anyone else, the problem is the rogue's playstyle is actually set at odds with the other classes; generally speaking, the rogue only shines when the rest of the party is sitting on their haunches waiting for him to finish his roguey-thing. The real reason the slayer, investigator, etc., excel over the rogue is they can do those things without sacrificing combat potential, while the rogue does such things better than anyone at the cost of his combat potential, meaning for a rogue to truly shine he usually must split the party. Give me a city game full of intrigue, breaking and entering, and avoiding combats with clever tricks and I'll show you how a rogue shines, but give me nothing but smash and grab combats and I'll wish I'd picked another class.
Such is not a declaration that the rogue isn't underpowered, just that the reason traps have become such a non-issue and stealth tactics are usually not employed as the primary tactic in most modern games is that people are tired of splitting the party for the rogue to shine. There ARE things the rogues does better than anyone, he just needs a party full of skill users for the rest of the players to not resent him for it. Such has been my experience, at least.
D&D has always had a stealth problem. I would love to see it fixed. I suppose silence could be used but the stealth approach (which our group always tries) lasts until the first enemy that needs to be taken down. Occaisionally you will get a player who likes scouting and uses it to scout not get into trouble.
So why do either of those require Rogue specifically?Because he does both better than anyone; only the rogue gets archetypes that double their trapsense bonuses
Which will never come into play if you are going for (as was your stated goal) "better trap disarming".
and allow them to not trip traps unless they fail the check by 10 or more
Which likewise is barely relevant considering how ridiculously easy trap disarming is. You already don't set it off unless you fail by 5 or more, so at any given level beyond 3rd or so as long as you're investing, it's a non-issue.
and only the rogue gets an archetype that lets him use a Bluff check to cover a failed Stealth check
Which is pretty neat, but not necessary for the concept, and seems odd to gimp yourself in other areas for just this benefit.
and only the rogue and (one alchemist archetype) get enough sneak attack dice that a maximized (with the underhanded talent) top level sap with Sap Master would deal 160 in precision damage alone.
And the Ninja. Both of which all still all around superior.
There are a lot of things the rogue does better than virtually anyone else, the problem is the rogue's playstyle is actually set at odds with the other classes; generally speaking, the rogue only shines when the rest of the party is sitting on their haunches waiting for him to finish his roguey-thing. The real reason the slayer, investigator, etc., excel over the rogue is they can do those things without sacrificing combat potential, while the rogue does such things better than anyone at the cost of his combat potential, meaning for a rogue to truly shine he usually must split the party. Give me a city game full of intrigue, breaking and entering, and avoiding combats with clever tricks and I'll show you how a rogue shines, but give me nothing but smash and grab combats and I'll wish I'd picked another class.
You may show how a Rogue "shines" but you still won't show how he does it better than those other classes in anything but minuscule, extremely narrow ways.
Seriously, "Wow, he has a +6 higher Reflex save versus traps only which is completely worthless because of his other in-class benefits which let him find and disable that trap easily in the first place! Yay!".
Stuff
Wow, you really seem to be missing my admission that the rogue is, in fact, underpowered. I agree with everything you're saying, you just keep talking to me as if I'm arguing something with you.
The problem I have is that you hold up these weird corner things as something worthwhile that the Rogue can do, when they're really not.
People pretending to like these options is probably why no Rogue options released ever are actually better than them.
Anyone can use bluff to stealth...
The purpose of this thread is to discuss those weird corner things. That's why it's called "A Little Love for the Rogue".
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Anyone can use bluff to stealth...
Not to re-roll a failed opposed check, they can't. The specific Burglar archetype power he's talking about is actually quite potent if your DM handwaves the rule that it only works for sound-based stealth checks (the one time in frikkin Pathfinder that Stealth is differentiated back into Hide and MS and it is used to screw the Rogue out of a potentially great power).
Getting to automatically re-roll failed rolls is always very powerful, especially if that re-roll targets a different opposed check, as is the case with the Distract ability. The meat and bones of that ability was actually a great idea, but like everything else with the PF Rogue, RAW, it ended up being stillborn.
Well, that and the fact that Stealth and stealth-based tactics, in general, become completely worthless at high levels when monsters with exotic senses become a normal thing. So yeah...bring back Darkstalker. Making the Rogue at least the master of stealth again would be a good start.
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Trapfinding as the Rogue's raison d'être is just sad. Better would be to simply make Find Magical Traps a feat available to everyone (and if you want to be realistic, give it the ability to use Detect Magic as a prereq) and completely do away with the idea that the party needs a Rogue to find traps because...red box.
This might spur someone to come up with a reason for the Rogue's existence beyond traps. Maybe...
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Reasons to love the Rogue are numerous. Let me name a few...Odysseus, Bilbo Baggins, Artemis Entreri, Aladdin, The Grey Mouser, Batman, Snake...
Can't think of too many reasons to love the Pathfinder Rogue, though.
Pathfinder unchained should rename the rogue to a thief again so no PC but who cares lets drop the PC thing. My favorite thing about the rogue in pathfinder has to be the talents such amusing talents.
To add something positive to the topic:
The Rogue surprise-round talents/archetype abilities can actually end up being quite powerful in combination, allowing an almost AD&D feel to the Rogue as a swift and deadly combatant who can open combat by dropping an enemy before he even knew the Rogue was there:
Bandit Archetype:
- Ambush ability: you can now take a swift, move and standard action in the surprise round
Knife Master Archetype (this and Bandit can be combined):
- Sneak Stab: d8 sneak attack damage with knives
Talents:
- Surprise Attack: Opponents always flat-footed in the surprise round
- Underhanded: sneak attack damage maximized in the surprise round if the opponent can't see the weapon being used.
Equipment:
- Wrist Sheath, Spring Loaded: allows the drawing of a concealed weapon as a swift action
Dip:
1 level - Wizard (Divination, Foresight School)
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What do you end up with? A character who gets big initiative bonuses (+1 from Divination school power, familiar +4 if you want, and the ability to cast Heightened Awareness on yourself), always acts in the surprise round (Divination ability), gets a full round's worth of actions (Ambush) in the surprise round, can draw a dagger as a swift action (Sheath), and gets maximized d8 sneak attack damage during the surprise round with any concealed knife he's carrying.
This will buy you either:
- the ability to close with and make a single nasty attack against a soft target in any surprise round, even if it is your party that got surprised. May be best combined with Spring Attack (wow...a use for Spring Attack?!) and Boots of Striding and Springing to keep you from being surrounded in the following round...and you don't have Uncanny Dodge, so yeah, good luck if you do get surrounded.
or
- maximized d8 sneak attacks up to your full-attack (which is absolutely brutal if you're into TWF and have two spring-loaded sheathes) against a single target if you get the drop on him (*note: technically, this requires that your DM hand-wave the Ambush text, which says you can take a swift, move and standard, but not specifically a full-round action...sadface). This can get up to a heck of a lot of damage. An 12th level Diviner 1/Rogue 11, for example, is doing 48 points of SA damage per attack in the surprise round with this combination of abilities. This is enough to drop even heavy hitters if you can hit on iterative attacks with TWF.
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Assuming you could get DM-approval for use of a full attack in the surprise round with Ambush, this would be a Pathfinder Rogue I'd actually like to play...getting back to the good old days when a high level Rogue could just end you in a single round if he got his backstab in. It annoys me that one has to jump through as many hoops as this build takes to generate that kind of SA damage (and even then...pending DM approval), but it has the potential to be very powerful in the hands of a properly sneaky player.
Assuming you could get DM-approval for use of a full attack in the surprise round with Ambush
"Assuming your GM houserules your abilities, the Rogue can be pretty good". It's not an interpretation, it's a straight up house rule. And if your GM houserules that you can trade a move+standard for a full round action, a Valet familiar and the Lookout feat does pretty much the same at a much lower price.
Well...the full attack was the single biggest mistake of 3rd ed. D&D, but I'm trying to be positive here. With a small amount of massaging of the rules, you can, in theory, make a Rogue whose ability to "backstab" someone is actually scary again.
But yes, point taken; Rogue sucks; next topic.
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I don't think think the Rogue class sucks. It can be improved. Sneak attack require one to be in melee. Which is a sure way to get the Rogue killed off. Or one had s very generous DM. It's the same reason if I play a Investigator I'm not going to use his version of sneak attack, it requires a very specific build to make a melee Rogue viable IMO. Another issue is that in terms of skills they don't have anything that really stands out. Or anything that in general really makes them given stand out. I'm currently playing a Archeologist Bard archetype. I get ghe best of both worlds minus sneak attack.
I do think that if ranged sneak attacks weren't so limited, I would wanna play a Rogue more. Be a shortbow sniper of some kind. Any system-wide changes will just buff the Rouge Alternatives as well, though.
I can't remember the FAQ, but it has been officially stated that getting to take a swift, a move, and a standard action does mean you can take a full-round action as well.
As for ranged sneak attacks, it is something you can do, you just need either A. the scout archetype, or B. to snipe from Stealth (I've heard there's still some debate about whether being hidden counts as being invisible RAW vs RAI, but I've never met a GM or designer that didn't say it did.)
That's why I've got the scout sniper build above as my take on how to do that well. I've also got two builds in the back of my head that would play with the sniping mechanic: a knifemaster and another sniper, both of which take ludicrous amounts of Terrain Mastery talents just to see what's possible with unbeatable Stealth. Especially once the rogue can take Hide in Plain Sight a few times past 10th level, I'm curious to see what could be exploited from a Stealthmancer.
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So...
The point of this was to say "hey, I like rogues," but very few have...
Sad day.
I've wanted to play a scout/rake combo. Seemed like it would be funny to run up to someone, sneak attack them, and demoralize them all in one pass. Then just smile and charm their pants off.
I can't remember the FAQ, but it has been officially stated that getting to take a swift, a move, and a standard action does mean you can take a full-round action as well.
I wish you had a link to that. If that's really the case, then anything that gets a weapon out as a free action (and there are a number of ways as far as I can tell...depending on one's interpretation of the conditions of the Underhanded feat) would allow for full-attack, maximized d8 Sneak Attack brutality (finish him!) and make that sort of Rogue pretty scary in surprise rounds, which is, for my money, where the Rogue ought to shine.
You know...like an assassin who kills you by mangling your hit points rather than by trying some crappy, low-DC, grandma's-little-necromancer death effect.
The only love rogues deserve is sarcastic love.
Here's another one I love that's rogue-only:
Teddy "Fast Fingers"
Archetypes: cutpurse/burglar
Race:Human (focused study, heart of the streets)
Feats and Rogue Talents:
1: skill focus (bluff), combat expertise
2: improved feint
3: gang up
4: honeyed words
5: power attack
6: fast fingers, fast getaway
7: furious focus
8: skill focus (Stealth), face in the crowd
9: greater feint
10: skill mastery
Optional Feats: twinned feint, cleave, greater cleave, offensive defense, ki pool/vanishing trick. Use these to replace gang up, greater feint, fast getaway, or face in the crowd as your party dynamic requires.
Weapon of Choice: heavy mace
Archetype Powers: The cutpurse/bandit gets to make Bluff checks to cover failed Stealth checks AND failed Sleight of Hand checks. This means with Skill Focus (Bluff) and honeyed words, you'll be hard-pressed to get caught at either activity.
The cutpurse can also do something no other character can: use sleight of hand to take something in combat. Through Stab and Grab, so long as he's in a position to sneak attack (Gang Up or Vanishing Trick helping out with that), he can take a full-round action to attack and roll a Sleight of Hand check to steal something. However, unlike the Steal combat maneuver which is against their CMD, Sleight of Hand always has a static DC of 20 (the opposed check is only to determine if you're detected in the attempt). This means, reliably and without sacrificing an attack to do so, the cutpurse can easily steal:
- the wizard's spell pouch
- the enemy's magic amulet
- the alchemist's portable kit
- any other important magic item the enemy is wearing/carrying
Finally, while the burglar's better trap disarming is only half as effective without trapfinding, in some ways it helps out the cutpurse more than a straight rogue; after all, without trapfinding the rogue is much more likely to fail a DIsable Device check, and this protects him in such an eventuality.
Combat Style: Teddy feints his opponents before dealing a powerful two-handed hit. Greater Feint means that anyone else in the party with sneak attack can slaughter anyone Teddy successfully feinted (this is where rapid shot rogues and slayers come into play) and if you take the optinoal Twinned Feint and Cleave feats, Teddy himself can turn into a powerful room-sweeper. The fact that he's two-handing a one-handed weapon means he can easily switch his hold when performing a Stab and Grab.
Actually, that just made me think of some more fun ones:
Gang Leader
Archetype: Thug
Race: Half-Elf (alt. favored class bonus adds 1/2 level to bluff checks)
Feats and Rogue Talents:
1: combat expertise, skill focus (bluff)
2: combat trick (improved feint)
3: twinned feint
4: offensive defense
5: cleave
6: befuddling strike
7: enforcer
8: honeyed words
9: greater feint
Weapon of Choice: sap
Playstyle: Perfect for leading a team of sneak attackers, the Gang Leader uses twinned feint and his ludicrous Bluff skill (skill focus + 1/2 level to feint + honeyed words) to disable two opponents a round so his allies can sneak attack them at will. If both those opponents are adjacent, he can cleave both of them, using offensive defense and befuddling strike to tank them with his ludicrous AC, (for even more ac, give him shield proficiency and a magical heavy shield). He also disables each opponent sneak attacked by making them both shaken AND sickened, which adds a -4 penalty to all their rolls, which is quite disabling.
I got lots of love for rogues. Roleplay wise they are tons of fun.
I cry when I see how they got shafted by a combination of changes in the play style of the game combined with selective nostalgia and niche protection.
Once upon a time when rogues were still called thieves, traps could kill characters outright if not wipe entire parties. Back then character death was considered normal and gameplay was much more roguelike than collaborative story telling.
Then things changed, the game became more about the story and character death became unfun badwrong. So traps became less deadly, more of an inconvenience really. But selective nostalgia of rogues saving the party from deadly traps got them assigned the niche of trap monkey. This selective nostalgia also gave them sneak attack which is one of their few saving graces, but it is still all but useless at range (because ranged combat is the ranger's niche and you can't be better at it than they are). But then because it gives them fairly consistent DPS selective nostalgia is used again to demand it be nerfed (because get back in your niche trap monkey).
I still love playing rogues despite all of this. If anything I hate how they get marginalized and when playing a rogue I refuse to be shoved into the corner.
We all agree with you. The problem is I actually like such rogue-focused game styles, I'm just apparently the only one.
Still, I love them, and there's a bunch of 3rd-party products out there that fix their problems if you don't mind going outside core.
Last fun build of the day:
The Roomsweeper
Archetypes: Swashbuckler/Scout (proficiency w/ halberd)
Race: Half-orc
Feats and Rogue Talents
1: open (pick whatever you like)
2: power attack
3: furious focus
4: cleave
5: surprise follow-through
6: offensive defense
7: great cleave
8: bleeding strike
9: improved surprise follow-through
10: cleaving finish
11: improved cleaving finish
Weapon of Choice: Halberd
Playstyle: When a Scout moves, it only gets sneak attack against the first opponent (i.e., you cannot combine cleave with a scout's power). However, the half-orc gets a series of feats that make all those he cleaves into lose their Dex bonus to AC. This combines to mean the Roomsweeper can move 10 ft and make an attack against as many creatures as he can via greater cleave and improved cleaving finish, and every single one of them is a sneak attack.
Combine with Lunge and an item of Enlarge Person for even more roomsweeping fun.
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I like rogues for the mechanics. Specifically, the ones that make it suck. Why? Because it means that I can optimize as much as I wish without worrying about being OP in comparison to others at similar levels.
Since we are comparing builds, here's something I've been working on
Str10
Dex18
Con15
Int14
Wis12
Cha7
Feats:
1:Improved Unarmed Strike
1:Stunning Fist
1:Pummeling Style
1:Weapon Finesse
1:Two-Weapon Fighting
2:Pummeling Charge
3:Enforcer
4:Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)
5:Sap Adept
6:Offensive Defense
7:Dazzling Display
8:Combat Trick(Sap Master)
9:Shatter Defenses
Playstyle:Doesn't really start hitting hard until about level 6, but gets sneak attack on all pummeling attacks, can "full attack" on a charge(that automatically gets sneak attack), gets a nice AC buff when sneak attacking, and can throw around some nice debuffs (Shaken, Flat-footed v. you, and Sickened, with a chance of frightened).
Put your first level in Con, as you will need as much HP as you can possibly get. Then go Dex all the way. Pick up an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, and some Brawling armor(Mithral Breastplate if you have Armor Expert, or Mithral Chainshirt if not) ASAP. Brawling is more valuable, because no matter how much damage you add on to an attack, if you miss you do squat.
i'm actually unsure how unchained will fix the rogue in PFS.
usually paizo's one-off "let's placate the customers and try something actually good and never touch it again" material is barred from their most popular houserule setup.
might be cool for home games, but if they bork it in unchained, don't expect it to get fixed (because again, they don't go back to their one-off material).
to keep from being a COMPLETE negative nancy:
"iconic" rogue:
(rog 6 / HW 3 / rog +11)
START: str 10, dex 17 (7+2r), con 14 (5), int 13 (3), wis 10, cha 14 (5)
FINISH: str 16, dex 32, con 20, int 20, wis 16, cha 20
+5 dex (level), +6 all (gear), +4 dex, +1 int (book/wish)
traits: trapfinder / militia
rogue talents:
2 - Combat Trick (Dervish Dance) - proficiency in scimitar given by swash AT
4 - Trap Spotter
6 - Minor Magic (Detect Magic)
11 - combat trick (Arcane Strike)
13* - Feat (Dimensional Savant)
15* - Opportunist
17* - Skill Mastery (acrobatics, disable device, [face skill], perception, sense motive, stealth)
19* - Improved Evasion
feats:
1 - Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (stealth)
3 - Endurance
5 - Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 1)
7 - Hellcat Stealth
8 - Skill Focus (perception)
9 - Dimensional Agility
11 - Dimensional Assault
13 - Dimensional Dervish
15 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 9)
16 - Skill Focus (UMD)
17 - Dampen Presence
19 - ???
while not pure rogue, he gets dex-to-damage at level 2, HiPS in the light (7th) and dark (15th, and even from blindsense/sight WAY later), can find/break magical traps, and can flank with himself at 13th (end of PFS, but hey). grab a pair of 'boots of soft step' and a bunch of 'oils of negate aroma' and you're invisible to tremorsense and scent (respectively) as well.
he also fills the dextrous/intelligent/charismatic headcanons for rogues.
i'm trying to find a spot to squeeze in Steadfast Personality (sometime in 5-9th level) to shore up his will saves--and put that cha investment to more use than EH prereqs--but so far he's looking alright.
I enjoy Rogue dips to gain some of their specialties, and I enjoy looking to make Sneak attack viable through non-traditional ways. Rogue has always been a class where, when I mixed it with another class or three liberally, the combined elements would be martially amazing.
My favorite Rogue build is a theory more then a practiced one; but it's a Rogue that accesses the Shattered Defenses chain with a bow, SNap Shot chain, and Thug Rogue. One the first round of combat, using Dazzling Display (Sometimes to even Frighten someone instead of Shaken.), then spreading sneak attacks with rapid shot, and snap shot, or laying down fire one one unfortunate soul.
Hell, it wasn't a sniper sneak; it's a bold battlefield dominator challenging his enemies with psychology.
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Well some positive stuffs:
Ratfolks are considered flanking when they are in the same square, so you can technically sneak attack every round with a ratfolk rogue partner from their swarming racial ability. It can only work if you have a friend who wants to work with you, but that would be the point if you go a teamwork feat type of build.
Other option would be to use the leadership feat, to have a ratfolk rogue bro, if it is allowed in your campaign, sneak attack all day.
Aoe could technically be your biggest issues but you can probably manage if you take down the enemy with multiple sneak attacks from your bro.