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This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
Now if used by a Kasatha a being with Multi-Arms (Four in this case) how many off-hand attacks can the Kasatha make each round?
I would say 4, but at a penalty of -4/-4/-4/-4 to the BAB.
If all are light weapons reduce this to all -2. Can we get a Dev to just make a quick comment on this?
Please FAQ
Be prepared for the crapstorm that's coming, I had a similar question. It didn't turn out helpful. You'll get all kinds of answers. My best advice is to talk with your DM.
Oh I know, got into this on another thread.
If it was my game I'd say that looks right.
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This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
Now if used by a Kasatha a being with Multi-Arms (Four in this case) how many off-hand attacks can the Kasatha make each round?
I would say 4, but at a penalty of -4/-4/-4/-4 to the BAB.
If all are light weapons reduce this to all -2. Can we get a Dev to just make a quick comment on this?Please FAQ
You have one primary hand and three off-hands. So you could make four attacks, three of which would be off-hand attacks.
By your interpretation, multi-weapon functions no differently than two-weapon fighting. With this FAQ, you can already attack with any weapon your wielding without having to designate which hand is primary or off-hand. Two-weapon fighting merely lowers the penalty for making an extra attack with your off-hand. As pointed out in the FAQ, any hand can be your off-hand. There is no need for a separate feat to lower the penalty for each hand.
"Hands" calculate the number of attacks a creature can make in a single iteration. Otherwise, multiweapon fighting would not exist.
The ruling Calth speaks of is about using no-handed weapons (Kobold tail attachments, armor spikes, dwarven boulder helmets, etc) in conjunction with a two-handed weapon. It is technically legal, but does not qualify for two-weapon fighting, meaning the normal attack penalties (-6/-10) apply to the attacks and the attack routine cannot benefit from improved or greater TWF. Since they are no-handed attacks, they also do not qualify for multiweapon fighting, meaning the -6/-10 is unavoidable (and therefore, really not worth trying to build around). The same can apply to dual-wielding two-handed weapons, due to needing to be able to wield a weapon in one's off-hand to qualify for TWF.
For the Kasatha example, yes. You get 1 main-hand attack and 3 off-hand attacks.
So could a Kasatha attack with all four arms in the same round? Just at a penalty of -4 to all.
Show me a rule that says multi-armed races get extra attacks. You can't, because one doesn't exist. The number of attacks a PC can make is independent of the number of arms it has.
Multi-Armed: A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands. It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands.
Please quote the place where a creature only ever gets 2 attacks regardless of number of limbs.
The penalties depend on the category of the off hand weapon and your idea is.legal per RAI. There us even an official Pathfinder monster that follows my interpretation. I do agree that per RAW it is questionable but most people play by RAI and RAW has quiet a few problems in various areas of the game .
I want a dev to post to this one way or another. Because if all it does is reduce penalties for attacks you cant take anyway then it is pointless and has merit at all.
Also i kinda want to see if Calth's head explodes if it comes off that you can. Lol
Anyway my two cents. If its for beings outside the norm then i say it works just like twf except it grants one extra off hand per extra limb. After all it is a feat meant for the exception not the rule.
A pc doesnt have multiple offhand attacks, it only has one, otherwise you could do almost unlimited unarmed strikes.
Offhand Head
Offhand left hand
Offhand right leg
Offhand left leg
...Offhand crotch
That's why the feat multiweapon fighting is measured in "hands." You get one attack for every hand.
Nothing in the Kasatha rule says anything about gaining attacks. Nada.
From the combat rules:
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.Notice that you only gain one extra attack. There is no Multi-Weapon Fighting rule. Doesn't exist. In order to get extra attacks, you need to show a rule that grants them to you, that's how the rules system works.
I should have figured you'd refuse to accept that. How about you explain away every monster that can attack with 3+ manufactured weapons. I'll even get you started:
Ubue: Can make 3 club attacks, has 3 arms, and has multiweapon fighting.
Four-armed Mudra Skeleton: 4 short sword attacks or 4 claw attacks. Has 4 arms and multiweapon fighting.
Marilith: Uses 6 weapons in a full attack action, has 6 arms and uses multiweapon fighting.
It's quite clear that there is a correlation between number of hands and gaining attacks for having them. It's why the rules on Vestigial Arm are so clear about not adding extra attacks; it's overwriting the general rule of 1 hand = 1 attack.
Man this is like déjà vu to my thread. Let me sum the rest of the arguments; NPCs are different, NPCs don't work as written, a few more yes huhs and nuhuhs.
Now I do remember a rule on limbs used though like you can't mace and elbow with the same arm.
As I said earlier ask your DM it's better that way.
I am in the actual hands give more offhand crowd though.
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That's why the feat multiweapon fighting is measured in "hands." You get one attack for every hand.
False, you don´t.
Many multihanded pcs get multiple hands they dont get an attack per hand. Most notably the alchemist.
It's quite clear that there is a correlation between number of...
Dont compare monsters and pcs, monsters are not pcs.
A hydra is not a pc. A Sorcerer dragon is not a pc. Apples are apples.
Why, at level 1, can I wield a weapon in either hand and get two attacks as a full attack? Because I am holding two weapons. In my two hands. If I naturally had more than two hands (not counting vestigial arm, because its rules are specific), I could wield more than two weapons, and I would get more attacks. The logic is pretty simple. You get one attack per weapon. If you have x amount of hands, each wielding a weapon, you get x amount of attacks.
Man this is like déjà vu to my thread. Let me sum the rest of the arguments; NPCs are different, NPCs don't work as written, a few more yes huhs and nuhuhs.
Now I do remember a rule on limbs used though like you can't mace and elbow with the same arm.
As I said earlier ask your DM it's better that way.
I am in the actual hands give more offhand crowd though.
There is no PC and NPC tag for creatures. If. PC anf NPC are the same creature then they follow the same rules.
However PC vs NPC is not the topic. More than one pathfinder monster has several off hand attacks due to having multiple arms. The RAI is not hard to figure out.
HeHere is one example. [url=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rhis&page=4?Does-this-26-punches-pummeling-style-work#182]click me[\url].
False, you don´t.
Many multihanded pcs get multiple hands they dont get an attack per hand. Most notably the alchemist.
Dont compare monsters and pcs, monsters are not pcs.
A hydra is not a pc. A Sorcerer dragon is not a pc. Apples are apples.
Oh really? What multihanded PC example do you have that explicitly disallows additional attacks with manufactured weapons which isn't the Vestigial Arm discovery? Just remember that it must add a hand (so no Tentacles). Also, why would Vestigial Arm state in its description it does not grant additional attacks unless it was the exception to the rule?
As to trying to disassociate monsters from PCs, they both follow the same rules, the order being specific trumps general. If a monster breaks a general rule, it has to have an explicit override stating why or how it's doing so. This is usually shown as an extraordinary/supernatural ability, through feats, or a statement of additional rules. None of those monsters I've linked has a statement in any of those forms that they can make additional manufactured weapon attacks beyond the supposed "maximum" capacity of 2.
Hydras use natural attacks and can be emulated through summoners or primal companion hunters (to a limit). Dragons are stated as knowing/casting spells equal to a sorcerer of X level, it's just an added feature for dragons.
By your interpretation, multi-weapon functions no differently than two-weapon fighting. With this FAQ, you can already attack with any weapon your wielding without having to designate which hand is primary or off-hand. Two-weapon fighting merely lowers the penalty for making an extra attack with your off-hand. As pointed out in the FAQ, any hand can be your off-hand. There is no need for a separate feat to lower the penalty for each hand.
omg i couldn't find this FAQ before :/ thank you.
Why, at level 1, can I wield a weapon in either hand and get two attacks as a full attack? Because I am holding two weapons. In my two hands. If I naturally had more than two hands (not counting vestigial arm, because its rules are specific), I could wield more than two weapons, and I would get more attacks. The logic is pretty simple. You get one attack per weapon. If you have x amount of hands, each wielding a weapon, you get x amount of attacks.Incorrect. You get two attacks with a full attack from the rule I quoted earlier. It specifically grants one attack. It has nothing to do with having two hands.
To all the people saying that arms grant attacks, what happens with a PC that has 0 arms? Are they no longer allowed to make attacks using non-hand wielded weapons?
Again: There is no rule in the game granting attacks based on number of limbs. It doesn't exist. Rule whatever you want in your home games, but for the general rules that exist extra arms don't add extra manufactured weapon attacks.
RAW blink dogs and Nagas should not be able to cast spells. The rules are RAI otherwise RAW would trump the FAQ since the FAQ only provides intent. Is there a rule saying "if you have more hands you get more attacks"? No there isn't . Are there monsters that demonstrate the lack of such a statement does not prevent the creatures from getting their extra attacks? Yes.
Since the listed monsters dont have a specific rules exception either it is intended for them to work that way or all of those monsters are mistakes that never got corrected.I think you know the intent but since the RAW and RAI don't match up it annoys you.
That is not how the Pathfinder rules system works. We don't need a rule that says you don't get extra attacks, you need a rule that says you do. And it doesn't exist.False, you don´t.
Many multihanded pcs get multiple hands they dont get an attack per hand. Most notably the alchemist.
Dont compare monsters and pcs, monsters are not pcs.
A hydra is not a pc. A Sorcerer dragon is not a pc. Apples are apples.
Oh really? What multihanded PC example do you have that explicitly disallows additional attacks with manufactured weapons which isn't the Vestigial Arm discovery? Just remember that it must add a hand (so no Tentacles). Also, why would Vestigial Arm state in its description it does not grant additional attacks unless it was the exception to the rule?
but that's the point the game as a specific rule mentions that you do not gain additional attacks, the only reason to mention it, is if it is overriding a general rule.
Okay now it's my time to get back into this. From the race builder section the mulitarmed trait says that you pick a main hand and all others are offhand.
Multi-Armed (4 RP)
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race possess three arms. A member of this race can wield multiple weapons, but only one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands. It can also use its hands for other purposes that require free hands.
Special: This trait can be taken up to twice. When it is taken a second time, the race gains a fourth arm.
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Oh really? What multihanded PC example do you have that explicitly disallows additional attacks with manufactured weapons which isn't the Vestigial Arm discovery? Just remember that it must add a hand (so no Tentacles). Also, why would Vestigial Arm state in its description it does not grant additional attacks unless it was the exception to the rule?
For clarity. And to prevent dubious interpretations such as yours.
The best Example is Human
A human with 2 arms, and and a kick.
Main hand kick. Offhand left arm, offhand right hand
By your interpretation of the rules a lvl1 human commoner can make up to 3 unarmed attacks
As to trying to disassociate monsters from PCs, they both follow the same rules, the order being specific trumps general.
Are you noticing how you are contradicting yourself? A monster is not a pc because it doesnt follow the same rules of a pc since its has its own features, attacks , etc.
By implying a monster can thrump regular rules you are disqualifying them as example of the regular rules|
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Okay now it's my time to get back into this. From the race builder section the mulitarmed trait says that you pick a main hand and all others are offhand.
Multi-Armed (4 RP)
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race possess three arms. A member of this race can wield multiple weapons, but only one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands. It can also use its hands for other purposes that require free hands.
Special: This trait can be taken up to twice. When it is taken a second time, the race gains a fourth arm.
You can have an unlimted quantity of off hands. It doesnt give you any more attacks than what you have. You still have one offhand attack.
On the same vein. You can have armor spikes, unarmed strike, shield bash, etc. All are off hand attacks, but you can only make one of them normally
Again: There is no rule in the game granting attacks based on number of limbs. It doesn't exist. Rule whatever you want in your home games, but for the general rules that exist extra arms don't add extra manufactured weapon attacks.
You are correct in the sense that attacks are not based on the number of limbs but rather the number of primary hands and off-hands. Your standard PC races only have one primary and one off-hand, but the standard PC races are not the only races out there. As a general rule, multi-armed creatures have one primary hand but can have multiple off-hands. This is demonstrated here...
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
here...
Multi-Armed (Ex) A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands. It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands.
and here...
Multi-Armed (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race possess three arms. A member of this race can wield multiple weapons, but only one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands. It can also use its hands for other purposes that require free hands. Special: This trait can be taken up to twice. When it is taken a second time, the race gains a fourth arm.
For clarity. And to prevent dubious interpretations such as yours.
The best Example is Human
A human with 2 arms, and and a kick.
Main hand kick. Offhand left arm, offhand right handBy your interpretation of the rules a lvl1 human commoner can make up to 3 unarmed attacks
I've stated multiple times that it's 1 attack per hand. Unless your human has a hand for a foot and is 1-legged, it's not getting 3 attacks from that. If anything, a kick is a no-handed attack, and I've already stated what happens when adding a no-handed attack to an attack routine (spoiler: the routine can't be used with either TWF or MWF, meaning full penalties).
Maybe I'm not being clear. It's seriously measured in hands. You can have an infinite amount of other limbs that can carry any number of weapons, but if they aren't ending in hands, you're not getting extra attacks from MWF because they're no-handed attacks.
Are you noticing how you are contradicting yourself? A monster is not a pc because it doesnt follow the same rules of a pc since its has its own features, attacks , etc. By implying a monster can thrump regular rules you are disqualifying them as example of the regular rules
I've stated everything follows general rules, PC or monster. Monsters that don't follow these general rules must have a written exception for each creature that supersedes a general rule. If a PC doesn't follow a general rule, there must be a written exception for that creature to supersede a general rule.
Since I'm clearly being misunderstood, I'll go back to your dragon example. Not every creature casts spells as a sorcerer. Therefore, to inform people that dragons do, a rule for dragons was made to overwrite the general rule that creatures don't.
The general rule in the case of multiweapon fighting is 1 hand = 1 attack. Vestigial Arm overwrites this general rule to inform people that PCs who take this discovery do not gain extra attacks even though extra hands are generated. All other cases (monster or PC) follow this general rule and do not overwrite it.
Oh really? What multihanded PC example do you have that explicitly disallows additional attacks with manufactured weapons which isn't the Vestigial Arm discovery? Just remember that it must add a hand (so no Tentacles). Also, why would Vestigial Arm state in its description it does not grant additional attacks unless it was the exception to the rule?For clarity. And to prevent dubious interpretations such as yours.
The best Example is Human
A human with 2 arms, and and a kick.
Main hand kick. Offhand left arm, offhand right handBy your interpretation of the rules a lvl1 human commoner can make up to 3 unarmed attacks
As to trying to disassociate monsters from PCs, they both follow the same rules, the order being specific trumps general.Are you noticing how you are contradicting yourself? A monster is not a pc because it doesnt follow the same rules of a pc since its has its own features, attacks , etc.
By implying a monster can thrump regular rules you are disqualifying them as example of the regular rules
I'm starting to think an unarmed strike is basically a double weapon, and thus is the best way to handle it. because I don't really see why except for a monk anyway, you should be able to TWF with an unarmed strike in general, your supposed to only have one. NOTE: this paragraph is opinion on how to handle and not a rules posit.
also you basically avoided the question posed by trying to obfuscate it with an unrelated issue.
"Also, why would Vestigial Arm state in its description it does not grant additional attacks unless it was the exception to the rule?"
A monster obeys the rules in every spot except where it states it specifically works another way. as has been mentioned, there are several entries that do not make mention of gaining additional attacks. to simply ignore that is a huge hole in your argument.
the problem with this whole argument is it is people fighting RAW versus RAI, and you only know RAI from serious forum digging.
Look up my last post, having multiple []off hands doesnt give you multiple [b]off hand attacks
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
Note that the Normal section of the feat explicitly states "attacks with all of it's off-hands."
Look up my last post, having multiple []off hands doesnt give you multiple [b]off hand attacks
not really founded anywhere in the rules, but sure, i can see why you think that.
to explain why not founded in the rules, off-hands only exist as part of TWF lingo. they don't mean anything if your not doing a TWF full attack action. so having additional off-hands is directly to reference wielding multiple weapons and use them as part of a full attack. as off-hands mean nothing else to any other part of the text.
Look up my last post, having multiple []off hands doesnt give you multiple [b]off hand attacksNote that the Normal section of the feat explicitly states "attacks with all of it's off-hands."Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
and do realize that the normal text is what happens when you do NOT have the feat.
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You get one attack for every hand.
Humans have 2 hands, by your interpretation, both get me an offhand attack. My main hand is my foot. Unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body. You are not following your own reasoning.
Now, i dont support your reasoning, this is a example of this reasoning applied to the game, obviously there are discrepancies since commoners dont have 3 unarmed strikes in the game.
As someone else mentioned, by your reasoning also a pc with no hands cant make unarmed attacks at all, which is also not true
Also I just found the monster entry for the kasatha
It doesnt have multiple attacks even tought he is a monk
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and do realize that the normal text is what happens when you do NOT have the feat.Look up my last post, having multiple []off hands doesnt give you multiple [b]off hand attacksNote that the Normal section of the feat explicitly states "attacks with all of it's off-hands."Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
Can you tell me what part specifies you can make multiple attacks by using this feat?
Actually only monks are able to use any part as an unarmed strike not everyone, even other IUS users.
Flurry can't be combined with anything and it's as two weapon fighting so unless the multiweapon feat auto replaces that ability he would be at big minuses when trying to multiarm flurry.
Made some edits.
You get one attack for every hand.Humans have 2 hands, by your interpretation, both get me an offhand attack. My main hand is my foot. Unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body. You are not following your own reasoning.
Now, i dont support your reasoning, this is a example of this reasoning applied to the game, obviously there are discrepancies since commoners dont have 3 unarmed strikes in the game.
As someone else mentioned, by your reasoning also a pc with no hands cant make unarmed attacks at all, which is also not true
Also I just found the monster entry for the kasatha
It doesnt have multiple attacks even tought he is a monk
Humans have two hands, giving them a primary hand and one off-hand. Referencing this FAQ, we note that they can designate any weapon they are capable of attacking with as a primary hand or an off-hand.
Can you tell me what part specifies you can make multiple attacks by using this feat?and do realize that the normal text is what happens when you do NOT have the feat.Look up my last post, having multiple []off hands doesnt give you multiple [b]off hand attacksNote that the Normal section of the feat explicitly states "attacks with all of it's off-hands."Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
You should look up the word all.
This is absolutely untrue.Actually only monks are able to use any part as an unarmed strike not everyone, even other IUS users.
Flurry can't be combined with anything.
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Can you tell me what part specifies you can make multiple attacks by using this feat?and do realize that the normal text is what happens when you do NOT have the feat.Look up my last post, having multiple []off hands doesnt give you multiple [b]off hand attacksNote that the Normal section of the feat explicitly states "attacks with all of it's off-hands."Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
that's just it, you don't gain attacks from using this feat, the NORMAL section shows that you already can.