I have been playing a hunter for a few games now and I am trying to find a area that they shine in. I enjoy the flavor and the concept of playing a tag team of tracker and his faithful animal companion but it seems that the summoner just dose it better. Hunters seem to be a weaker version of a summoner.
The goal of the hunter seems to be to focus around the animal companion and use your spells to buff him. It seems that a summoner can easily out do a hunter in this regard. let me do a quick comparison
Animal Companion d8HD 3/4HD and BAB Eidolon d10HD full HD and BAB
The hunter uses the druid and ranger spell list and uses the lower of the tow when determining what level a spell is.
the summoner uses his own that gets many fantastic spells a level lower that other casters. Spells like Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility and Stoneskin are lvl 4 for most classes but for summoner they are lvl 3.
The hunter gets Summon Nature's Ally only up to 6 at a slow progression.
The summoner gets Summon Monster all the way to 9 as well as gate.
Is there a archetype or a feat tree that hunter has access to that will give him some edged over a summoner?
Bear in mind you're comparing this to easily one of the most broken classes in the game to many.
With the hunter the pc is a better martial pc. The hunter has a few gems on his spell list with the ranger spell list getting them early.
Granted, the summoner is a stronger class but it's arguably one of the strongest classes in the game. The Hunter is a different beast all together but it a fine choice when compared to other 3/4 caster/bab classes.
Also some GM'S don't allow summoners.
Oh dang ninjad.
Bear in mind you're comparing this to easily one of the most broken classes in the game to many.
Noted.
If I was to pretend that the summoner dose not exist or I was bared from re-rolling as one then I would have no need to make this post but the summoner dose exist and I can play one.The hunter must at-least do something better than the summoner.
The druid has better spell casting and the ranger is more effective in martial combat (if not more than the Eidolon than at least more than the summoner ~shush synthesist don't exist~.)
also ninjad
Well going for pure optimization not really.
I recommend going summoning focused with summon good monster and all the monster summoning feats you can. Summon good monster is insanely powerful and makes a good spell so much more versatile and powerful.
Make your eidilon a scout/rogue
You focus on summons and then casting. Max charisma and play as a caster pretty much. If your gm allows Dazing Spell a lesser Dazing rod is cheap and wall of fire is a third level spell for you. You'll be able to end a lot of encounters before they start with that spell combo.
Huh, no wonder many GM'S ban summoners!
" but the summoner dose exist and I can play one."
I have played maybe ~2000 hours of pathfinder total through real life, PFS, Roll20, and cons, and I have NEVER seen a DM that was OK with playing the summoner. The only two DMs I have seen allow it massively house-ruled it, and did not allow archetypes.
In my personal experience, it doesn't exist, and you can't play one.
As a side note, ~snip~
Maybe your GM does allow you to play a summoner, though. Go ahead, play one. But don't whine when it makes half the classes in the game irrelevant. That's on you and your GM.
So no reason to play a hunter over a summoner other than most GMs don't allow summoners.
Well I played a master summoner in the GMs last campaign and things went ok. I don't particularly want to play a summoner again but I suppose I could just ignore all the summoning and focus on having a good melee flank buddy and put feats into making myself combat viable. seems like even without the summoning the summoner is still better.I'm more of a 50% power 50% flavor kinda guy and it seems the hunter is truly lacking in the power department.
A summoner isn't any worse than a druid or cleric, not even worse than any other 9-level caster. Will agree there spell list is jacked though. I honestly can't see why all the hate.
That said I love the hunter and the feat economy is awesome.
A summoner isn't any worse than a druid or cleric, not even worse than any other 9-level caster. Will agree there spell list is jacked though. I honestly can't see why all the hate.
That said I love the hunter and the feat economy is awesome.
Feat economy?
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Pure optimization point, the summoner wins, period. Probably wins almost all classes except may be fullcasters.
Now the hunter has an interesting but lackuster spell list. His animal companion is good but not a good as an eidolon. It does have a feeling of natural if you like that, plus the animal focus is useful.Remember hunters have divine spells and can use armor, also hunters are better archers in general, better bab means earlier combat feats
But yeah is really difficult to overpower the summoner.
" but the summoner dose exist and I can play one."
I have played maybe ~2000 hours of pathfinder total through real life, PFS, Roll20, and cons, and I have NEVER seen a DM that was OK with playing the summoner. The only two DMs I have seen allow it massively house-ruled it, and did not allow archetypes.
In my personal experience, it doesn't exist, and you can't play one.
As a side note, ~snip~
Maybe your GM does allow you to play a summoner, though. Go ahead, play one. But don't whine when it makes half the classes in the game irrelevant. That's on you and your GM.
So no reason to play a hunter over a summoner other than most GMs don't allow summoners.
Well I played a master summoner in the GMs last campaign and things went ok. I don't particularly want to play a summoner again but I suppose I could just ignore all the summoning and focus on having a good melee flank buddy and put feats into making myself combat viable. seems like even without the summoning the summoner is still better.I'm more of a 50% power 50% flavor kinda guy and it seems the hunter is truly lacking in the power department.
I'm not seeing that, I feel the hunter is exactly what you're talking about you want. A melee reach hunter with a good focus on the teamwork feats is very strong. If using the primal hunter archetype it's even more customizable.
Feat economy?A summoner isn't any worse than a druid or cleric, not even worse than any other 9-level caster. Will agree there spell list is jacked though. I honestly can't see why all the hate.
That said I love the hunter and the feat economy is awesome.
The hunter companion gets all of your teamwork feats.
One thing the hunter does much better is direct damage spells. While the druid list is not as good at blasting as a wizard it does have some decent area of affect damage spells. It also has entangle which as a first level spell. A hunter can lock down many opponents with this spell. The ranger spell list also has some decent self-buff spells the summoner does not have. Gravity bow and Lead Blades come to mind.
I would suggest instead of buffing your animal companion a better strategy would be to use some of your spells to attack or control the battle field.
The hunter also gets a lot better skills including the skill that will allow you to setup an ambush. Consider an archery focused hunter using stealth to get the drop on the opponent and casting entangle. Unless his opponent gets lucky the hunter is going to fill him full of arrows.
Also if there is an inquisitor in the party you can both swap your teamwork feats and your animal companion gets your teamwork feats. That means that there are 3 creatures that have the teamwork feat.
Pure optimization point, the summoner wins, period. Probably wins almost all classes except may be fullcasters.
Now the hunter has an interesting but lackuster spell list. His animal companion is good but not a good as an eidolon. It does have a feeling of natural if you like that, plus the animal focus is useful.Remember hunters have divine spells and can use armor, also hunters are better archers in general, better bab means earlier combat feats
But yeah is really difficult to overpower the summoner.
The summoner and hunter have the same HD and BAB if feats were spent the same they would make identically good archers one in medium armor one in light. Although I suppose a summoner would have to burn a feat for martial weapon proficiency with a longbow.
If the hunter had full bab or bonus combat feats that would be great but he doesn't...
Pure optimization point, the summoner wins, period. Probably wins almost all classes except may be fullcasters.
Now the hunter has an interesting but lackuster spell list. His animal companion is good but not a good as an eidolon. It does have a feeling of natural if you like that, plus the animal focus is useful.Remember hunters have divine spells and can use armor, also hunters are better archers in general, better bab means earlier combat feats
But yeah is really difficult to overpower the summoner.
I feel the companion is better and the spell list is better. I can also optimize the hunter companion easier mainly because of the free feats.
I feel the companion is better and the spell list is better. I can also optimize the hunter companion easier mainly because of the free feats.Pure optimization point, the summoner wins, period. Probably wins almost all classes except may be fullcasters.
Now the hunter has an interesting but lackuster spell list. His animal companion is good but not a good as an eidolon. It does have a feeling of natural if you like that, plus the animal focus is useful.Remember hunters have divine spells and can use armor, also hunters are better archers in general, better bab means earlier combat feats
But yeah is really difficult to overpower the summoner.
Wait what?
The 3/4 hd and bab animal is better than the eidolon and is easier to optimize than the creature you get to build from the ground up?Share with me oh shaman of the forests your secrets so that i may continue on the path of the hunter without regret or remorse.
lol yes because when it comes down to it I have a lot more ACs to chose from. Eidolon's have only 3 base forms worth using and I can get access to abilities ediolons can't ever get. Also with the primal hunter my AC is an AC with all the benefits of the eidolon.
Edit: Also in addition to my AC having more feats than your eidolon, the hunter is also built to fight with the AC not having it stand in front. I like both classes but if given the chance I'd pick the hunter over the summoner.
lol yes because when it comes down to it I have a lot more ACs to chose from. Eidolon's have only 3 base forms worth using and I can get access to abilities ediolons can't ever get. Also with the primal hunter my AC is an AC with all the benefits of the eidolon.
Edit: Also in addition to my AC having more feats than your eidolon, the hunter is also built to fight with the AC not having it stand in front. I like both classes but if given the chance I'd pick the hunter over the summoner.
OK perhaps my dissatisfaction with the hunter comes from my lack of expertise.
What kind of build would you use for yourself and the animal at say level 7?Spirit's Gift seems like a good feat to take at level 1.
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Pure optimization point, the summoner wins, period. Probably wins almost all classes except may be fullcasters.
Now the hunter has an interesting but lackuster spell list. His animal companion is good but not a good as an eidolon. It does have a feeling of natural if you like that, plus the animal focus is useful.Remember hunters have divine spells and can use armor, also hunters are better archers in general, better bab means earlier combat feats
But yeah is really difficult to overpower the summoner.
The summoner and hunter have the same HD and BAB if feats were spent the same they would make identically good archers one in medium armor one in light. Although I suppose a summoner would have to burn a feat for martial weapon proficiency with a longbow.
If the hunter had full bab or bonus combat feats that would be great but he doesn't...
Funny i was under the impression summoner had low bab.
Well hunters can get precise shot for free, so witouth PBS, PRecise shot and Martial proficiency a Summoner is 3 feats behind the hunter.
The comment on armor is that the hunter may not need high dex if he goes melee, it may even go heavy armor if he wants to invest a feat. The Summoner as an arcane caster his most optimal choice would be mithral chainshirt and high dex. Investing in proficiency and the feat to ignore ASF is way too feat intensive
Also about the AC if you want to stretch the rules you can use Animal ally combination to get a really powerful AC early, altought this rules reading is dubious at best. And in any case the Oracle does a better job at doing this anyaway.
When I look at the summoner, it's difficult to make your character a good striker along with your eidolon. If you look at the numbers, you find that your character is better suited to buff your eidolon.
The hunter, because of teamwork feats, can become a very viable striker along with the animal companion.
You can get outflank at second level, combat expertise at first level and pack flanking at third level. By sixth level with precise strike, you are looking at +4 hit, +1d6 precision damage any time you are riding or adjacent to your companion. Later on you can get coordinated charge for a "pounce" like ability. There are lots of other useful teamwork feats .
Ranger spell list has some gems in it like named bullet - almost like a free critical with a bow.
A lot of it comes down to how you conceptualize your character - playing a summoner is like playing a sidekick to your eidolon. Playing a hunter is more like a well rounded character that is more than equal to his animal companion.
The hunter kinda feels like they took a fighter split him in two and said ok that's balanced. You end up with a ok bow user and a ok pet but with less DPR than a fighter if you get put together and a small hp pool for the animal to make it easy for your combat effectiveness to get slashed.
I just want to find a way to shine as a partial caster who is only soso at weapon combat and soso at spell casting with a pet that's not much better than a druids.
So does a summoner have any weaknesses at all encounter wise?
Playing my first rpg currently and we have a summoner in the group who more or less cleans up every fight we're in. His turns also take forever to get through, which I think adds to the growing boredom of the rest of the group.The GM also seems to get a bit frustrated and is increasing the difficulty of the encounters which has resulted in the deaths of a couple of other playercharacters (granted in 1 case also some ingame stupidity). This might be normal for a campaign though, as I mentioned I have no experience in the matter.
I did expect the experience to be more "fun"/interactive and less waiting around and metagame discussions about what certain characters are allowed to do within the rules. Sadly it's pretty much the only option I have locally to get into roleplaying.But back to my original question, is there any aspect of a summoner that is an inherent weakness or is the GM doing the "only" thing he can to keep it challenging by raising the CR?
Getting ganked early pre summons by a cmb grappler also silence.
I played a master summoner so i had a lot of creatures and the best way if the gm doesn't want to run them is to share them among the other players. I was like opera. You get a tiger! You get a tiger! Everyone gets a tiger! my turn essentially became everyone's turn and didn't take any longer than anyone else at the table except when we all forgot how rake worked or the grab rules for natural attacks and full attacks...The teamwork feats make the hunter animal companion way better than the druid's. Hunter is one of the few classes that can get pack flanking (since there is no animal companion that can take it as a teamwork feat, so only hunters, cavaliers, inquisitors can get it).
It takes system mastery of the hunter to take advantage of all of it's advantages. For instance the hunter animal companion can get ranger skirmisher tricks.
Yes I have seen those neither the Gm or I was very happy about how ambiguous the rules regarding those are. There's a post around here with over 100 faq requests regarding those tricks.
What teamwork feats would you recommend given that I am using a bow?
How is a Hunter's Animal Companion better than a Druid's? - two big reasons:
1) ANIMAL FOCUS - an underrated ability. It's permanent on your AC, one at 1st level, 2 at 8th level. +4 to both Strength and Dexterity is nothing to sniff at for fighting; but it could as easily be bonuses on Perception or Darkvision or Scent.
2) Teamwork feats - the benefit of these can't be downplayed. Stealth Synergy means that your Hunter + AC could sneak better than a rogue. They also offer significant bonuses to combat efficacy.
But back to my original question, is there any aspect of a summoner that is an inherent weakness or is the GM doing the "only" thing he can to keep it challenging by raising the CR?
You can dimensional lock an area and prevent outsiders from entering. He's still a good caster but it knocks him down a step.
If the eidilon is a beast he can also get a planar binding done to him and the bad guy can send the eidilon after the party.
I think there's a third trick but its not coming to me off hand.
His turns really shouldn't be taking that long. I played a summoning undead lord with 4-5 "pets" and my turns still took less than most the players. If he can't handle it he shouldn't play a summoner.
OK perhaps my dissatisfaction with the hunter comes from my lack of expertise.
What kind of build would you use for yourself and the animal at say level 7?
Spirit's Gift seems like a good feat to take at level 1.
If I was going for a stalker type build I'd go with a small race and small AC to maximize stealth. Let's say halfling with a small cat.
Feats
1: spirit's gift (heaven, stone, life, lore are all great) let's say lore for our use which gives +2 int & +4 stealth
2B: outflank
3: precise strike
3B: stealth synergy
5: Open
6B: open
7: Open
Just from that your pets stealth is 7(ranks)+6(dex)+4(small)+4(lore)=+21 you also get to roll twice and take the higher.
If you both went for hellcat stealth you'd be rolling 2d20+14 while in bright light and watched with no items or other abilities.
Slightly off topic but is the Primal Companion hunter Archetype as good as it seems? I have played 2 games with it and am wondering if the loss of animal focus was a bad trade on my part.
So does a summoner have any weaknesses at all encounter wise?
Playing my first rpg currently and we have a summoner in the group who more or less cleans up every fight we're in. His turns also take forever to get through, which I think adds to the growing boredom of the rest of the group.The GM also seems to get a bit frustrated and is increasing the difficulty of the encounters which has resulted in the deaths of a couple of other playercharacters (granted in 1 case also some ingame stupidity). This might be normal for a campaign though, as I mentioned I have no experience in the matter.
I did expect the experience to be more "fun"/interactive and less waiting around and metagame discussions about what certain characters are allowed to do within the rules. Sadly it's pretty much the only option I have locally to get into roleplaying.But back to my original question, is there any aspect of a summoner that is an inherent weakness or is the GM doing the "only" thing he can to keep it challenging by raising the CR?
The summoner's weakness is the summoner.
Slightly off topic but is the Primal Companion hunter Archetype as good as it seems? I have played 2 games with it and am wondering if the loss of animal focus was a bad trade on my part.
It's better. The animal focus can be made up with gear, nothing can make up evolutions.
Edit: I edited this earlier but tablet did some lame clicking something I didn't click thing.
The low cost evos are really good; pounce, reach, magic attacks(key one for ACs), and extra attaks ones.
Large/huge is also good and should stack with animal growth for some massive ACs.
Edit2: Also note you might actually qualify for the animal focus feat since that archetype gives it up.
It's my opinion that using a bow with a hunter is a weak option.
Yes a ranged hunter is weaker and more fest intensive with little feat rollover.
Yeah, primal companion is broken - its even banned in PFS
Yeah, primal companion is broken - its even banned in PFS
Ug yeah I know they always ban the good stuff.
It's my opinion that using a bow with a hunter is a weak option.Yes a ranged hunter is weaker and more fest intensive with little feat rollover.
So ditch the bow retrain to get outflank be stealthy. Probably pick up skill focus stealth on me and the animal and then go crazy with hellcat stealth. Stealth checks are a non action in combat right so could I smack a guy then stealth right in front of him with a -10?
Can I full attack then stealth during a 5ft step after?
It's my opinion that using a bow with a hunter is a weak option.Yes a ranged hunter is weaker and more fest intensive with little feat rollover.So ditch the bow retrain to get outflank be stealthy. Probably pick up skill focus stealth on me and the animal and then go crazy with hellcat stealth. Stealth checks are a non action in combat right so could I smack a guy then stealth right in front of him with a -10?
Can I full attack then stealth during a 5ft step after?
If you wanted to go that route might want to pick a small companion that only has a single strong attack and both pick up spring attack while doing the above. You can stealth while moving before and after the spring attack. Man this sounds like a nasty better shadow dancer.
Edit: They or you don't have to be small, was just thinking of it as an extra +4. Note with primal you could get a medium AC and ride it, also giving it the skill eco for stealth. That could prove to be better depending on speed and such.
Also what's the build you're playing now that you're unhappy with.