On a separate note, LMPJr.'s title to the thread is pure sensationalism. One might question if he's more sizzle than steak?
Or a marketing genius?
SG
When I offer freelance jobs to several of the individuals mentioned in this thread at 8 cents a word, I will call it a good business strategy of only hiring the best people that people want to buy.
And if you think LPJ Design is all sizzle, check out End's review of Obsidian Apocalypse. That's ALL STEAK!! Prime grade A!!!
Didn't question LMPJr Design, I questioned LMPJr. yourself. And I guess you glossed over the part where I equally suggested you were a marketing genius? No matter, kinda makes my point. And I agree with End, 'tis a good product from what I have seen.
SG
Didn't question LMPJr Design, I questioned LMPJr. yourself. And I guess you glossed over the part where I equally suggested you were a marketing genius? No matter, kinda makes my point. And I agree with End, 'tis a good product from what I have seen.
SG
I am not taking what you said as a negative, I did take it as a compliment. (That is the main problem with the internet. There is no inflection in what you write, so thing comes out sounding very different then intended.)
You guys work for 8 cents a word? :(
I find that disappointing.
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You guys work for 8 cents a word? :(
I find that disappointing.
Steve-
For a lot of companies, that is an exceptional rate, and I'm flat-out impressed by it. Many, many companies pay around 2-5 cents, from what I remember.
SG
I am not taking what you said as a negative, I did take it as a compliment. (That is the main problem with the internet. There is no inflection in what you write, so thing comes out sounding very different then intended.)Didn't question LMPJr Design, I questioned LMPJr. yourself. And I guess you glossed over the part where I equally suggested you were a marketing genius? No matter, kinda makes my point. And I agree with End, 'tis a good product from what I have seen.
SG
Apologies on my misinterpretation.
...and its still a good product :-)
SG
Yeah we normally pay 2-3 cents depending on the range and person. That's still like $80-120 for 4,000 words (and that is before paying an editor and for art).
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I understand that the market rate is low. I'm just disappointed that we (the fans) don't pay enough for RPG books to justify a higher rate.
In my view, the work required to produce 4000 creative words is worth considerably more than $120.
I'm disappointed in the world, not in any individual inhabitant of it. :)
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You guys work for 8 cents a word? :(
I find that disappointing.Steve-
For a lot of companies, that is an exceptional rate, and I'm flat-out impressed by it. Many, many companies pay around 2-5 cents, from what I remember.
SG
And less than that for editors.
Yep. I think editors should be paid more too. Sadly, there's this belief that twenty dollars for an RPG supplement is at the pricey end. :(
It kinda is. I can buy 2 and a half paperbacks for that.
Sure, because of economies of scale. Compare it to something with a comparable audience (say an academic textbook).
Yeah. If we could pay folks more- we would.
You guys work for 8 cents a word? :(
I find that disappointing.
OK let me ask this incredibly loaded question: What do you think writers should get paid a word? What about editors?
lol that's quite the loaded question but... realistically?
Not sure of the validity of it, but a lot of guidelines I've come across 10c to 20c per word (fiction).
That's $400-$800 per 4,000 word (mind you, that's edited).
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The problem is scale. If an 4,000 word RPG book/PDF sold 200,000 copies, there'd, the fixed costs of paying the author, the artist(s), the editor, and the layout person would be spread very wide. In theory those people could be paid very well. On the other hand, what happens if a PDF product sells 200 copies at $10 each? There's only $2,000 to spread around between the publisher and all of the individuals involved. There simply isn't room for great pay.
This is a niche hobby, and 3PP products are a nice product within that market, and each 3PP is fighting for their slice of a realistically tiny amount of disposable income.
Shrug.
The problem is scale. If an 4,000 word RPG book/PDF sold 200,000 copies, there'd, the fixed costs of paying the author, the artist(s), the editor, and the layout person would be spread very wide. In theory those people could be paid very well. On the other hand, what happens if a PDF product sells 200 copies at $10 each? There's only $2,000 to spread around between the publisher and all of the individuals involved. There simply isn't room for great pay.
Shrug.
$2,00 to go around? I think you missed RPGnow's 30% to 35% or Paizo 25% take of selling at their sites. So that $2K becomes between $1,300 or $1,500. Welcome to the world of RPG publishing.
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What do you think writers should get paid a word?
My goodwill. My goodwill, sir, and you shan't get a tuppence more!
OK let me ask this incredibly loaded question: What do you think writers should get paid a word? What about editors?You guys work for 8 cents a word? :(
I find that disappointing.
I don't have the numbers with me, but I set out a business plan to produce a 32 page adventure a la Paizo's old modules.
I worked on twenty cents a word split between designer and developer in some proportion and around $1500 (I think) for editor. Then a layout person, art director and about $3000-$4000 for art/cartography.
The whole thing came to $12,000 before printing/distribution costs (I was planning on getting a thousand printed and shipped to Seattle for $4000 but didn't have any electronic distribution plans.
All in all, it came out a little more than I expected going in, but I think that's a reasonable budget based on what I think people should get. My disappointment, to be clear, is that RPG fans are not willing to pay more to justify proper salaries and investment of capital. That's just life, but I wish things were different.
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As a new freelancer, I can say now, when you see your name in print - wow, that's worth so much more than a few cents or pence per word.
I also find in the gaming arena we are in, when I talk to my fellow freelancers, it's the love of the game, the love of designing, that is what gives us the buzz, the cents per word is incidental.
The money we make on a few hundred or thousand words, just about covers our coffee and doughnuts when writing them. The buzz and showing off to our friends and families, pointing at a book to your 5 year old nephew and going "I invented that", that my friends is where it is at, and always will be :)
Yeah, it's pretty clear that RPG work isn't something you do for the money. I just wish you could have that feeling and get paid properly for it.
OK let me ask this incredibly loaded question: What do you think writers should get paid a word? What about editors?You guys work for 8 cents a word? :(
I find that disappointing.
What about layout folks?
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No one makes RPGs for the money. It's not really money you can live off of unless you're with a big company... and even then it's meager wages.
Believe me, I've been trying to make it my living since i was laid off from the Newspaper. It's not happening as anything other than a side job.
And yes, those facts DO make me grind my teeth when people want free stuff or complain about pricing.
P.S. There are currently only a handful of "big" companies. I would have to say Paizo, WotC, Catalyst, and Onyx Path Publishing. OPP only because of the following that they've brought over from White Wolf.
What about the people who do Star Wars (fantasy flight games?) that seems to have been a hit and they seem to be churning out high quality, regular releases.
What about the people who do Star Wars (fantasy flight games?) that seems to have been a hit and they seem to be churning out high quality, regular releases.
They do! I really don't know enough about them to make an educated remark, though. I know that it's possible to turn out really good work and still not be making enough to put food on the table. Especially if you use a lot of freelancers you can look much bigger than you are.
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As a new freelancer, I can say now, when you see your name in print - wow, that's worth so much more than a few cents or pence per word.
I also find in the gaming arena we are in, when I talk to my fellow freelancers, it's the love of the game, the love of designing, that is what gives us the buzz, the cents per word is incidental.
The money we make on a few hundred or thousand words, just about covers our coffee and doughnuts when writing them. The buzz and showing off to our friends and families, pointing at a book to your 5 year old nephew and going "I invented that", that my friends is where it is at, and always will be :)
I can't eat paper, and the electronic company frowns when you try to pay in accolades. (If I could eat paper, I would have a smorgasbord in my art office). Praise is good, praise is fine, but it doesn't pay the bills, and the fact that people (publishers and customers alike) balk at what is considered standard rates in any other field besides RPGs makes me a little sad.
$2,00 to go around? I think you missed RPGnow's 30% to 35% or Paizo 25% take of selling at their sites. So that $2K becomes between $1,300 or $1,500. Welcome to the world of RPG publishing.The problem is scale. If an 4,000 word RPG book/PDF sold 200,000 copies, there'd, the fixed costs of paying the author, the artist(s), the editor, and the layout person would be spread very wide. In theory those people could be paid very well. On the other hand, what happens if a PDF product sells 200 copies at $10 each? There's only $2,000 to spread around between the publisher and all of the individuals involved. There simply isn't room for great pay.
Shrug.
What's up with the cranky? My illustration makes its point without needing to detail literally every drain on the income. While yes, distributors aren't - strictly speaking - single human entities, neither are artists should there be more than one involved in a particular publication, so I kind of covered that in "all of the individuals involved".
So.
Was the point I made valid? Was it demonstrating the plight of you and your brethren? Was I being sympathetic and basically on-side with your condition?
Just letting you know that when someone is effectively agreeing with you, and it's the Internet, pulling out a sentence with "I think you missed" in it isn't likely going to rub them the right way. A more constructive response might've been something along the line of "yeah, that's all true, and of those drains on income, the distributor is a huge one". Y'know, if you were looking to make friends. <Grin>
$2,00 to go around? I think you missed RPGnow's 30% to 35% or Paizo 25% take of selling at their sites. So that $2K becomes between $1,300 or $1,500. Welcome to the world of RPG publishing.The problem is scale. If an 4,000 word RPG book/PDF sold 200,000 copies, there'd, the fixed costs of paying the author, the artist(s), the editor, and the layout person would be spread very wide. In theory those people could be paid very well. On the other hand, what happens if a PDF product sells 200 copies at $10 each? There's only $2,000 to spread around between the publisher and all of the individuals involved. There simply isn't room for great pay.
Shrug.
What's up with the cranky? My illustration makes its point without needing to detail literally every drain on the income. While yes, distributors aren't - strictly speaking - single human entities, neither are artists should there be more than one involved in a particular publication, so I kind of covered that in "all of the individuals involved".
So.
Was the point I made valid? Was it demonstrating the plight of you and your brethren? Was I being sympathetic and basically on-side with your condition?
Just letting you know that when someone is effectively agreeing with you, and it's the Internet, pulling out a sentence with "I think you missed" in it isn't likely going to rub them the right way. A more constructive response might've been something along the line of "yeah, that's all true, and of those drains on income, the distributor is a huge one". Y'know, if you were looking to make friends. <Grin>
I think you owe him $50 now.
What's up with the cranky?
That sound you heard from me was not cranky. It was laughter.
Just letting you know that when someone is effectively agreeing with you, and it's the Internet, pulling out a sentence with "I think you missed" in it isn't likely going to rub them the right way. A more constructive response might've been something along the line of "yeah, that's all true, and of those drains on income, the distributor is a huge one". Y'know, if you were looking to make friends. <Grin>
I think you are taking this personal when that was not my intent. I was giving you something that people can overlook when thinking of cost of making an RPG. I am sorry you thought I was coming off like an ass, that was not the intent.
I don't have the numbers with me, but I set out a business plan to produce a 32 page adventure a la Paizo's old modules.
I worked on twenty cents a word split between designer and developer in some proportion and around $1500 (I think) for editor. Then a layout person, art director and about $3000-$4000 for art/cartography.
20 cents a word split is WAY too much. Like WOW you could never recoup your money paying rates like that. A 32 page adventure in 20K words. Six cents a word for designer and developer and 3 cents a word for an editor is realistic. $1,500 for art and layout is the "high end" for a 1st time 3PP.
The whole thing came to $12,000 before printing/distribution costs (I was planning on getting a thousand printed and shipped to Seattle for $4000 but didn't have any electronic distribution plans.
All in all, it came out a little more than I expected going in, but I think that's a reasonable budget based on what I think people should get. My disappointment, to be clear, is that RPG fans are not willing to pay more to justify proper salaries and investment of capital. That's just life, but I wish things were different.
Those numbers are just too high to be successful in this industry.
What's up with the cranky?That sound you heard from me was not cranky. It was laughter.
Okie dokie.
Those numbers are just too high to be successful in this industry.
Yes. That's my point.
I don't have the numbers with me, but I set out a business plan to produce a 32 page adventure a la Paizo's old modules.
I worked on twenty cents a word split between designer and developer in some proportion and around $1500 (I think) for editor. Then a layout person, art director and about $3000-$4000 for art/cartography.
20 cents a word split is WAY too much. Like WOW you could never recoup your money paying rates like that. A 32 page adventure in 20K words. Six cents a word for designer and developer and 3 cents a word for an editor is realistic. $1,500 for art and layout is the "high end" for a 1st time 3PP.
And just to add to this, some companies I know of come closer to 900 to 1k words per page, so this word count for 32 pages would reach towards just less than 30K, thus reducing the profitability even more. Depends on a lot of variables, but...
SG
PS that's why some companies, I wont name names (lol) release 3-500 page books...it can be more profitable than 32 page adventures.
PS that's why some companies, I wont name names (lol) release 3-500 page books...it can be more profitable than 32 page adventures.
If done right, 48 pages can be the "sweet spot" for publishing success. The cost of printing doesn't really go up that much and you can price at 15.99 to 17.99 and not one blinks and eye to the price.
To be honest, as a consumer, I never thought about that end of RPGs. Sure, I heard countless times that there isn´t much money to make, but then, I thought that with all the RPG companies around, that it would support at least several dozen to a few hundred people working full time, and by support I mean more than just above poverty levels.
From my side, there is that dilemma: I´ve only got that much money to spend each month after all costs are covered, so if the prices went up significantly, I would be able to afford fewer books. I basically don´t have any problem with paying more for it, but I would have to buy less overall, so the money going into the RPG industry from me would be more or less the same overall.
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This whole discussion is why, despite being a relatively big 3pp pathfinder publisher, Dreamscarred is still a side job for all involved. The tabletop rpg market just isn't big enough. It's been growing, but not to the point it can support a huge number of people doing it as a job.
It's a huge point of frustration for me, as I'd love to do this full time, but as a single income family of four, the economics simply don't work.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Regarding industry payment: I wrote for TSR and for Mayfair during the late 1980's. I am surprised that the industry rates haven't risen a penny in that time. (I understand that TSR was the industry leader, and we can't compare that to minor publishers nowadays. But Mayfair was not. And they paid 5 cents per word.)
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This whole discussion is why, despite being a relatively big 3pp pathfinder publisher, Dreamscarred is still a side job for all involved. The tabletop rpg market just isn't big enough. It's been growing, but not to the point it can support a huge number of people doing it as a job.
It's a huge point of frustration for me, as I'd love to do this full time, but as a single income family of four, the economics simply don't work.
What's the old joke?
"If you want to make a million in the RPG industry, start with $2 million."
What about the people who do Star Wars (fantasy flight games?) that seems to have been a hit and they seem to be churning out high quality, regular releases.They do! I really don't know enough about them to make an educated remark, though. I know that it's possible to turn out really good work and still not be making enough to put food on the table. Especially if you use a lot of freelancers you can look much bigger than you are.
Based on the increase in size of the FFG offices, I would say they are doing pretty well. However that may be supplemented by their board and miniature games.
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This whole discussion is why, despite being a relatively big 3pp pathfinder publisher, Dreamscarred is still a side job for all involved. The tabletop rpg market just isn't big enough. It's been growing, but not to the point it can support a huge number of people doing it as a job.
It's a huge point of frustration for me, as I'd love to do this full time, but as a single income family of four, the economics simply don't work.
What's the old joke?
"If you want to make a million in the RPG industry, start with $2 million."
Oh, don't get me wrong, I make money from publishing. It's how we were able to go to gencon the past couple years. But as a viable way to quit the day job? Not without jettisoning the kids and downsizing the house and cars. And I'm not sure my toddler and infant would appreciate that. :)
Another issue: Those of us that are willing, able, and capable to produce content for free to publishers aren't a huge save for them either -- they have to balance the price (free) with what they are really getting, a person that is working on their own time and pace... which could put the document behind or in a bind if they fall off and don't complete.
And that's assuming the 'free' is actually willing, able and capable. There are probably other issues to worry about too.
Another issue: Those of us that are willing, able, and capable to produce content for free to publishers aren't a huge save for them either -- they have to balance the price (free) with what they are really getting, a person that is working on their own time and pace... which could put the document behind or in a bind if they fall off and don't complete.
And that's assuming the 'free' is actually willing, able and capable. There are probably other issues to worry about too.
The biggest issue mostly likely being that the content is worth every cent. /snark
The biggest issue mostly likely being that the content is worth every cent. /snarkAnother issue: Those of us that are willing, able, and capable to produce content for free to publishers aren't a huge save for them either -- they have to balance the price (free) with what they are really getting, a person that is working on their own time and pace... which could put the document behind or in a bind if they fall off and don't complete.
And that's assuming the 'free' is actually willing, able and capable. There are probably other issues to worry about too.
Yup -- which is why wayfinder is routinely laughed at for even existing.
Of course that is part of the capable -- many are willing some are able, but can they product a good product, that (just as importantly) is inline with the document being written
Great stuff is good but if it doesn't match the subject matter it's useless for that document.
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The fact that some folks genuinely believe that the RPG industry is a sprawling gold mine which can sustain thousands of paid jobs, produce TV advertisements, land movie and AAA+ video game deals, get Erik Mona a Ferrari AND do all of this anywhere besides the US and Canada never ceases to amuse me.
The biggest issue mostly likely being that the content is worth every cent. /snarkAnother issue: Those of us that are willing, able, and capable to produce content for free to publishers aren't a huge save for them either -- they have to balance the price (free) with what they are really getting, a person that is working on their own time and pace... which could put the document behind or in a bind if they fall off and don't complete.
And that's assuming the 'free' is actually willing, able and capable. There are probably other issues to worry about too.
Yup -- which is why wayfinder is routinely laughed at for even existing.
Of course that is part of the capable -- many are willing some are able, but can they product a good product, that (just as importantly) is inline with the document being written
Great stuff is good but if it doesn't match the subject matter it's useless for that document.
I think that most would agree that wayfinder is the exception, rather than the rule when it comes to free 3pp products. Although I would reason that any 3rd party product that had a regular material from industry powerhouses in every issue, had great content from fantastic industry rank and file types, AND had a stack of submissions from people trying to break into the industry that they could be discriminating about, and had all of this come together frequently enough to be considered a periodical, then that 3rd party product would probably freaking amazing too. I'm I missing one?
Also, free being worth every cent still applies to submissions at wayfinder. Someone either reads them as a massive personal time sink, or the unsolicited ones get trashed en masse. Either way, my point stands - because I was talking about the publisher's side,free is worth every cent, sometimes less.
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On the other hand, what happens if a PDF product sells 200 copies
Try 20 copies. I do all my budgets on that number. 50 is not unrealistic, but not frequent. 200, I sold a few in that quantity. Like 2 or 3 titles, but no more than 3.