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So my current character is a bit of a coward, and I think it's hysterical. It is kind of fun to subvert the eager adventurer stereotype, and I want to do it more. Specifically, I want to build the Legendary Sir Robin who bravely ran away, away.
I am thinking we are looking at a Cavalier of the Order of the Cockatrice, for maximum irony, probably taking Leadership at level 7 to have a Bard as a cohort to extoll his great deeds of sweeping in at the last second to steal all the glory and running from anything scary.
My issue comes with the fact that I have no idea what else I want to do with the character/s. A Cavalier with high Charisma also needs constitution and either Strength or Dex, so that is already three stats he needs to be relatively high. Not really sure what Archetypes would work best here, though I am tempted by Standard Bearer, Dune Drifter, and Gendarme.
As for the bard, I also do not really know what I am doing. I've never played a Bard before, but a Court Bard seems perfect for what I have in mind.
Can you guys suggest anything to help to me flesh out this doubtful duo and their (not) so heroic adventures?
At some point the cavalier will be required to eat the bard. And rejoice.
Good thing he's Chaotic Neutral then, though I am going to run out of Bards very quickly if I take too many leadership penalties from killing my followers.
Honestly though, advice making this work? I'm not even sure what weapon would be best for a Cowardly Cavalier...guns to make sure he is far away? Make him a Dune Drifter? Or perhaps heavy strength so he can charge in with a lance at the last minute for massive damage? How can I build a bard to best help him run away? Spells, etc.
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You HAVE to go into the Low Templar prestige class.
It gives you the ability to Withdraw as a move action ("He bravely turned his tail and fled,") as well as the ability to switch sides when it's convenient.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, you can eat your bard with no penalty to your Leadership score! And there was much rejoicing!
Low Templar is amazing XD, that is so perfect. What would be the best method of hitting that prestige class? I think Cavalier makes the most sense, but there could be another combination that works better...
Also, am I right in presuming that you can hit this prestige class as early as level 6?
You HAVE to go into the Low Templar prestige class.
It gives you the ability to Withdraw as a move action ("He bravely turned his tail and fled,") as well as the ability to switch sides when it's convenient.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, you can eat your bard with no penalty to your Leadership score! And there was much rejoicing!
This is prefect.
*breaks down weeping*
Low Templar is amazing XD, that is so perfect. What would be the best method of hitting that prestige class? I think Cavalier makes the most sense, but there could be another combination that works better...
Also, am I right in presuming that you can hit this prestige class as early as level 6?
Cavalier looks like a good entry as the Mounted Combat feat is a prereq. Also you could take the PrC at level 6 assuming your skill points and feats are properly distributed.
Since you are going Cavalier, I think you should be going Standard Bearer - it fits better than the vanilla Cavalier with those fancy feats that improve CHARGING AT ENEMIES D:
As for fighting style, you probably want to get Shatter Defenses and Violent Display. Since you deal Sneak Attack damage, you will refresh Dazzling Display each time you hit a flat-footed enemy, which happens whenever you use Shatter Defenses!
You probably want high Dex for initiative.
Later, try to get Improved Critical feats to kite and cripple (like Staggering Critical, it works well with Low Templar's Dirty Fighting. Consider taking one level of Rogue (Thug) to improve your Intimidation and debuffing, and your Sneak Attack... and then if you take another level in Rogue, you can take the Underhanded rogue talent which keys off your Charisma! It's kewl like that.
A mix of Cavalier and Rouge seems interesting for certain, I will have to experiment on what works best. If I splash into Rogue though I am going to need to take whatever the feat is to make sure my horse keeps up with my character level rather than my cavalier level.
Do you? Honestly you could take Daring Champion, for irony, and get rid of the mount.
I'll have to experiment with that, taking away the mount robs me of doing 70-100ft lance charges which is the only way I'll manage to make use of sweeping in at the last moment.
I might take Death or Glory too, just to be ironic. A character completely built around running away and sweeping up the glory.
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Get rid of the mount at 7th level, get jaunt boots(allows you to move 15' as a 5' step 3 times a day ... perfect for stepping in from the back to "kill" that foe who "merely stumbled" when your ally attacked him), equip your bard and one other cohort with boots of the enduring march (1500gp a pop and will allow them to force march a bit easier for the extended retreats), have the bard sing your PCs "praises" and have the other clap together two coconut shells in rhythm with your PC's jouncing step.
I know I am going to prestige this guy, so maybe I should just ignore cavalier completely? Heck, Low Templar allows me to basically play a NE character pretending to go about and be a good guy (plus getting to hide being evil from people).
So what combination of classes would be best to hit Low Templar. I still think getting Order of the Cockatrice seems like a really good idea which is why I liked Cavalier, but there have been some excellent suggestions like Rogue, Barbarian, maybe even a fighter or some other class combination?
Help me out here folks.
I'd say Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier (Daring Champion) 2/Rogue (Thug/Scout) 3.
That would work, would let me focus on being a Dex based charger which is a little strange but totally reasonable. I could totally make him a daring champion and go for Dervish dance, which would let me drop strength a fair bit.
So we hit level 5, then go 10 levels into prestige, how would you use those last 5 levels? Rogue, Cavalier, or something else? I am thinking of him being an 8th level rogue in the end for the Skirmisher ability that allows him to just make a move action to sneak attack. The extra rogue levels are actually very valuable in what they allow him to accomplish.
What do you guys think?
I'd say go Daring Champion of the Order of the Cockatrice up to 4, at least to get the deeds (either that, or actually take Swashbuckler levels.)
Dodging Panache is great for Sir Robin. Someone 5-foot steps up to full attack you? Step away! The lion pounces on you? Step away! And Opportune Parry and Riposte will also help you save your lily-livered hide.
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I made a mock up of what your guy would look like at level 20, if you go 10 Rogue and 10 Low Templar (also Halfling, but you can easily take another race)
Male Halfling rogue 10 / low templar 10 Archetypes Scout, Thug,
None Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +6, Senses Perception +24
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DEFENSE
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AC 20, touch 17, flat-footed 14 (+3 armor, +5 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 size )
hp 158 ((10d8)+(10d10)+50)
Fort +11, Ref +16, Will +8, +4 Will vs. chaotic evil outsider abilities, +2 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities evasion,
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee rapier (small) +24/+19/+14/+9 (1d4+5/15-20)
Special Attacks Brutal Beating, Crippling Strike, Frightening, Offensive Defense, Scout's Charge, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack 7d6,
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TACTICS
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Sir Robin first attempts to avoid direct confrontation, using his high Bluff skill to get out of trouble.
If that fails, he'll try to use his high Bluff to try to make his future victim lower its guard. Thanks to Dirty Fighting, Veteran of Gorum and Underhanded, Sir Robin can use improvised weapons without penalty and attacking an unsuspecting enemy deals MAX sneak attack damage (42 damage, that's 21 damage more than the average surprise round attack).
Once in the heat of battle, Sir Robin will perform a dazzling display of TAUNTS. Enemies will be flat-footed, frightened if they fail by a large amount, and in the case they are hit, Violent Display triggers the TAUNTING once more. "GO AWAY OR I SHALL TAUNT YOU AGAIN!", Sir Robin exclaims.
Where this all to fail, Sir Robin will enter the total defense action and allow his trusty planar companion (perhaps a chaotic evil killer rabbit?) to do the bashing, until he can run away safely.
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STATISTICS
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Str 8, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18,
Base Atk +17; CMB +17; CMD 31
Feats Cautious Fighter, Dazzling Display, Dodge, Fencing Grace (not yet released), Improved Critical (Rapier), Leadership, Mounted Combat, Shatter Defenses, Taunt, Violent Display, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +29, Diplomacy +8, Disable Device +8, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +8, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (Local) +4, Knowledge (Planes) +5, Knowledge (Religion) +2, Perception +24, Ride +12, Sense Motive +9, Sleight of Hand +27, Stealth +31,
Traits Natural-Born Leader, Veteran of Battle (Gorum),
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ crusader, damnation ~ chaotic, dirty fighting, fearless, flag of convenience, fleet of foot, halfling luck, live to fight another day, low blow, parting shot, path of darkness ~ chaotic, planar cohort, ruthless, underhanded*, weapon and armor proficiency, weapon familiarity,
Combat Gear
Other Gear rapier (small), studded leather (small), 0.0 gp
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Brutal Beating (Ex) At 3rd level, whenever a thug deals sneak attack damage, she can choose to forgo 1d6 points of sneak attack damage to make the target sickened for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 her rogue level. This ability does not stack with itself - only the most recent duration applies. This ability replaces trap sense.
Crippling Strike (Ex) You can sneak attack opponents with such precision that your blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of your sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.
Crusader (Ex) Whatever your faults, you are a skilled warrior against the demon hordes of the Worldwound. You gain a +4 bonus on all weapon attack and damage rolls against chaotic evil outsiders. You also gain an equal bonus on all Will saving throws against the abilities of chaotic evil outsiders.
Damnation ~ Chaotic (Su) You have chosen to follow a chaotic path. You may ignore the chaotic aspect of your alignment, similarly and in addition to that ignored by your path choice. You also gain a planar cohort.
Dirty Fighting (Ex) You meld the stately forms of combat with a down-and-dirty style; no trick is beneath you. You never take a non-proficiency penalty on attack rolls with improvised weapons and you gain a +2 bonus on all combat maneuver checks. In addition, whenever you land a critical hit, you may choose to apply a random effect rather than dealing extra damage [d6: 1 - staggered 1 rnd; 2 - nauseated 1 rnd; 3 - deafened 1 rnd; 4 - blinded 1 rnd; 5 - sickened 1 min; 6 - fatigued]; these durations are doubled if the crit multiplier is x3, and tripled if it is x4.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can only be used if you are wearing light armor or no armor. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of evasion.
Evasion
Fearless (Ex) Halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Halfling Luck.
Flag of Convenience (Ex) You are adept at aligning yourself with the winning side, disappearing when convenient, and evading blame without besmirching your reputation. You gain a +2 bonus on all Bluff and Disguise checks, and on Linguistics checks made to create forgeries. You never suffer a penalty to your Leadership score for moving around frequently, aloofness, cruelty, or the loss of prior cohorts or followers, and can replace lost followers in half the normal time.
Fleet of Foot Some halflings are quicker than their kin but less cautious. Halflings with this racial trait move at normal speed and have a base speed of 30 feet.
Frightening (Ex) Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Halfling Luck (Ex) Halflings receive a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
Live to Fight Another Day (Ex) You can use the withdraw action as a standard action, although if you do so, you can only move at your speed (not double your speed).
Low Blow Some halflings train extensively in how to attack larger creatures. Halflings with this racial trait gain a +1 bonus on critical confirmation rolls against opponents larger than themselves. This racial trait replaces the keen senses racial trait.
Natural-Born Leader You've always found yourself in positions where others look up to you as a leader, and you can distinctly remember an event from your early childhood where you led several other children to accomplish a goal that each of you individually could not. All cohorts, followers, or summoned creatures under your leadership gain a +1 morale bonus on Will saves to avoid mind-affecting effects. If you ever take the Leadership feat, you gain a +1 trait bonus to your Leadership score.
Offensive Defense (Ex) When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled against that creature for 1 round.
Parting Shot (Ex) You can use the withdraw action as a move action, although if you do so, you can only move at your speed (not double your speed).
Path of Darkness ~ Chaotic (Su) You have decided to stray further from to your oaths to Iomedae and her ethos of law and goodness. You may ignore the chaotic aspect of your alignment for determining alignment-based magical effects. You also gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Diplomacy checks with creatures with the chaotic or evil subtypes.
Planar Cohort (Su) You gain a planar cohort appropriate to your actual alignment, gained as if you had taken the Leadership feat. This planar cohort appears to you and pledges loyalty to you immediately. If the cohort perishes, you must wait a week before calling upon a replacement. You gain a +1 bonus to your Leadership score. If you replace your cohort gained from your Leadership feat with the planar cohort, the maximum level equivalent for your planar cohort is one higher.
Ruthless (Ex) Whenever you kill a foe or reduce it to a dying state with a melee attack, you can immediately make another attack with the same weapon on any legal target at the same attack bonus as a swift action. You gain a +10 bonus on damage rolls with this attack.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Whenever you make a charge, your attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
Skirmisher (Ex) Whenever you move more than 10 feet in a round and make an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If you make more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack.
Sneak Attack (Ex) If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Your attack deals 7d6 points of extra damage anytime your target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, or when you flank your target. Should you score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. You cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty. You must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. You cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Underhanded* (Ex) A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn't know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).
Veteran of Battle (Gorum) You have fought in several battles, and each time felt the presence of Gorum guiding your sword-arm, making you ready to act at a moment's notice. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Initiative checks, and if you are able to act during a surprise round, you may a draw a weapon (but not a potion or magic item) as a free action during that round.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Weapon Familiarity (Ex) Halflings are proficient with slings and treat any weapon with the word "halfling" in its name as a martial weapon.
That being said, 100% optimized, you really want to go Tiefling, Fiendish Sprinter is awesome and their racial feats are useful too.
Yeah, the Deeds do look pretty handy, perhaps a mix of Rogue, Cavalier, and Low Templar with Cav 4, Rouge 6, and Low Templar 10. Then again, maybe I could optimize it further. Decisions decisions.
Isn't it interesting how we are building a character to run from our enemies instead of just figuring out the best way to fight them?
Heehee, I'm having fun working on this guy.
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How could we have overlooked Fast Getaway:
After successfully making a sneak attack or Sleight of Hand check, a rogue with this talent can spend a move action to take the withdraw action. She can move no more than her speed during this movement.
This way, you can sneak attack the enemy who your buddy is flanking... and then run away! And if you are Order of the Cockatrice then you have to demand at least a fair share of the loot.
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Ok, guys, I figured it out.
Emissary 4, Scout/(Knifemaster, Rake, or Thug)6, Low Templar 10
This combination does a lot of things for the class, here are the notable ones. 1: Free mounted combat instead of Tactician. Sure tactician might have been nice, but you cannot take Outflank until level 5 if you went Rogue 4/ Cavalier 1 and that doesn't work with the rest of out tactics. Also, it gives us normal movement speed in medium armor which is nice. While we do not have natural proficiency in heavy armor, we can take that as a feat to wear Mithral Heavy armor and still move at full speed if we get caught on foot. Of course, we are going to be riding our horse a fair bit.
Which is the key thing here, 4 levels in cavalier grants us two very important things. It grants us a boost to charging, and Expert Trainer. Namely, we now have +4 to hit and NO AC PENALTY for charging. Expert Trainer is not that great, except that it will allow us to take Horse Master as a feat, ensuring that our Horse stays perfectly relevant as a mount as we continue to level. It also grabs us 4 BAB which means we can pick up Outflank at level 5 if we have willing teammates, or for our future cohorts.
From there, we grab four levels in Rogue to get Sneak attacks on our charges from Scout. The choice of a second Archetype is up to the person building Sir Robin, but I do love the idea of using a charging Dagger from horseback, specifically a Kukri to deal d8s with your limited sneak attack dice. From there, we prestige into Low Templar and start ranking up from there.
Unfortunately, 4 into Cavalier seems like a very solid point for any build which does minimize the rogue levels you can have. Even going Daring champion really means you need 4 levels to get the deeds. This means we Prestige at level 9, or perhaps that we prestige at level 5 and then go grab our rogue levels. More likely we prestige at level 7 so when we take Leadership our cruelty doesn't effect our leadership values. I am not sure which order we do things in, but regardless the end result is a Cavalier who specializes in Charging in for flanking sneak attacks and then hastily retreating just to do it all over again.
If you were ok with skipping the horse completely and blowing a feat on Mounted Combat, you could instead go for Rogue 10/Low Templar 10.
Congrats. You have built Sir Robin.
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But how are you holding a dagger AND the coconuts?
Robin is easy. 7th level Aristocrat.
Feats: (Human) Dodge, 1st Level Run. 3rd Level Fleet, 5th Level Fleet, 7th Level Leadership.
You HAVE to go into the Low Templar prestige class.
It gives you the ability to Withdraw as a move action ("He bravely turned his tail and fled,") as well as the ability to switch sides when it's convenient.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, you can eat your bard with no penalty to your Leadership score! And there was much rejoicing!
Yeah, low templar is gold. I've made a few low templars, including one bad guy.
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Since you've made so many, what constitutes a planar companion in your opinion?? For each CR.
Nope! Sounds like work.
I was into low templar chars about two years ago.