The team has a number of systems in progress which will moderate the effectiveness of ranged attacks, but we are uncertain when those systems will be deployed.
As an interim step, we are considering implementing a rule where a character is forced into the Stationary condition during a ranged attack.
What you are voting on there is a temporary fix, not a long term one.
@Wurner: I think you and I are on the same wavelength (mine, notably, has changed somewhat since this time yesterday when I started this maelstrom). I would like to see tougher mobs, too; but unfortunately I've been seeing in a number of different places that PvE is not meant to be overly hard. It sounds like PvP in groups is meant to be the real combat challenge in this game. Hopefully that won't be the final end product, though it may take some lobbying to prevent PvE from becoming a side-note.
@ Drake: I commented on what you posted there, but to reiterate: I officially change my stance to Longbows and Staves giving stationary due to their power and range while wands, Short bows and cleric spells give slow due to their shorter range, lower power, and intended mobility.
@ Saiph: I honestly hope they implement that system (well, for longbows and staves, anyways). It is a very nice soft fix to the issue that still forces the player to stay still while attacking at range, but also allows the player the freedom to change their minds and back out.
Goblin Squad Member
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I officially change my stance to Longbows and Staves giving stationary due to their power and range while wands, Short bows and cleric spells give slow due to their shorter range, lower power, and intended mobility.
I think it really has to come back to developer intent.
If the developers didn't intend for us to be able to kite, then we shouldn't be able to kite. If they intended for us to be able to kite, but didn't want it to be as easy as it is, then taking away our ability to kite is not the right solution.
Still, I hope that we can get this experiment underway now, while we're still in Alpha, rather than launching Early Enrollment with such a significant change in design assumptions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The solution to this is as intuitive as it is realistic. Better AI and miss chance goes up if you are moving. Miss chance also goes up if target is moving. Think transversal velocity just like eve. Now there could be a skill which would decrease these penalties.
There is no miss in the current ranged mechanics. If you can target it, your shot will hit. That is how the problems was handled in several previous game systems. It is similar to 'opportunity'. But under this tab-targeting non-twitch system you won't miss.
It will be painful for archers in PvP when melee charges, but then that is how it was in the olden days I am given to understand.
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So, this "no miss" thing is something I've been wondering about... is that intentional? If so, it doesn't really follow the Pathfinder mechanics. Low-level characters miss shots, spells, and melee attacks ALL THE TIME. Others aren't "misses" but dodged, blocked, or parried. Even WoW had dodges, blocks, and parries. Is this game really going to be broken down to the simplest common denominator of just ability = damage with no miss chances or defensive saves? If so, I'm going to be SORELY disappointed.
As for moving while firing. It should ABSOLUTELY increase your miss chance. Then there's no reason to make you stationary. Just increase miss chances based on how fast you're moving, which is completely realistic.
As for the girl in the video (the same one I posted in another thread), her accuracy is actually pretty good if you watch later. She's putting an arrow into your chest every time, albeit at a short range, while moving and firing once ever 2 seconds (and faster). She's able to do that because she's fluid and consistent in her movements and is able to draw an arrow and knock it without taking her eye off of her target. So, she never looks down, knocks, and then has to re-aim when she looks up. As an archer myself, I can tell you that you can aim while drawing, so if you never 'de-aim' by looking down, you can draw and fire over and over with relative ease.
As for implementing this fix, if we're really thinking of implementing a game-changing fix in order to test very broken PvE combat, then I think that's a pretty good indication that this game is not anywhere near ready for EE launch yet. I don't agree with trying this as a "stop gap". Get the right fix, implement it, and launch when combat works REASONABLY well such that fixes require tweaking, not drastic measures or stop gaps. If systems are missing that would make archery work as intended, then maybe those systems should be considered part of the M to have a VP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is intentional. The trade off is in the total damage done. Each hit will do a different amount of damage, depending on how good your hit roll was, but you will always do something.
It's non-standard, but it actually appeals to me that if I take a swing, even if my shot wasn't good and I barely get a hit, I affect them. As opposed to tabletop, where I can stand three feet away from an ogre, swing a three-foot sword, and miss them half the time, but always do the same cluster of damage when I do hit.
It simplifies the mechanics a lot.
Did I hit?
what am I hitting with, what do I roll for damage?
which modifiers affect my damage on that attack?
vs.
You have an attack roll
You have a base damage with modifiers
Your attack has a multiplier
Roll*Base*multiplier=damage.
I understand the idea of removing misses at melee, although I think they should still be in at range.
However, I much prefer to see blocks and parries (which is what any roll above 10 that doesn't break a character's total AC represents), than just lower damage.
Blocks and parries are part of real combat. Damage with every swing is boring and overly simplistic. There's no reason to simplify combat when the calculations are being done by a computers. In fact, there's every reason now to make them as interesting as possible and complication of calculation be DAMNED. I think the computer can handle some table look-ups and simple arithmetic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, this "no miss" thing is something I've been wondering about... is that intentional? If so, it doesn't really follow the Pathfinder mechanics.
PFO mechanics are not Pathfinder tabletop mechanics. They can't be. The Open Gaming License was specifically written to make it nearly impossible to produce a computer game under the OGL.
Don't forget, too, that hit points are an abstraction to begin with, incorporating zeal, skill and luck along with actual wounds. Higher level characters have more hit points not because they have the bodies of prizefighters and linebackers*, but because they have hundreds of hours of practice, and the Fates smile on them more often than the average peasant. Losing a few hit points every time someone attacks you makes sense. Your dodge or parry takes a little bit of your energy, and brings you a little bit closer to the point where you lose your edge, and the blows start doing physical damage.
*Some fighters may have an impressive physique, but most of a high level fighter's hit points have to come from something other than bodybuilding. Running around with a sword for a few years won't make your body withstand ten or fifteen times as much physical abuse as it could when you were fresh off the farm. Wizards and rogues with middling-to-low Constitution scores don't even have the bodybuilding excuse.
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I've heard all that reasoning presented before. I still think it's more interesting to see dodges and parries with the occasional hit than just seeing who's HP bar runs out faster.
If you've ever watched epic sword-fighting in a movie, most of the swings are blocked, parried, or evaded. Otherwise it's a damned short sword fight. I'd rather see lower HP and more obvious defensive saves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've heard all that reasoning presented before. I still think it's more interesting to see dodges and parries with the occasional hit than just seeing who's HP bar runs out faster.
If you've ever watched epic sword-fighting in a movie, most of the swings are blocked, parried, or evaded. Otherwise it's a damned short sword fight. I'd rather see lower HP and more obvious defensive saves.
Those aren't the mechanics Goblinworks choose to use. You could propose to use them on Ideascale.
Another legacy from very early D&D: Combat rounds were one minute long, not six seconds, and they were assumed to be full of parries, dodges, and evasion. The idea that a parry should be a melee action is pretty recent, by comparison.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've heard all that reasoning presented before. I still think it's more interesting to see dodges and parries with the occasional hit than just seeing who's HP bar runs out faster.
If you've ever watched epic sword-fighting in a movie, most of the swings are blocked, parried, or evaded. Otherwise it's a damned short sword fight. I'd rather see lower HP and more obvious defensive saves.
Almost everybody would rather see it, but it's far more complex coding and far more processor intensive. It involves dozens (or more) of variables in thousands of combinations instead of one simple equation of three of four variables. That's for one character and one wildlife. multiply that by half a dozen of each?
Every action has to be sent to the server and back, because A) the actions of other people in the area has to be injected and B) any math that is done locally can't be trusted. For a hundred people, the difference between the two forms is inconsequential. For 100,000, it isn't.
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Ryan is pretty adamant folks participate via the Ideascale thread he created on this topic.
In particular, he would like to know if you can see anything "game breaking" about making all ranged attacks stationary.
I sort of do beleive its game breaking because I think it is dumbing the game down and removing tactical options and also too early to truly assess what ranged combat is really like.
Also my experience in alpha 7 was a plate armored fighter with longsword and whirlwind was much more effective at wiping out mobs then an archer. You just walked in hit whirlwind and they All fell over, sprint to next mob rinse and repeat.
A better solution would have been to make more armor available. Armor drops are even less than in 7 and armor crafting times are long meaning not that much crafted armor will be getting out there before the Alpha finishes.
But I have not gone on ideascale because:
1) I do not play an archer so it is none of my business
2) Between here and the slow laggy Goblinworks Alpha forums and trying to play the game I do not have time to monitor a 4th place,
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As I mentioned in ideascale this is a major wide-sweeping solution to a primarily PvE problem in a game where PvP is meant to be the primary content.
Lee Hammock had stated earlier that PvE mobs are supposed to be as close to PvP as possible.
So why do NPCs not have charge attacks, slowdowns, immobilizes, weapon switching, and longer aggro ranges to deal with kiting more like a player would?
We don't need band-aid solutions that take us farther from what PFO is meant to eventually be like. We need to constantly be implementing and testing the the REAL permanent solutions meant to be in-game longterm and if a few groups of ogres die to solo PVEers in the meantime then so be it.
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I understand the idea of removing misses at melee, although I think they should still be in at range.
However, I much prefer to see blocks and parries (which is what any roll above 10 that doesn't break a character's total AC represents), than just lower damage.
Blocks and parries are part of real combat. Damage with every swing is boring and overly simplistic. There's no reason to simplify combat when the calculations are being done by a computers. In fact, there's every reason now to make them as interesting as possible and complication of calculation be DAMNED. I think the computer can handle some table look-ups and simple arithmetic.
Well if you want to be realistic parrying was pretty much only done in Errol Flynn movies and in real life was limited mainly to piercing weapons like rapiers and fencing foils.
It is very detrimental to the health of a traditional sword to parry or block with the cutting edge so blocking is a last resort done with the flat of the sword. Blocking with a mace or axe is going to be difficult because of the inertia of the weapon.
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I understand the idea of removing misses at melee, although I think they should still be in at range.
However, I much prefer to see blocks and parries (which is what any roll above 10 that doesn't break a character's total AC represents), than just lower damage.
Blocks and parries are part of real combat. Damage with every swing is boring and overly simplistic. There's no reason to simplify combat when the calculations are being done by a computers. In fact, there's every reason now to make them as interesting as possible and complication of calculation be DAMNED. I think the computer can handle some table look-ups and simple arithmetic.
Only the last bit of HP damage needs to be harm done. Blocks and parries are the norm, and HP represents your ability to block and parry.
As I mentioned in ideascale this is a major wide-sweeping solution to a primarily PvE problem in a game where PvP is meant to be the primary content.
Lee Hammock had stated earlier that PvE mobs are supposed to be as close to PvP as possible.
So why do NPCs not have charge attacks, slowdowns, immobilizes, weapon switching, and longer aggro ranges to deal with kiting more like a player would?
We don't need band-aid solutions that take us farther from what PFO is meant to eventually be like. We need to constantly be implementing and testing the the REAL permanent solutions meant to be in-game longterm and if a few groups of ogres die to solo PVEers in the meantime then so be it.
agreed, but if longbow can kite the way they do, that is also bad. You can literally fire behind you. If you run in a circle, you only need to swing the camera to partially view the enemy to tab target. Of course, in pvp, it would be different, but allowing people that sort of mobility at longbow range means they will never be touched.
We're never gonna get chessmaster AI for the mobs. But if they close in on you a bit faster, have more range, more damage, and have charges/stuns, that's all you need. Also, what about cleric ogres?
The hardest pve game I remember playing (even tho it was down to a science once you got good) was Guild Wars 1. They had really good balance in mobs. I could see once classes get fleshed having good formations and support, even debuffs, necromancers to raise more enemies from the corpses. It's just very simple right now. So it should be simple to exploit... and it is.
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Some things to note about this. I played a Fighter/Rogue Sunday evening for 7 straight hours and didn't get any Light Armor or a Longbow. The only armor I got was Heavy. I killed hundreds of humanoid mobs and wolves to get that heavy armor, which I gave away with a bunch of stuff.
There were suggestions on the Alpha forums that armor drops would be increased in Alpha 8 but in actual fact it seems like even less armor drops in Alpha 8 then we got back in Alpha 7.
Of course Murphy's law says they will fix this and increase the armor drop rate at the exact point crafted armor starts to be available :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game has to start somewhere and progress from that point.
Armor isn't dropping as far as I can tell. My character is completely naked now. Ryan shared tonight in game that only three types of mobs are currently dropping anything at all (One of those was Bandit Recruits). Evidently others should be dropping loot, and presumably some of those were supposed to drop armor.
Early Enrollment (EE) isn't release. Release is Open Enrollment (OE) and that is months away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lack of ability to get gear will be solved when we get the proto-crafting settlements in. Crafters and resource processors will come to buy materials and sell their products. Adventurers will come to sell crafting supplies and monster dropped items, and buy crafted goods.
Longterm, NPCs will not be a major source of gear for anyone except ultra-newbs and people who are broke.
This solo farming thing... haha. I have this sinking feeling they are going to really put this idea in the game.
I mean, if you had to, then you would go duo farming and one could kite while the other shot and then switch. The issue persists and the poor rangers.
Not to mention, you can burn down even a ranged ogre with two people in time to not die and run far enough away to be safe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, but Nihimon you're teh uber wizard of unholy wrath who calls down a storm of destructive fury on the benighted bandit recruits, goblin scouts, and omega wolves whereas I am the delicate, and now naked, shortbow plinker.
lol, yeah I have found this in game.
You complain that you cannot kill enough stuff in melee to get armor drops before you die so many times your weapon wears out and the wizards and archers say "what is your problem" .
However I am sure the "10% armor drop" figure is rubbish. People are just quoting the 10% figure Ryan quoted before Alpha 8.
Between myself and another keeper over the last day or so we have got about 10 or 12 weapons 4 or 5 implements and at least 10 recipes and not one armor drop. I think armor is dropping at more like 1% not 10% .
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Bandit Recruits, Goblin Scouts, and Omega Wolves.
...and those are hunted out approximately 0.012 seconds after they appear, and their respawn rate could be more encouraging :-). It'll be nice when enough monsters share these vital drops for the quoted gear-drop rates to feel as if they're actually happening.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Armor isn't dropping as far as I can tell.It's dropping, it's just a relatively low rate (10%) and only on Bandit Recruits, Goblin Scouts, and Omega Wolves.
I have looted probably 8 suits of armor so far.
Are you actually getting 10% or just quoting Ryans figures from the Alpha forum which to be honest seem wrong.
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So what did I learn from this thread:
1. The issues are far greater than my limited thinking and experience could imagine (which is usually true, me being human and all).
2. Leashing is a major contributor to the problem.
3. With so many other unpolished, unimplemented or straight-up broken features in the game right now, "fixing" ranged may actually make the problems worse.
----At the very least, loot drops and the party loot systems need to be improved before we go curtailing a player's ability to solo farm.
4. WE ARE STILL IN ALPHA- oops, I forgot that :)
5. Slapping stationary on all ranged attacks is a bad idea. At the very most, shortbows, wands and cleric spells should be getting slowed.
I am forgetting things, but this will do for now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Are you actually getting 10% or just quoting Ryans figures from the Alpha forum which to be honest seem wrong.
I've looted approximately 6-8 sets of Armor. I believe I currently have about 20 Implements in my inventory, and I've handed out some. I have a significant number of Weapons, but they're not as easy to count at a glance and I can't look right now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With so many other unpolished, unimplemented or straight-up broken features in the game right now, "fixing" ranged may actually make the problems worse.
+1
Slapping stationary on all ranged attacks is a bad idea.
Maybe. The fact that the developers are seriously considering it makes me look at it with a much more open mind than if it was just an idea from some players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Any estimate of how many hours you have hunted or how many recruits/goblin scouts you dropped to get 6-8 sets of armor? My time in-game has been limited, though it seems to me I have dropped an awful lot of mobs.
I wonder whether mob drops vary geographically? I've hunted essentially the western half of the map, mostly in the central latitudes of the available hexes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe. The fact that the developers are seriously considering it makes me look at it with a much more open mind than if it was just an idea from some players.
I'd prefer we kept things as they are and leave the nerfs for later on, but if it is enough of a problem that their numbers are indicating an immediate change then I'll go with their findings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Any estimate of how many hours you have hunted or how many recruits/goblin scouts you dropped to get 6-8 sets of armor?
I'll look at my Goblin Slayer and Bandit Slayer Achievements when I get home tonight. I know I've achieved Arcane Expert 7, which means I've gotten at least 1,250 kills overall.
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Just that, knowing me, my focus would creep onto the game and I would play it rather than remaining alert, ready and attentive for those I am to assist in periods where I'm not actively working available data, performing analysis on it and generating reports. Unless I remain alert I would jeopardize some perks I rather like.
In three years I can retire. Then, like a certain Volus, I can say "FEAR ME!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for sharing your input. Please don't read my comments as negative, I'm merely trying to share my own relevant experience.
Bow users will have to buy/make ammo all the time. This will be costly and time consuming. No other weapon has to deal with this.
Actually, all ranged Attacks will have to deal with this. Wizards and Clerics will have to use Charge Gems to power their Cantrips and Orisons, so they'll effectively be operating under the same constraints as Bow wielders.
I think you should have to be facing your target/s in order for your abilities to work. Which means moving backwards. Which should be at a slower then walk pace.
Forcing the Character to face their target whenever they attack is already in the plans. Moving backwards is already slower than normal movement.
However, I consistently use "circle strafing" to kite. Essentially, I continually strafe to the left or the right while constantly adjusting my facing so that I'm circling around a point about halfway between me and my target(s), which puts them circling that same point. I'm already facing my target when I attack.
Slapping stationary on all ranged attacks is a bad idea.Maybe. The fact that the developers are seriously considering it makes me look at it with a much more open mind than if it was just an idea from some players.
Yeah but their intended version of it is for it to be a much shorter stationary. I imagine they are looking for something like 0.5 seconds instead of 1 to 2 seconds unless the attacks was already supposed to be stationary (like Overdraw).
That wouldn't be too terrible; but I could still see wand, cleric and short bow users being allowed to stay mobile with slowed.
Also, with so many different issues brought up around ranged, a short stops is definitely a part of a larger package of fixes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I understand PFO wants to be its own thing, I think it might be useful to see how another successful MMO handles this problem. I will use LotRO as the example since I'm most familiar with it:
1) Any class that can use a range attack takes a hefty miss chance penalty while moving and shooting. I believe it is a 60% miss chance, although it feels much higher in game. You also must be facing the target. Guardians and Champions also have a special range attack, Let Fly which gives bonus damage and has increased range. You must be stationary to use it.
2) The Hunter class uses bows or crossbows as its primary weapon. As a general rule they have two types of range attacks, some are stationary, some allow for movement.
The stationary attacks as a rule do significantly more damage or have very useful crowd control ability. The better the skill, the longer you must stay still, and there is the possibility that you could be forced to take longer to fire the skill if you are damaged or have it interrupted outright. They also have a longer range.
The mobile attacks as a rule do less damage, or require "Focus" which is gained slowly during combat and faster by using stationary attacks. They also hamper your movement to a slow walk rather than letting you run and their range is shorter than the stationary attacks.
3) Hunters have three specialization lines. One enhances your stationary attacks, allowing you to do more damage to enemies before they get to you. One allows you to perform mobile attacks better and build focus quicker. The third focuses on traps and CC, to keep the enemy from closing on you quickly.
4) Caster classes also have a similar setup to Hunters- a mix of skills in which some can be cast on the run, others require you to be stationary. Again, if its powerful, you're going to have to stand still to cast it.
5) Almost all classes have anti-kiting abilities, whether stuns, dazes, movement debuffs.
Some of you will probably think all of that stinks and is unfair to range/caster classes. The thing is, in PVP, those classes are still the best choice. But the thing those restrictions do is give melee types a chance at competing. Most melee types can live with that.
IMO, PFO currently doesn't do that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe. The fact that the developers are seriously considering it makes me look at it with a much more open mind than if it was just an idea from some players.I'd prefer we kept things as they are and leave the nerfs for later on, but if it is enough of a problem that their numbers are indicating an immediate change then I'll go with their findings.
I'm an inexperience, keyboard-clumsy player* and I can easily kite most groups that have only one red critter. (more, if they aren't spell casters or using ranged). It can take a while, but I have cleared mobs of 8+ with four archers in them.
* I have to look at each key to do anything other than the most basic activity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm an inexperience, keyboard-clumsy player* and I can easily kite most groups that have only one red critter. (more, if they aren't spell casters or using ranged). It can take a while, but I have cleared mobs of 8+ with four archers in them.
I'm currently failing to see the problem with that, Cal. All you are doing is harvesting with greater risk. If you are wiping out all the monsters, like Nihimon casually does (j/k Nihimon!) so no one else can get the drops I suppose that could be a problem, but we aren't trying to nerf groups are we?
If all PvE skills are only various means of harvesting, where is the problem?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I regularly take on NPCs much stronger than the recommended level, in greater quantities than is generally intended in most games I play. But then again if you haven't been doing that in most games you play, and you can here, that may be a sign of something.
The deal is though. PvE mobs are 100% predictable. Making the system so you cannot find a blindspot that allows you to chew through them more easily than intended is going to be very, very, hard.
To me, it's not a problem worth fretting over.
The real issue is only partially problems with ranged combat, and largely problems with melee being underpowered / too hard to maneuver.
Rather than slapping a band-aid on it so the problem is hidden we should be consistently making small changes to both styles of combat and observing/testing the effects.
Really. Are we here to play a balanced game or to test and improve the quality of PFO before OE?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think I should be able to take on that kind of opposition alone. It's convenient for me, but it points to a flaw.
I reflexively feel the same way, but I'm not sure there's going to be an easy middle ground where newbies can reasonably engage small camps of mobs, yet extremely experienced players can't solo large camps.