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This is also being posted on the Alpha forums under "Crowdforge." Also, I write with a very strong, affirmative voice. That does not mean I take this to be the be-all-and-end-all solution. Except for Solution item 1. That needs to happen.
The Problem:
Too easy to solo-kill large mobs at level 3
My Setup:
Fighter 3, Rogue 2
Longbow with two basic attacks + Overdraw 1 & Parting Shot 1- nothing else
Overdraw does massive damage- 1 Overdraw and 1 basic attack kills the weakest enemies
Overdraw is stationary- meaning I cannot move until the attack completes
Parting Shot deals damage and “jumps” me 25 meters back away from the target
Range on all attacks is 35 m
Armor: Scout 3
Feature: Bow Specialization 1
Reactive: Sickening Critical 1, Bleeding Strike(?) 1
Their Setup:
I’ll use bandits for this example; but all others apply to varying degrees
Bandit camp with ~8 bandits
Mix of Bandit Recruit Archers and Bandit Archers
Mix of Bandit Recruits (Melee) and Bandits
1 Bandit Captain (Yellow name)
Maybe a wolf or two
Taking them down…
1. Use stealth (skill=19) to circle the camp and ID how many archers are present
2. Prioritize Bandit Archers first- they are the most dangerous due to HP and damage capabilities; Bandit Recruit Archer second if no Bandit Archer’s present
3. Target- Back up to 35 m limit- Overdraw, Basic Attack, Basic Attack, Basic Attack - Bandit Archer drops
4. While walking backwards, Tab to target melee opponent- Basic Attack, Parting Shot OR just turn and run if the camp has a lot of archers
5. Flee until the mobs turn back
6. Wait to heal
7. Repeat from Step 2 until Archers are all gone
8. Continue process, targeting melee attackers- Overdraw, Start walking backwards, Basic Attack, Basic Attack, Parting Shot, Basic Attack, Basic Attack, Parting Shot…..
9. Draw melee attackers to edge of their “range”- then chase after them as they run back to camp, shooting them in the back the whole way
10. Check inventory to see if I picked up anything cool
The Solution
1. ALL ranged attacks are STATIONARY - no more walking and shooting/casting
- This is more realistic
--- Bows require a very rigid form to use effectively. I have some authority on this as an archer in real life. Moving while shooting is near total BS.
--- Spells require concentration. Here PFTT informs us some: there is no “cast on the run” feat and "violent motion" requires a hearty concentration check
- I believe this will go a long ways towards un-breaking ranged attacks
--- It will be the end of chasing after enemies and shooting them in the back
--- It will force the player to choose between attacking, provoking and being attacked in melee; switching to melee; or fleeing - no more halfsies of walking away while attacking
- Attacks like Parting Shot should function as normal, but maybe with a longer cooldown time
- This SHOULD NOT be applied to Melee spells as they would normally allow movement in-between casting and delivery anyways.
2. All large mobs of 4 or more should have at least 2 ranged attackers
- Mob camps (~8) should have at least 4 ranged attackers
3.1. Trigger range (the point at which they notice you and begin attacking unprovoked) for mob ranged attackers should be set to 35m - same as a PC’s longest ranged attack
- Short range attacks (i.e. Goblin Scouts) should still be short range
- This adds realism as it means the ranged attackers are the “lookouts”
- Wanna get closer without triggering a hail of arrows/boulders/bullets? STEALTH!
3.2. Mob ranged attackers should have a solid Perception score
- Currently I can sneak up to within butt-scratching distance of anything but a wolf with a 19 Stealth. That’s not right.
4.1. Melee attackers should have a weak ranged option
- That way they can keep attacking you when they hit their “range” limit from camp
4.2 Ranged attackers should have a weak melee option
- Because why wouldn’t they? Using a bow in melee gets me *killed*, so I can only imagine how it is for those poor bandit archers when I charge them with a short sword
5. Dump Bandit Recruit Archers or make them rarer- they are the Achilles heel of any Bandit Camp since they are just taking up space for Bandit Archers, which are actually a threat.
Feasibility
1. The first one is easy. The tech is already in the game and just needs to be applied to all the other ranged attacks.
2. This may or may not be easy, depending on how the Mob Generator works.
3.1. Should be easily done. Does this mean you might trigger two mobs at once by walking between them? Yes. So don’t do that!
3.2. Something tells me this is already in the pipes to be done. If it isn’t, I hope it gets some attention.
4.1. & 4.2. I suspect this requires extensive coding to accomplish. It is doable- I’ve seen it done in other games. But I could see it getting complicated fast and being a “down-the-line” fix.
5. Easily done.
Before you say it!
1. “Consumables will fix this.”
- No, they won’t. For 960 exp and the willingness to do some gathering, any character can be turned into an arrow factory.
2. “Stamina and Encumbrance will fix this.”
- It will be a major game changer, for certain. But unless they plan on only letting us sprint 10 meters on a full stamina bar, fleeing quickly will still be a viable option while chasing and shooting will also be fully functional.
- If nothing else, Stamina and Endurance will just make us all adopt more conservative hit and run tactics, killing one thing before fleeing. (Ogres being an exception here).
3. “But now you’ve nerf’d range into oblivion!”
- No. Now you just have to play the game as intended: with a friend. Preferably one with a nice set of armor. The lethality of your attacks will still be the same.
What this will fix
1. Kiting (drawing a large mob behind you) won’t be nearly as safe anymore
2. Chasing and killing melee people as they run back to camp will be gone. Period.
3. Scouting will actually require some levels in Scouting armor and Stealth
4. A level 3 character will no longer be able to play God with the bandits, goblins and ogres of the world
Problems this will create
1. Skirting around mobs will get a lot harder
2. The roads, therefore, will be a lot less safe
Goblin Squad Member
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1. ALL ranged attacks are STATIONARY - no more walking and shooting/casting
Ehhhh no. Really against this. There is no reason one should not be able to move and fire a bow at the same time.
What I could support is making ranged attacks that are not stationary drastically weaker than ones that are, and putting on longer cooldown on evade type effects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remember playing Final Fantasy XI and having a true FEAR of mobs: those bastards would chase you through a WHOLE ZONE (roughly the size of 4 or 5 hexes in PFO).
What is the reason behind the short leashes in PFO? I remember it being discussed before, but I cannot for the life of me remember now.
It seems like taking out, or lengthening, the leashes would fix a lot of these problems.
And put the fear back in to the players ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, I agree with the stationary ranged attacks, with the caveat that attempting to shoot on the run (ranged or magic) has some sort of Concentration check*, and that Feats be available to train to increase concentration or enable movement in combat (a la "Cast on the Run", etc).
*EDIT: Alternatively, movement decreases hit accuracy instead of being a concentration check.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not really "the ability to solo", though. It is taking advantage of an exploit.
If one measures their solo skill as 'knowing how far to move backwards in order to facilitate the mob leashing', one really hasn't mastered any solo skill.
If the mobs did NOT leash, and a solo'er was forced to retreat to another position WHILE being pursued, that would be different.
But right now, the common term is 'Reset'. As in "back up over here to reset those mobs, then we will go back in."
That is really what I would like to see fixed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some or all of this may be necessary, but it is too early to determine. The free use of archery will be dampened by needing to carry ammunition and the resulting effect on encumbrance. An archery solution that is perfect now may well render archery worthless at that point. A little patience is in order.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think not being allowed to move while shooting is boring. On the other hand, being able to shoot while in full sprint is ridiculous. I'd suggest that speed slows to a walk while performing a ranged attack. Also, with longer leashes, slightly faster mobs, more snares/roots and gap closers for mobs I think we'd come a long way.
There are plenty of MMORPGS that allow ranged attacks on the move without having broken combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some or all of this may be necessary, but it is too early to determine. The free use of archery will be dampened by needing to carry ammunition and the resulting effect on encumbrance. An archery solution that is perfect now may well render archery worthless at that point. A little patience is in order.
I'm not sure I agree 100%. Yes, things will definitely change when ammo and encumbrance come in to play; however, there are surely some issues of overpowered range and leashing mobs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It does seem as the mobs are leashing much easier then they did in build 7.
Making all ranged attacks stationary is a no go for me.
The stationary attacks are much more powerful then mobile attacks. I have not used a long bow in build 8, but I was able to one shot anything but ogres and reds/purples (did one shot a single gold, but just once) in build 7 with the Hunters Longbow... using overdraw. This was after day 1 of build 7, with level 2 overdraw.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(Reposting from the alpha forums)
An in-between solution is to make some ranged attacks apply 'Slowed N' (N to be chosen by the devs) to the attacker for the duration of the attack time. More powerful ranged attacks could still apply stationary. Slowed is already in game, so the tech already exists for this.
Leashing is a separate issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There already is one short bow ability called Running Shot. I could support ranking some bow attacks as Stationary, some as walking (Slow X), and some as running/sprinting (no movement penalty).
Maybe short and long bows could be balanced by making more short bow attacks walking- and running-enabled, and making the majority of long bow attacks stationary.
Its not the death of soloing that I am after. It is the death of being able to take a 0 level character and kill massive mobs with it. Right now, I could (and will, later, just to prove the point) make such a character with just 365 EXP and a long bow. Now THAT is boring.
A level 8 character than can solo a mob of goblins? No problem! Maybe even a mob of Bandits.
But a fresh new recruit being this powerful is just ridiculous.
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The leashing issue: So instead you target mobs near hex edges and kite them to the edge, where they will be forced to turn back because of game mechanic limts, whereupon you chase and shoot to your hearts content as they all run back to their camp.
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Stationary is just for the duration of the attack- longer for the slower attacks and shorter for the quicker attacks. An archer or wizard can still be mobile. Just not mobile *and* deadly.
I'm going to go look at the Alpha Forums now.
Oh yeah, the reason I hit both forums is because is more closely attended by the GW staff and the other is actually publicly visible to whoever drops by.
But this is a MAJOR issue that needs to be fixed or the environment of the game will be nigh on pointless.
And if you are annoyed by having to visit two boards (I am already loosing patients with it myself), we can hash it out here and put the key points over in Alpha.
Leashing at hex boundaries is pretty self-limiting. Most of the world is not on a hex boundary. Mobs don't respawn all that quickly. If too many people are sticking to the boundaries, they'll eventually be forced into the interior.
good point
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Ryan made an Ideascale for this.
Ryan wrote:
"We don't want to have a lengthy discussion of alternate mechanics on this topic - we are limited in terms of what we can do in the immediate future and more creative solutions are unavailable at this time."
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's another issue at stake here. Right now, joining a party means that a lot of loot is broken (see here for details). Until party loot is fixed, discouraging solo PVE will just hurt everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There already is one short bow ability called Running Shot. I could support ranking some bow attacks as Stationary, some as walking (Slow X), and some as running/sprinting (no movement penalty).
Maybe short and long bows could be balanced by making more short bow attacks walking- and running-enabled, and making the majority of long bow attacks stationary.
That would be a fairly good solution. Longbows were traditionally more used to take up a position and rain arrows down on the opponent where shortbows were mainly used for a bit more up close and personal type stuff and even by cavalry archers.
Seeing shortbow users diving around the field popping arrows in their target while longbow users tend to try to take a position and rain arrows from afar could be pretty cool.
If longbows become TOO stationary though I think their maximum range should be increased and they be given a bit more in the way of slowdown and knockback effects. I remember from my tests of the longbow it's a terrible weapon if your opponent manages to close on you and you don't get back out of range pretty fast.
There's another issue at stake here. Right now, joining a party means that a lot of loot is broken (see here for details). Until party loot is fixed, discouraging solo PVE will just hurt everyone.
You don't have to join a party to fight alongside someone. It just makes it a lot easier. But for our purposes, lets assume that issue is going to be fixed sooner rather than later anyways as it is kind of important.
I remember from my tests of the longbow it's a terrible weapon if your opponent manages to close on you and you don't get back out of range pretty fast.
As a prolific user of the longbow, that issue is not so bad if you are using Parting Shot. Also, turning tail and running is always an option.
I am ging to get off this thread and out of the way now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's another issue at stake here. Right now, joining a party means that a lot of loot is broken (see here for details). Until party loot is fixed, discouraging solo PVE will just hurt everyone.You don't have to join a party to fight alongside someone. It just makes it a lot easier. But for our purposes, lets assume that issue is going to be fixed sooner rather than later anyways as it is kind of important.
I'd just hate to see a solo nerf rushed into the game while partying is still rather broken. Making ranged attacks stationary might be a much quicker change in the code than fixing party loot. It should still happen second, not first.
There are many issues, but not all of them are listed in this thread. At least in my opinion. Even if the enemies chased you further, you could still get away. You can still kill camps with decent armor and a bow. There are only certain ranged enemies that are issues... like say Ogre Shaman.
Pve should be easy, though. Because we are forgetting that a larger issue is that people are going to be ganking you. The question is, how easy should pve be? I think there need to be harder enemies in general because these guys go down super fast.
You don't need to run and fire, either.
Mainly, I want tougher camps and better drops from the toughest camps.
Increase the range of enemy attacks, give them each a slow, at higher levels. So not only will you get snared by shaman but hurlers as well. Even make their attacks stun you like wolf bites do.
There are many ways to fix this without reprogramming the AI. I can't see how they would fix it unless they gave them gap closers or increased speed which would make them nightmares for any group.
Again: In every game aggro doesn't stick very well. The issue, is in harder games the mobs have ways to slow you. All higher level mobs should have multiple snares and stuns. That is what makes a mob higher level... not dps. At least IMO.
Double Post: @ Make all ranged attacks stationary. I just think that's gonna mess up the game. I can't figure out how to comment on ideascale.
The issue is how stationary? We talking about that you have to be rooted? That would really hit ranged characters hard.
That you can be running away from something (and facing away) and shoot it with your bow is stupid. That's a flaw.
The thing about making ranged attacks stationary is that it's an easy fix. However, it's a band-aid and it's bad mojoz. Plus I bet it would still be solo-able because the core issue wasn't fixed.
No running, OK. Slowed while ranged, OK, but rooted? Nah. Unless you want to put armor weight in the game and make ranged characters faster. They should be more than just turrets as the enemy approaches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI this wonderful young lady demonstrates the ability to move while shooting arrows. Mind you, you may say... that's not a very heavy pull. OK. But we're talking about legendary heroes, magic weapons, etc.
DON'T DO IT. Fix the root of the problem. Don't balance the game over pve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI this wonderful young lady demonstrates the ability to move while shooting arrows. Mind you, you may say... that's not a very heavy pull.
Again, real life archer here.
1. Never mind the pull, she isn't aiming at all. She *can't* aim with that form. Her technique is about speed only. Great if you want to send a hail of arrows at a wall of people. Useless for everything else.
2. Developing the fine motor skills to draw and load an arrow that quickly takes a lot of practice. A level 8 archer in PFO terms, maybe. Anything below that, though, and this is not a valid example of anything.
The issue with archers in particular is how insanely deadly they can be in PFO without spending any exp. I'll demonstrate this in practice later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI this wonderful young lady demonstrates the ability to move while shooting arrows. Mind you, you may say... that's not a very heavy pull.
Again, real life archer here.
1. Never mind the pull, she isn't aiming at all. She *can't* aim with that form. Her technique is about speed only. Great if you want to send a hail of arrows at a wall of people. Useless for everything else.
2. Developing the fine motor skills to draw and load an arrow that quickly takes a lot of practice. A level 8 archer in PFO terms, maybe. Anything below that, though, and this is not a valid example of anything.
The issue with archers in particular is how insanely deadly they can be in PFO without spending any exp. I'll demonstrate this in practice later.
Well, like I said, we're talking about legendary heroes. Fighting ogres and goblins, etc.
Is the issue experience? Fair enough. Make archers and mages unable to move. Then allow them to gain more movement as they raise their abilities. I'm not concerned with entry level pve. I am concerned with pvp when people are high level. Ranged attackers are gonna get like 1 or 2 shots before they get gap closed on and killed.
Why can't we just give high level enemies snares and have them react more quickly? Increase their speed, etc.
And yeah, I know you can solo pve. I did it. The monsters are stupid. I almost think you will still be able to solo pve if the only thing that changes is rooted ranged. Mages may stay in the game because they have so much more than just damage, but it will be a sad day for anyone who wants to spec an archer... unless the whole class is changed thereafter.
The issue, for me, is just how video game combat unfolds opposed to real life or movie battles. I don't think you can win in a video game by having a line of standing archers. Unless they get lunges and 'escapes' to counter gap closers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I actually soloed group spawns without playing with aggro range or moving that much with a mob dropped now and no armor.
If you are powerful enough overdraw one hits most weak NPCs. If you one hit an NPC it doesn't pull aggro on you.
I just picked off all the squishies first, then pounded arrows into the big ones until the closed then finished them with a greatsword.
With a shortbow however I found the power comes from the evades and slowdowns.
When we can see a demonstration of how long it takes a mage to cast fireball in real life I'll be more interested in real world comparisons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI this wonderful young lady demonstrates the ability to move while shooting arrows. Mind you, you may say... that's not a very heavy pull.
Again, real life archer here.
1. Never mind the pull, she isn't aiming at all. She *can't* aim with that form. Her technique is about speed only. Great if you want to send a hail of arrows at a wall of people. Useless for everything else.
2. Developing the fine motor skills to draw and load an arrow that quickly takes a lot of practice. A level 8 archer in PFO terms, maybe. Anything below that, though, and this is not a valid example of anything.
The issue with archers in particular is how insanely deadly they can be in PFO without spending any exp. I'll demonstrate this in practice later.
Is the "mage" allowed to use a flame thrower? j/k
Change the aggro range to a little longer than the bow's range and give them all ranged attack options, hehe ,and get rid of leashes for the entire hex range.You pull it you gotta kill it, or run run run a long way.
Bam. Problem solved :) And oh so many more created....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it is important not to over-react and bring in changes that will effect bows for years to come at all levels based on a balance issue among begining players in Alpha.
Note I am a melee fighter so have no vested interest here.
Issues to bear in mind:
- sprint is currently unlimited
- arrows are currently unlimited
- talk about real life weapons in a game with fireballs is silly
My personal thoughts:
Bows and Moving
Whilst limiting it for longbows seems reasonable I would prefer it if shortbows retain the ability to move and shoot, possibly at a restricted range while moving. it fits the idea (if not the reality) of how a shortbow is used.
Bows and Durability
It is very odd that a short bow has the same durability as a set of full plate or a greatsword. One way of balancing bows is give them far less durabilty, possibly as few as 5 HP for a basic +0 short bow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That seems a reasonable idea.
Higher mischance plus lesser range when moving will work.
I think people are also missing that targets like bandits are ultra low level and you are MEANT to mash through them at even low to middle skill. A lot of the comments seem to be ... "oh wow I can kill bandits easily with just a bow " , well they are just bandits.
The only reason melee characters are not chewing them up as well is lack of Armor. Facing a few caster NPC with crowd control spells and higher level attacks may well sort out the kiting archer crowd in no time.
That said its not important enough to me to create an idea/whats-a-name account and comment there so I will let it go.
Basically I am just saying its dangerous to make game changing decisions based on low level characters in a half finished alpha, especially bearing in mind that when you "crowdforge" the loudest voices will be the people waving nerf bats :D
However if people want to turn bow shooting into stationary heavy artillery go for it :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of increased miss chance. In PFO-terms that would translate to less damage per hit, not fewer hits at full damage. But still, the effect would be the same.
Two factors should affect this:
1) distance. A shot from far away has a much smaller chance of hitting its target than if you're very close. Penalties for firing in melee, though.
2) movement. Shots while all-out running should have barely any chance to hit the target; maybe have a special feat to alleviate that somewhat (but I'd prefer that only for shortbows and rogues with their trick shot abilities). Shots made while very slowly moving to or away from the target should be much better, but standing still and aiming is still by far the best.
Taken together, these two factors alone would make kiting very difficult and tedius, as you'd have to kite as close to the mob as slowly as possible und would still do only fairly little damage per hit. It could still possibly be done, but would take a lot of practice, take much longer per fight, carry higher risk and would over all be much less broken.
Of course, group a.i. could also be improved. Don't have the entire group blindly follow the attacker. Have them spread out, so as to prevent circling. Give some a rush-ability. Make hitting a moving target easier; especially when slowly backing away from the mob it often appears they initiate a melee attack only to hit the air where you were when the attack was initiated. Could be only the delayed animation, but really they also don't deal any damage, so something is broken, there.
Ease-up on the tethering. Mobs should follow you further and once they reach the end of their leash should not just blindly return to start while being shot in the back but have a "fall back mode" where they concentrate entirely on defense and patching up the wounded, resulting in higher health regeneration and much increased miss chance for an attacker.
With regard to physics/reality in a fantasy game: of course it is impossible to have real-life experience of the difficulty of casting fireball spells on-the-run. But I see no reason why we shouldn't at least try to approximate reality in those cases that do exist irl (and fantasy rpgs have been trying to do that more or less well forever). Then derive the more abstract magic cases from there, using similar rules to avoid breaking the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think people are also missing that targets like bandits are ultra low level and you are MEANT to mash through them at even low to middle skill. A lot of the comments seem to be ... "oh wow I can kill bandits easily with just a bow " , well they are just bandits.
But you can just as easily kite a group of eight red ogre brutes to death. It takes a little longer, but is still fundamentally the same. Also, level 1 chars are also ultra low level, better than their peers maybe, but not heroes yet. A few bandits and wolves should still be noticable opposition at low levels, especially if one pc is up against a bunch of them
But you can just as easily kite a group of eight red ogre brutes to death. It takes a little longer, but is still fundamentally the same. Also, level 1 chars are also ultra low level, better than their peers maybe, but not heroes yet. A few bandits and wolves should still be noticable opposition at low levels, especially if one pc is up against a bunch of them
This exactly.
An idea I like: Make all longbow attacks and staff attacks give stationary. Make all wand and shortbow attacks give slowed. I can own with a longbow but the shortbow is much lower in power.
My experience going from wasting mobs of red labeled bandits with my longbow to getting hozed repeatedly by a simple goblin shaman/goblin bomber/goblindog combo taught me a lesson tonight, I will admit. This rings true for me the idea that good crowd control mobs are a scarier deal best taken in pairs or groups. Also, the Bandit Camp with 5 Bandit Archers was the worst encounter of the night. Didn't even bother trying.
Transversal Velocity or whatever it is Eve has is way beyond the current state of PFO. Simple fixes are what GW is looking for right now, so we should be looking for simple solutions. I highly disagree that any changes made now have to last "for years to come." Nothing is ever set in stone. Not when it can easily be rewritten.
From the Ideascale files: I am really quite surprised at how many people (over there) seem to think that their ranged character won't able to move at all with stationary on all attacks. You're character will still be mobile. But once the gap is closed between you and the melee people, you will have a choice: stand and shoot and die; switch to melee; or turn and run away proper. It's called balance. Both bows the wand and the staff have attacks that deal damage and move you away from the melee target. There is also the Evasion utility. I am beginning to think that the folks that don't want to be less mobile ranged ("immobile" is a misnomer) are also the folks that are afraid to get their armor chinked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But you can just as easily kite a group of eight red ogre brutes to death. It takes a little longer, but is still fundamentally the same. Also, level 1 chars are also ultra low level, better than their peers maybe, but not heroes yet. A few bandits and wolves should still be noticable opposition at low levels, especially if one pc is up against a bunch of themThis exactly.
An idea I like: Make all longbow attacks and staff attacks give stationary. Make all wand and shortbow attacks give slowed. I can own with a longbow but the shortbow is much lower in power.
My experience going from wasting mobs of red labeled bandits with my longbow to getting hozed repeatedly by a simple goblin shaman/goblin bomber/goblindog combo taught me a lesson tonight, I will admit. This rings true for me the idea that good crowd control mobs are a scarier deal best taken in pairs or groups. Also, the Bandit Camp with 5 Bandit Archers was the worst encounter of the night. Didn't even bother trying.
Transversal Velocity or whatever it is Eve has is way beyond the current state of PFO. Simple fixes are what GW is looking for right now, so we should be looking for simple solutions. I highly disagree that any changes made now have to last "for years to come." Nothing is ever set in stone. Not when it can easily be rewritten.
From the Ideascale files: I am really quite surprised at how many people (over there) seem to think that their ranged character won't able to move at all with stationary on all attacks. You're character will still be mobile. But once the gap is closed between you and the melee people, you will have a choice: stand and shoot and die; switch to melee; or turn and run away proper. It's called balance. Both bows the wand and the staff have attacks that deal damage and move you away from the melee target. There is also the Evasion utility. I am beginning to think that the folks that don't want to be less mobile ranged ("immobile" is a misnomer) are also the folks that are afraid...
Looks to me like you want to play a melee range char and want an advantage. You already have an advantage its called armour. Ranged skrimishers should be better solo and should not be self countering.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. “Stamina and Encumbrance will fix this.”
- It will be a major game changer, for certain. But unless they plan on only letting us sprint 10 meters on a full stamina bar, fleeing quickly will still be a viable option while chasing and shooting will also be fully functional.
- If nothing else, Stamina and Endurance will just make us all adopt more conservative hit and run tactics, killing one thing before fleeing. (Ogres being an exception here).
You admit we do not know what it will be like when stamina is in, then say running off to heal will still be viable ?
I call shenanigans. You're trying to 'fix' untested mechanics, i.e. wait for stamina to be implemented then evaluate the ranged kiting.ps
Settlements/companies will want influence, and POI's making bulk goods for their caravans; not a backpack of drops a group could fill in 1/4 of the time.
Ryan is pretty adamant folks participate via the Ideascale thread he created on this topic.
In particular, he would like to know if you can see anything "game breaking" about making all ranged attacks stationary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I replied to Ideascale, I just wanted to say I like this idea but I'd propose a slight alteration: I don't think you should be locked in place but rather if a player moves whilst casting their action is interrupted.
I don't like the idea of animations locking me in place but I'm fine with moving causing my spells to fail.
:-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Change the aggro range to a little longer than the bow's range and give them all ranged attack options, hehe ,and get rid of leashes for the entire hex range.You pull it you gotta kill it, or run run run a long way.Bam. Problem solved :) And oh so many more created....
Which illustrates my real point, any temporary change just creates new issues.If the bows are too dependent on game content that is not in the game yet to be balanced , then they need to be removed until the game is ready for them. Or remove overdraw at least.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I posted there, for the Longbow and spells, I can see it. For the Shortbow, absolutely not. As it is, I have to sneak in to use most of my attacks, or use Distance Shot and wait for the mobs to close a bit before I can use anything other then Distance Shot.
My experience going from wasting mobs of red labeled bandits with my longbow to getting hozed repeatedly by a simple goblin shaman/goblin bomber/goblindog combo taught me a lesson tonight, I will admit. This rings true for me the idea that good crowd control mobs are a scarier deal best taken in pairs or groups. Also, the Bandit Camp with 5 Bandit Archers was the worst encounter of the night. Didn't even bother trying.
From the Ideascale files: I am really quite surprised at how many people (over there) seem to think that their ranged character won't able to move at all with stationary on all attacks. You're character will still be mobile. But once the gap is closed between you and the melee people, you will have a choice: stand and shoot and die; switch to melee; or turn and run away proper. It's called balance. Both bows the wand and the staff have attacks that deal damage and move you away from the melee target. There is also the Evasion utility. I am beginning to think that the folks that don't want to be less mobile ranged ("immobile" is a misnomer) are also the folks that are afraid...
@1, like I said. CC ftw. Having a mob of 5 reds and 1 purple all melee is stupid. There is absolutely no reason why melee can't have CC. They need gap closers and maybe shouts. The whole game should be played on effective ranges. You should know where you have to be at all times or you are dead. That is challenging pve. Not this crap.
Also, higher level mobs should have longer range than longbow, IMO. I also like the idea of miss chances at ranged. Maybe something that would level up once you get really high. But if you are a low level fighter with a bow, then maybe you have a 50% chance to miss altogether (but still aggro) the mob at full range.
Allowing for movement with short bows and/or special close-range spells is fine. That's 'balance.' But the issue is that "switch to melee" may not be an option for an archer or a mage. And once they are at a certain distance, they are dead. They can't stop and fire, it's just an eternal chase until someone stams out. Likely the archer. Add in gap closers and it's GG. I don't think it's impossible to imagine someone, at 10 or 15 feet being able to fire off bow shots while kiting. Given that once heavy armor gets into melee chars, bow damage will probably be lower as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes. CC, gap closers, smarter leashing, more ranged mobs, perhaps mobs can also be allowed to sprint? At least wolves should be able to run a bit faster.
Anyway, those kinds of things can solve this long term. However, we are fast approaching EE. As things stand, ranged players with a minimum of experience and gear can solo most camps. That does not bode well for the initial economy - ranged adventurers will be economical power houses.
All the fine and necessary suggestions to fix this problem long term can't be implemented in a hurry. Making all ranged attacks stationary though, can be done. I don't like it but I think it is a good idea to make the OP ranged solo camp clearers a little less powerful. As a temp solution. Once people have armor, exp and weapons melee can do quite well but for the very start of EE, something should be done against the naked ranged juggernaughts.
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Moreover, I think that we need more dangerous mobs overall. Even as melee with very little training I feel pretty confident soloing groups of enemy mobs. I don't really feel the need to group up when farming mobs.