For S&S and the class decks, I'm seeing a lot of characters that gain spellcasting abilities for specific times.
For Flenta (fighter class deck)
I'm guessing her "For your combat check that has the Attack trait, you may use the skill Arcane: Intelligence +2" does not allow her to recharge the cards at all since it's just for the check.
For Alahazra's Tempest role
Does her "When you play a spell that has the Attack trait, you gain the skill Arcane: Charisma +2 until the end of the encounter" allow her to recharge the spell at the end of the fight?
For Damiel
Does his "When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill until the end of the step" allow him to recharge the spell (since it's not during an encounter, it would be the step)?
How do these last two abilities work with displayed cards? (Blizzard / Speed or Strength for Damiel)
Do they get banished since the step or encounter is over and the spell checks to recharge at the end of the turn?
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For Alahazra's Tempest role
Does her "When you play a spell that has the Attack trait, you gain the skill Arcane: Charisma +2 until the end of the encounter" allow her to recharge the spell at the end of the fight?
Yes, it does apply to the recharge.
In the manual, the recharge check is part of the Attempt the Next Check, If Needed step. (Recharge is an example of another check.) That is before the Resolve the Encounter step.
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For Damiel
Does his "When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill until the end of the step" allow him to recharge the spell (since it's not during an encounter, it would be the step)?
(I don't have my cards or reference PDF with me so relying on your verbage.) If it says specifically "step" on Damiel's card, then no. The recharge is a separate step in the process. Think of his power as not so much a scroll as with Flenta but as a potion. Both a scroll and a potion are one-shots. The Strength and Speed spells would be banished once used.
I've been waiting on an answer for Damiel since we started playing. It's like borderline impossible to know if 'step' is intentional or not, but we've been playing that he can recharge stuff because I can't think of a single non-attack spell in all of RoRL that cares about your Arcade/Divine for anything other than recharges.
I remember hearing this is informed by the RPG and the spells are meant to represent alchemical concoctions. I don't know anything about the RPG, though, so I have no context to know if knowing that helps one way or the other.
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As for spells, he cannot recharge according to what is on his card. Actually playing the spell is a step. The recharge is another step. That's according to the Encounter rules.
I do play the RPG and a lot of times I will think of things in this game in the context of the RPG. Damiel is an Alchemist. And while Flenta is a wannabe wizard, she's a fighter casting scrolls. Damiel is making potions and using them (or passing them to others i.e. Strength). And since it does say step for now and the recharge is a separate step, I'd think his spells are one-shots.
As for spells, he cannot recharge according to what is on his card. Actually playing the spell is a step. The recharge is another step. That's according to the Encounter rules.
I do play the RPG and a lot of times I will think of things in this game in the context of the RPG. Damiel is an Alchemist. And while Flenta is a wannabe wizard, she's a fighter casting scrolls. Damiel is making potions and using them (or passing them to others i.e. Strength). And since it does say step for now and the recharge is a separate step, I'd think his spells are one-shots.
I don't see the point in the ability being equal to his craft check then. Since you would only use the check to restore the spell (spells that don't have the attack trait don't care about your divine/arcane skill until recharge).
I figured Alahazra would be able to since it said encounter, I'm very confused about Damiel. Thematically I completely agree with you, just the way it's worded it would make no sense for him to need the ability if they're one shots.
My only guess is we're looking too deeply into it, and it's for non-attack spells later in S&S or future proofing.
Even still, seems like kind of a pain in the butt. :/
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I don't see the point in the ability being equal to his craft check then. Since you would only use the check to restore the spell (spells that don't have the attack trait don't care about your divine/arcane skill until recharge).
I figured Alahazra would be able to since it said encounter, I'm very confused about Damiel. Thematically I completely agree with you, just the way it's worded it would make no sense for him to need the ability if they're one shots.
That's why I said "for now" in my last post. I'm not sure the intent for the power. The way it is worded, it is a one-shot. That means his spells are cast and banished. If the intent is that he is a minimal caster, then it should be worded differently. They've introduced steps in the S&S rulebook. Specifically. So playing the spell is a step ... and you could use a blessing to enhance the spell. Recharge is another step ... and you can play another blessing to enhance the recharge check! Two separate steps. That's according to the Encounter section.
Based on the RPG, Damiel's spells should be no more one-shot than Ezren's. They are essentially the same type of "casters" with both of them having "spellbooks" and preparing "spells" at the start of the day or leaving preparation slots open to prepare what is needed when a situation arises. The only difference (and the reason for excessive "quotations") is that Damiel isn't technically a caster, his spellbook is called a formula book, and his spells take the form of potions. Otherwise, his extracts/infusions act exactly as spells do (including being affected by dispel magic) and he can prepare them for free at the beginning of the day just like a wizard can, day after day.
For him to not have the chance to recharge spells would be, in my option, a misrepresentation of his abilities. I feel that the developers are being very careful about how this issue is treated, evident by the fact that this thread hasn't been answered yet even though we have been assured that it is being discussed and we should wait for a ruling.
I still feel that the intent of the wording is considering the "step" being the entire process of the spell resolving, meaning it's entire Power text, so even if it is a display spell he'd still be able to recharge it. However, this would be problematic because it says he "gains" the skills. He could then play a display spell that lasts until the end of the turn and play Attack spells safely on a later encounter which definitely wouldn't be the intent. I think the ability really needs to have an elegant re-write to work. Once I get my Add-On Deck I'll be playing this as I feel it is intended. Since he isn't OP legal right now, I'm okay with doing that for now, but it would be nice to get the official word on it.
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I still feel that the intent of the wording is considering the "step" being the entire process of the spell resolving, meaning it's entire Power text, so even if it is a display spell he'd still be able to recharge it. However, this would be problematic because it says he "gains" the skills. He could then play a display spell that lasts until the end of the turn and play Attack spells safely on a later encounter which definitely wouldn't be the intent. I think the ability really needs to have an elegant re-write to work. Once I get my Add-On Deck I'll be playing this as I feel it is intended. Since he isn't OP legal right now, I'm okay with doing that for now, but it would be nice to get the official word on it.
Yeah, I think this will get a re-work as well. I think the intent of Damiel's ability is as a potion recipe. But the way it is worded along with the way steps are described in the rulebook, makes it a one-shot if sticking to the rules. But I would probably use the common sense rule and allow the recharge.
Just FYI, we have been locked in a discussion about Damiel for a couple weeks now, attempting to explore all the nooks and crannies that we created when we wrote his power. We hope to emerge from it very soon.
I'm in agreement with pluvia. In fact, I'd argue his power is ambigious as to what "step" means. Because "step" is used to describe the parts of the turn and the parts of the encounter.
Your Turn
Take your turn by going through the following steps in order.
So his power could be either:
When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill until the end of the step of the turn.or
When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill until the end of the step of the encounter.
Alahazra shows what they would have done with encounter. So I'd say Damiel's is more about step of the turn. Of course, that opens things up because of the size of the explore step and the fact he could play Cure and then have the Arcane skill for the rest of the explore step.
So effectively, I'm treating him, for now, as if his power says, "When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill for the purposes of that card."
That is my best guess as to his intention, without actually knowing it. So, my interpretations are...
Flenta
Her powers allow her to have more punch with the Attack spells than a typical non-caster, but she still has to banish them. She doesn't actually gain the skill. Her other power makes up for this.
Alahazra
Her power allow her to attempt the recharge check. She gains the skill for the encounter and the recharge check is part of the encounter. I can't think of a spell with the Attack trait that is played outside of an encounter, but if there was one, she would have to banish it. She wouldn't gain the skill outside of the encounter.
Damiel
He gets to attempt the recharge.
EDIT: And I wrote all this before Mike posted.
Yeah, that's basically it.
Yeah, that's basically it.
That's pretty much what I thought for all of them as well, thanks to everyone for the help.
Damiel and Alahazra have definitely become favorites.
Re: Alahazra
Where do the cloud spells fall into her power? They have the attack trait and can last for multiple encounters. Based on the wording of the power, I'd think she'd have to banish them, but thematically, I could see it working either way.
I'd say she banishes them. Her power seems to be meant to allow her to pack more punch or options in her combat checks, which seems like something the Oracle can do in the RPG. The cloud spells even being included are perhaps sort of a loophole.
So, I'd say she only have it for the encounter. If she isn't recharging the spell before the encounter is over, she has to banish it when the time comes.
That's the way I read it as well. I'm glad to see we're on the same page. Also, because cloud spells last until the end of her turn, I can't really think of a circumstance off hand where she would get to recharge them.
Ok, so it feels like the official ruling will likely come that Damiel gets to attempt to recharge his spells. But since he only has the ability during the step where it is cast, does that mean that he'll be attempting the recharge with a d4? Or should I read the card as: "When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill until the end of the step for the purpose of recharging the spell."? Or, if we are talking about the "step" of the turn instead of the "step" of the encounter, does he then get the Arcane/Divine ability for the rest of his explores?
Arcane or Divine equal to your Craft skill otherwise he couldn't recharge at all.
Right, but according the the rules that is the next "step" of the encounter and his card specifically says "until the end of the step." Unless they mean step of the turn, in which case it is more powerful than Alahazra's "until the end of the encounter." power. Which is fine, but they just need to clarify which "step" they mean. Or change the power to say something else.
And even if you're rolling the recharge with 1d4 and he can't successfully recharge the spell, merely not having to banish it is quite nice, as you can always cure it back to your deck later and if you give him a good spell he won't lose it forever the first time he casts it like Flenta.
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Arcane or Divine equal to your Craft skill otherwise he couldn't recharge at all.Right, but according the the rules that is the next "step" of the encounter and his card specifically says "until the end of the step." Unless they mean step of the turn, in which case it is more powerful than Alahazra's "until the end of the encounter." power. Which is fine, but they just need to clarify which "step" they mean. Or change the power to say something else.
And even if you're rolling the recharge with 1d4 and he can't successfully recharge the spell, merely not having to banish it is quite nice, as you can always cure it back to your deck later and if you give him a good spell he won't lose it forever the first time he casts it like Flenta.
We can keep arguing or listen to Mike.
I'm not really arguing as much as working through the implications of the discussion to date so I understand and Mike hasn't said which die you get to attempt the recharge with :)
Once Mike/Vic/Chad/Tanis/etc says what it is, I will of course accept that as the rule going forward.
And if the intention is that you get to attempt the recharge with your Craft skill but you don't get it for the rest of your explores, that is something different than what the non-errataed card actually says.
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My statement should not be interpreted as a request for you to stop arguing.
I just want to say thanks to pluvia for referencing my "lost thread," and to Mike for assuring me it's really not lost at all.
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The way I've been playing it is the only place I saw "step" was the turns/exploration "step". So if he uses say cure at the start of an exploration then he has Arcane/Divine while exploring so he can gain cards/items/allies that require those skills.
I don't think that's going to be the official clarification. That plus his not banishing alchemicals seems way too powerful for one character.
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My statement should not be interpreted as a request for you to stop arguing.
I have no problem arguing if we advance the conversation. I was feeling like it was sliding backwards.
So how would he have a d4 Arcane or Divine check?
If the intent is to have the power for the additional use of the recharge of the spell, the only option is at his Craft skill. If not, he does not have the Arcane or Divine skill and then it wouldn't be a d4.
What about
"When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill while interracting with that card."
Haha, I was actually forming a post in scrolling down this thread that was going to ask just that. Is there a problem I'm missing with just saying "When you play a spell with the attack trait, you gain Arcane skill equal to your divine for the purposes of that card"?
Unless, I guess, in Ala's case if they wanted to purposely deny her cloud spells and stuff like that. :D
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Haha, I was actually forming a post in scrolling down this thread that was going to ask just that. Is there a problem I'm missing with just saying "When you play a spell with the attack trait, you gain Arcane skill equal to your divine for the purposes of that card"?
Unless, I guess, in Ala's case if they wanted to purposely deny her cloud spells and stuff like that. :D
But Alahazra's power already should not apply to clouds based on the wording of cloud cards. Hers is relegated to encounter only.
What about
"When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill while interracting with that card."
My only problem is, what does interact mean in the context of the game? If Damiel casts speed on himself is he interacting with the card for the rest of the turn since he is getting the bonus from it? If it is purely for recharging, just say that. If they understandably want to leave it open to being used for more than just recharging but not give him the power for the full Explore step of the turn, the wording gets very tricky. I think Hawkmoon's "for the purposes" is the best wording so far to give you the Craft skill recharge without being overly ambiguous or limiting.
Having said all of that, he is still limited to a max of 4 spells. So giving him the ability for the entire Explore step is probably not OP. It would make it a little easier to acquire some Arcane/Divine boons and make a few closing checks, but that isn't game breaking.
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What about
"When you play a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill while interracting with that card."
My only problem is, what does interact mean in the context of the game? If Damiel casts speed on himself is he interacting with the card for the rest of the turn since he is getting the bonus from it? If it is purely for recharging, just say that. If they understandably want to leave it open to being used for more than just recharging but not give him the power for the full Explore step of the turn, the wording gets very tricky. I think Hawkmoon's "for the purposes" is the best wording so far to give you the Craft skill recharge without being overly ambiguous or limiting.
Having said all of that, he is still limited to a max of 4 spells. So giving him the ability for the entire Explore step is probably not OP. It would make it a little easier to acquire some Arcane/Divine boons and make a few closing checks, but that isn't game breaking.
I think you're pushing it with that Speed example...
Also, I think "for the purposes of that card" is horrendously vague. What does that even mean? What is the "purpose" of a card? I really don't like this wording, myself.
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Would this open any cans of worms?
When you play a spell that does not have the attack trait, you may substitute all instances of "Arcane" or "Divine" with "Craft" in the powers section of the spell.
But Alahazra's power already should not apply to clouds based on the wording of cloud cards. Hers is relegated to encounter only.
Sorry, I meant in the case of my hypothetical example. I was questioning if they didn't word it like that because they wanted to keep certain types of attack spells unavailable to her.
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But Alahazra's power already should not apply to clouds based on the wording of cloud cards. Hers is relegated to encounter only.Sorry, I meant in the case of my hypothetical example. I was questioning if they didn't word it like that because they wanted to keep certain types of attack spells unavailable to her.
Gotcha
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Would this open any cans of worms?
When you play a spell that does not have the attack trait, you may substitute all instances of "Arcane" or "Divine" with "Craft" in the powers section of the spell.
I actually think this is worse than the others. I understand the intent of what you're saying but that's because of the context of this thread. I think it is confusing when just looking at it for the first time. And again, it depends on when this power should kick in. We need some guidance to the intent of the power.
I actually think this is worse than the others. I understand the intent of what you're saying but that's because of the context of this thread. I think it is confusing when just looking at it for the first time. And again, it depends on when this power should kick in. We need some guidance to the intent of the power.Would this open any cans of worms?
When you play a spell that does not have the attack trait, you may substitute all instances of "Arcane" or "Divine" with "Craft" in the powers section of the spell.
How is it confusing? Not that I'm saying it's a great idea, I just don't get why you would need this thread for context. Maybe it's because I've seen similiar card wordings in other games, but it's crystal clear to me... It seems cut and dry. You can use the word Craft instead of the words Arcane or Divine.
Seems reasonable to me.
So "until the end of the step." Let's say we're playing that out as 'explore' step or whatever. Damiel plays aid on a check to acquire Cure. He's now rolling d10+d6+3? Is that the general consensus on how that should play out? In my head, he can use the spells once he's got 'em, but he's got a tough time actually picking it up. I feel like the intent is probably is not to give him Arcane and Divine for the purpose of acquiring cards, but I can't claim to know. I probably wouldn't play it that way without confirmation, though.
How is it confusing? Not that I'm saying it's a great idea, I just don't get why you would need this thread for context. Maybe it's because I've seen similiar card wordings in other games, but it's crystal clear to me... It seems cut and dry. You can use the word Craft instead of the words Arcane or Divine.I actually think this is worse than the others. I understand the intent of what you're saying but that's because of the context of this thread. I think it is confusing when just looking at it for the first time. And again, it depends on when this power should kick in. We need some guidance to the intent of the power.Would this open any cans of worms?
When you play a spell that does not have the attack trait, you may substitute all instances of "Arcane" or "Divine" with "Craft" in the powers section of the spell.
I don't see it as confusing either... and actually I think it works as the designers intended. He is getting to play non attack spells and recharge them, but he isn't able to acquire those cards as easily either. I think it would work great.
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Your way works well Orbis, with one caveat -- we would need to add a piece to make sure the players are not actually making a Craft check. It doesn't matter from the cards I've seen, but it could in the future. The power is not supposed to have him making Craft checks for the spells, just making his magical abilities as powerful as his Craft.
Damiel (Genadier) Power Feat:
"When you succeed at a Craft check, you may examine the top card of your deck; if it is an item, you may add it to your hand."
Yep, I'd say you have a valid concern, Andrew.
Your way works well Orbis, with one caveat -- we would need to add a piece to make sure the players are not actually making a Craft check. It doesn't matter from the cards I've seen, but it could in the future. The power is not supposed to have him making Craft checks for the spells, just making his magical abilities as powerful as his Craft.
Is that really necessary? Again, I'm not saying my idea is perfect or even championing it, I'm just discussing. What difference does it really make if he's recharging his spell with a Craft check instead of an Arcane/Divine check?
Ninja'd by the answer I was looking for!
Hmm, good catch. I'll think on it.
Perhaps he could have the skills printed on his card and have the following power:
You can only use your Arcane or Divine skills for spells without the "attack" trait.
Perhaps he could have the skills printed on his card and have the following power:
You can only use your Arcane or Divine skills for spells without the "attack" trait.
That would be more confusing. In that case he always had the trait even if he can't use it so he'd never have to banish any spells. Also that would apply to acquiring them which his current power doesn't.
Perhaps "You may make checks on spell cards without the attack trait as if you had the skills 'Arcane: Craft' and 'Divine: Craft'" ?
Edit: Nevermind, that wording worked better for the older format of the recharge box. Plus, it could be interpreted as if he could use the Craft skill to acquire the spell.
Perhaps, just cut to the heart of the matter... "When you play or recharge a spell that does not have the Attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill until the end of the step."
That would be more confusing. In that case he always had the trait even if he can't use it so he'd never have to banish any spells. Also that would apply to acquiring them which his current power doesn't.Perhaps he could have the skills printed on his card and have the following power:
You can only use your Arcane or Divine skills for spells without the "attack" trait.
Well I guess it is more confusing because I disagree... lol.
Well, haven't they brought the term "checks against" into the game to refer to any check a given card requires or allows? So how about just saying you get Arcane or Divine equal to your x skill for checks against any spell card you play that has (or doesn't have, depending on who we're talking about) the attack trait?
The "you play" bit makes it clear that this doesn't apply when attempting to acquire. Seems like this would give the ability to effectively play and recharge the appropriate spells (if that is, as we suspect, indeed the intention) without worrying about exactly how long you are granting the ability for.
Then you don't have the skill when you play the card, so you never get to make the recharge check. Insta-banish.
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The biggest problem I'm running into is space. I can make a foolproof wording, but it's at least a full line longer than what's already there.
Vic, I feel your pain (some of it).
The problem we have is not knowing what is coming. For instance:
While playing or recharging a spell without the attack trait, you gain the skills Arcane and Divine equal to your Craft skill.
That would work pretty well, but if there was any spell that was displayed and had you using your Arcane or Divine a few times after playing it, Daniel wouldn't be able to use it well. Or if a spell was buried when played with a check to discard instead, he again has a problem.
And this:
For spells without the Attack trait, you may use Craft in place of Arcane or Divine.
That would let him acquire them better as well, which he seems not intended to do.
It is quite tricky.