Anyone deal with the Barbarian Come and Get Me Guardian build yet?


Wrath of the Righteous

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This is the combination that I have to deal with that Paizo has allowed into their game.

Barbarian level 12
Mythic Combat Reflexes
Come and Get Me
Greater Beast Totem

Guardian Path available in Mythic Tier 1 powers:

1. Ever Ready (Ex): Whenever you make an attack of opportunity, you gain a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to your mythic tier. You can make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed, even if you don't have the Combat Reflexes feat. At 3rd, 6th, and 9th tier, the number of attacks of opportunity you can make each round increases by one.

2. Retributive Reach (Ex): Treat your reach as 5 feet greater than normal for the purpose of determining whether or not you can make an attack of opportunity. If a creature provokes an attack of opportunity within this area of increased reach, you can expend one use of mythic power to gain a bonus equal to your tier on the attack roll and damage roll of the attack of opportunity.

This makes it impossible for anything to fight the barbarian in melee without receiving an AoO counter-attack. If they attempt to move farther than 10 feet away, he will pounce on them for full attacks closing the distance.

This combination not only screws the DM, but screws the player as well. I will have absolutely no choice but to employ very dirty tactics to hammer the barbarian character. Paizo has created a rule combination that hurts the DM by making it impossible to challenge the barbarian with this combination in melee combat where he shines, but at the same time hurts the player because the DM will have to counter this complete and utter ridiculous combination Paizo's rule team didn't foresee by not ever allowing a serious enemy to get into melee combat with him.

How can Paizo's rule team take such pain staking effort to change Crane Style single block, while at the same time allowing this insanely overpowered combination that no other character but the barbarian can do to exist? Have any of you had this in your epic game yet? It's coming my way. I want to know how you dealt with it. I feel my only option is going to be to completely avoid the barbarian in melee and do mean stuff to him like constant disarms, no save spells, and ranged attacks. Paizo not limiting this combination has screwed this player. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with him to tone this down when Paizo should have never even allowed it in the game.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Beast Totem is wasted on mythic, the player can get Fleet Warrior at tier 3, which is better in almost all circumstances.


magnuskn wrote:
Beast Totem is wasted on mythic, the player can get Fleet Warrior at tier 3, which is better in almost all circumstances.

He's going guardian path, so no fleet warrior unless he chooses dual path.

Beast Totem still offers +6 natural armor bonus, which cancels out Reckless Abandon AC reduction. Greater Beast Totem is a charge attack that grants +2 bonus to hit. Saves a mythic path ability as well that he can spend somewhere else.

The player has thought this out very carefully. He is picking up Greater Elemental Blood to eliminate any difficult terrain obstacles or flying that might prevent a charge attack. He is picking up Retributive Reach so that he can AoO anything within 10 feet. Anything that attempts to move more than 10 feet away he can charge, thus taking full advantage of Greater Beast Totem.

I've done my best to analyze this combination to find a weakness. I have found none other than grappling, which he'll counter with freedom of movement. Disarming, which he'll attempt to counter with a locked gauntlet. Sundering, which he intends to counter by obtaining an artifact weapon that can't be sundered. And just the cruel hit him lots of ranged attacks, invisible attackers, single attack Mythic Vital Strike with Foe-Biter, flying creatures with 15 foot reach (when space allows), and immobilize him with no save spells.

I'll let him shine quite a bit, because I'm not a jerk. But boy, nothing can use the standard melee attack against him and hope to live save perhaps a Mythic Vital Striker with Foe-Biter or another similar barbarian build. Going to be nasty to deal with. They have a lot of melee attackers in Wrath of the Righteous.

By the end of the adventure, his character will become known as Marilith Bane. All those arms and attacks are going to do nothing but lead to the Marilith's death. Not even Baphoment could go toe to toe with the barbarian in a melee fight.

Silver Crusade

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A: The more complex this system become, the more likely things like this are going to be. It is going to happen.

B: You can still say no to come and get me.

C: This tactic goes online at level 12, plenty of time to kill the character, and if it doesn't work there are plenty of options.

DR: If the enemy DR is significant enough, even all those attacks will not sting that much.

Confusion and mind control, ranged attacks of all kinds, mirrors of opposition, fire shield and similar effects, swarms that immune to weapon damage and plenty of other effects.

HOWEVER, just like dealing with archers this can feel quite unfair for the player, instead of every enemy suddenly having wind wall or fickle winds active .. other things happen.

One of the problems here is, that the downsides (suffering more damage) are almost entirely eaten by that insane trait. But since you go for superpowerfull you might as well leave them in there.

From your second post, I assume that you don't really want help, cause I know how this tango is played:

GM"My player is overpowered"
US"So just do not allow the overpowered option/combination"
GM"But ... ... ... reasons."
US"So just use the following things"
GM"But that isn't fun for the player, he will feel unfairly victimized"
US"Well yeah, if I you make yourself almost immune to getting hit on the head, people will start kicking you in the stomach."

But yeah, a witch or a magus with the evil eye and retribution hexes should ruin the barbarians day, there are other spells and effects.

So yeah to reiterate my first suggestion, kill it with fire.

And a question, how is that character supposed to heal ?

Other than the oracle, but that healing will feel like a drop in the bucket.

Shadow Lodge

Sebastian hits it on the head. A character that's super-specialized like this may be awesome when they can pull their schtick off, but intelligent enemies - especially those with reason and ability to know the party's tactics in advance, like Baphomet - will eventually learn to avoid triggering his special trick and will go with alternate methods of getting at him (spells, ranged attacks, and so forth). Sure he can pounce, but can he charge 100+ feet and still make those attacks? Remember the range on a Longbow is 120 feet, and that's prior to any feats or enhancements that increase the range. Spells can have even longer ranges, especially for some evocations, and casters can use things like greater invisibility to avoid getting noticed before they can get a closer-range spell off, then fly away.

It's how the game works. You can make a decent all-around generalist "jack of all trades, master of none" character, who has a decent chance at using most any style but won't be as good at any of them as a specialist. Or you can do like this barbarian has done, super-specialize, and have to learn how to deal with things that don't fall within the spectrum of your specialization.

Quote:
And a question, how is that character supposed to heal ?

I don't see anything in the suggested statblocks that prevents them from getting healed by a caster ally or potions. I presume the party cleric/whatever will have Faith's Reach and can stand back a ways and toss over a healing spell as necessary. If the barbarian's level 12+, so will any caster in the party (presumingly) be, meaning they'll have access to heal. (Unless of course they don't have a cleric/oracle/witch in the group, or they chose not to take that spell for some inexplicable reason...)

Silver Crusade

Orthos wrote:

Sebastian hits it on the head. A character that's super-specialized like this may be awesome when they can pull their schtick off, but intelligent enemies - especially those with reason and ability to know the party's tactics in advance, like Baphomet - will eventually learn to avoid triggering his special trick and will go with alternate methods of getting at him (spells, ranged attacks, and so forth). Sure he can pounce, but can he charge 100+ feet and still make those attacks? Remember the range on a Longbow is 120 feet, and that's prior to any feats or enhancements that increase the range. Spells can have even longer ranges, especially for some evocations, and casters can use things like greater invisibility to avoid getting noticed before they can get a closer-range spell off, then fly away.

It's how the game works. You can make a decent all-around generalist "jack of all trades, master of none" character, who has a decent chance at using most any style but won't be as good at any of them as a specialist. Or you can do like this barbarian has done, super-specialize, and have to learn how to deal with things that don't fall within the spectrum of your specialization.

Quote:
And a question, how is that character supposed to heal ?
I don't see anything in the suggested statblocks that prevents them from getting healed by a caster ally or potions. I presume the party cleric/whatever will have Faith's Reach and can stand back a ways and toss over a healing spell as necessary. If the barbarian's level 12+, so will any caster in the party (presumingly) be, meaning they'll have access to heal. (Unless of course they don't have a cleric/oracle/witch in the group, or they chose not to take that spell for some inexplicable reason...)

And remember that ranged weapons just inflict a -2 penalty on the attack roll per further range increment. With the Warpriest and his minor blessing (air ?) you could hit from more than a 1000 ft. away.

Piccolo mentioned it in other places, the barbarian is going to be

Superstition (Ex). Just reread the damn thing, not having to resist spells outside combat rather ruins my point.

A real shame, that the barbarian doesn't have to resist the breath of life cast by his allies.

Shadow Lodge

Did... did you just cut yourself off with the realization? That's kind of funny. =)

Silver Crusade

Orthos wrote:
Did... did you just cut yourself off with the realization? That's kind of funny. =)

Yeah kinda, I could swear though, that there was some kind of ability like this, where a character could not voluntarily accept a spell under any circumstances. Must have been in 3.5. Most things were.

Shadow Lodge

You're probably thinking of the "Rahadoumi Disbeliever" Trait. (I don't recall what PFSRD renamed it to, but you should be able to find it easily.)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You're thinking of the Forsaker from 3e.

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

Or that >_>


My problem is that Paizo never should have allowed this combination to begin with. It's way, way, way more overpowered than Crane Style deflection. Yet they made sure to reduce that, yet Come and Get Me has remained in the game as it is. Then they release Mythic Combat Reflexes.

It further proves my point that the game developers don't care about this game past the fairly early levels. They spend almost no time balancing the high level game. They completely ignore the high level game because so few players play it. It's very frustrating for those of us that point out vastly overpowered combinations like this, but receive no attention. I'm a player. I play the high level game. Why should have to get in arguments with my players because Paizo releases something that is vastly better than any other option, but because it's past level 10 it will never get fixed?

Why even make the game past level 10 (maybe level 7 given they haven't reigned in Dazing Spell either), if they don't intend to balance it past that level? I don't understand why they did it and continue to do it. Seems like a lot of wasted time writing, if you ask me.


Why does everyone bring up the intelligent enemies argument, while forgetting that the barbarian also has a group of intelligent friends helping him? Did you forget the other members of the party also engaging in intelligent action to set the barbarian up? Sure, if the barbarian running around by himself, he would die a lot of time. He couldn't heal fast enough. Someone with invisibility would waste him. He might get wasted level drainers.

That's not usually the case. Usually he's backed up by a powerful party of adventurers using their own intelligent tactics to crush the enemy. One of the things they do is set up the barbarian, so he can pounce kill something and use his Come and Get Me if that thing tries to fight back.

That's one of the main problems when you insert an overpowered ability like Come and Get Me with Mythic Combat Reflexes. You leave the DM no other option but viciously compensate to create a challenge because he has to challenge the entire party. It's a poorly designed rule that creates so many problems for DMs and players that it hurts gameplay. Paizo should look into this and fix it. Make it official, so I don't have to get in arguments with players. I wish they would start fixing other problematic abilities like they did Crane Style. There are a whole bunch of problem abilities that are far worse than Crane Style. They should start fixing a bunch of them to make them usable, but not so powerful as to be abused.

Orthos wrote:

Sebastian hits it on the head. A character that's super-specialized like this may be awesome when they can pull their schtick off, but intelligent enemies - especially those with reason and ability to know the party's tactics in advance, like Baphomet - will eventually learn to avoid triggering his special trick and will go with alternate methods of getting at him (spells, ranged attacks, and so forth). Sure he can pounce, but can he charge 100+ feet and still make those attacks? Remember the range on a Longbow is 120 feet, and that's prior to any feats or enhancements that increase the range. Spells can have even longer ranges, especially for some evocations, and casters can use things like greater invisibility to avoid getting noticed before they can get a closer-range spell off, then fly away.

It's how the game works. You can make a decent all-around generalist "jack of all trades, master of none" character, who has a decent chance at using most any style but won't be as good at any of them as a specialist. Or you can do like this barbarian has done, super-specialize, and have to learn how to deal with things that don't fall within the spectrum of your specialization.

Quote:
And a question, how is that character supposed to heal ?
I don't see anything in the suggested statblocks that prevents them from getting healed by a caster ally or potions. I presume the party cleric/whatever will have Faith's Reach and can stand back a ways and toss over a healing spell as necessary. If the barbarian's level 12+, so will any caster in the party (presumingly) be, meaning they'll have access to heal. (Unless of course they don't have a cleric/oracle/witch in the group, or they chose not to take that spell for some inexplicable reason...)

Shadow Lodge

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Once again another thread where you clearly have no interest in actually getting assistance or recommendations and are just here to vent and yell at Paizo.

I have better things to read with my time. Goodbye.

Silver Crusade

Aelryinth wrote:

You're thinking of the Forsaker from 3e.

==Aelryinth

Thank you, I shudder when I think about it. So many poor magic items where destroyed.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Ok to make this short and sweet, would I like Paizo to fix some combinations I personally think are broken, yes.

Will it happen, no.

Do I think Gunslingers with perma stun, a magus taking down a dragon with a critical calcific touch, ranger archers with APG spells...... will be changed any time soon? No.

Just cause two rules create a very powerful combo doesn't mean that Paizo has to see everything. And frankly some of the mythic feats are pretty much garbage.

Just look at mythic power attack and mythic furious focus.

I think it bears repeating, you have to decide between buffing the monsters or nerfing the players, the end result might be the same.
Just saying.

And I still don't see why dazing spell is apparently so good.

The fact that the party is very effective, is nothing new and I am still arguing, that their power equals about 2 parties, not 1 1/2.

I'll try to go into more detail tomorrow, but at this point most suggestions will be how to handle the players given the information you provided. If you give different, or more loot, or allow for more crafting time (ENFORCE THE LIMITS FROM ULTIMATE CAMPAIGN AT ALL TIMES^^) things will change.

In this case the player seems to have found a nice combo (oh and remember you can still sunder the armor, or the gauntlet. "Attacking him is rather vague). But yeah, plenty of ways around that, and killing the rest of the party first, should make things easier.
If that is your mindset, but to be honest, if the players come to the table with some hyper competitive build, this seems like a declaration of war.

IIRC Come and Get me is based on Robiliars Gamit, some beast from the dark ages (3.5), is apparently some important fighter from Greyhawk with a metal horse.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

the problem i see unfolding with wrath of the righteous is everyone wants to be the heavy hitter, the adventure path isnt written for a party of 4 heavy hitters and certainly not 6!


I think Come and Get Me is a really poorly thought-out ability as a rage power. As a Ftr10+ feat, it would have been fine. As with any arms race, there are counters to it. Some of these counters are so niche that they do feel like picking on the player if they are used. Others are not so niche (cover to block AOOs). Still, Pathfinder seems to have a few of them, so you can mix them up.

Litany of Sloth destroys CAGM. Slow Reactions rogue talent is harder to pull off against a barbarian, but Arcane Trickster can do it. Also note that cover blocks AOOs (so high-AC enemy adjacent, and the high-offense enemy with reach behind him, or even just attacking around a corner). Total concealment also blocks AOOs.

It's also quite possible for a fighter-type to get an AC so high that an equal-CR barbarian has a very hard time hitting it; Aldori Swordlord not only can do this (with even the nerfed Crane Wing being useful), but has specific anti-barbarian abilities. Magus types might use Mirror Image or Displacement to reduce the risk of CAGM counterattacks. Swashbucklers can use Targeted Strike, with Parry to negate the counterattack. Alchemists' bombs can do Wisdom damage with no save, although Ghost Rager pretty much shuts that down.


Aldizog wrote:

I think Come and Get Me is a really poorly thought-out ability as a rage power. As a Ftr10+ feat, it would have been fine. As with any arms race, there are counters to it. Some of these counters are so niche that they do feel like picking on the player if they are used. Others are not so niche (cover to block AOOs). Still, Pathfinder seems to have a few of them, so you can mix them up.

Litany of Sloth destroys CAGM. Slow Reactions rogue talent is harder to pull off against a barbarian, but Arcane Trickster can do it. Also note that cover blocks AOOs (so high-AC enemy adjacent, and the high-offense enemy with reach behind him, or even just attacking around a corner). Total concealment also blocks AOOs.

It's also quite possible for a fighter-type to get an AC so high that an equal-CR barbarian has a very hard time hitting it; Aldori Swordlord not only can do this (with even the nerfed Crane Wing being useful), but has specific anti-barbarian abilities. Magus types might use Mirror Image or Displacement to reduce the risk of CAGM counterattacks. Swashbucklers can use Targeted Strike, with Parry to negate the counterattack. Alchemists' bombs can do Wisdom damage with no save, although Ghost Rager pretty much shuts that down.

That's helpful. I'll have to remember Litany of Sloth. They will be fighting a ton of anti-paladins. I plan on throwing in some Inquisitors. They'll counter Litany of Sloth with Spell Immunity. It will at least work now and then for a round or two.

The cover is useful. I do use that when I can.

The high AC can be done, but that usually lowers damage output. With the mythic power that boosts attack and damage rolls for AoOs by tier along with Reckless Abandon, his hit roll is super high. Very hard to counter.

Litany of Sloth and Corruption Resistance are two major spells I'll use to deal with the barbarian and paladin.

Fortunately for a certain encounter later on, they built disarm into the encounter. The opponent in question gets 16 attacks per round. All that will end up being is 16 AoOs from the barbarian. But she's a disarm specialist, so she'll work to take his sword. As far as I know a combat maneuver does not count as an attack for Come and Get Me. It replaces the attack. So she'll take the weapon before she gets hammered. But I'll have to have someone in place to counter the archers.

One of the big problems is that Paizo doesn't include casters in many of their designed encounters along with their brutes or other enemies. Sending a Marilith or dragon solo against a party with damage dealers, caster, and healer is guaranteeing death for that monster. They don't often have access to the options needed to counter what the party does. PC parties have access to every book. Whereas most monsters are built using the core rules and have very weak backup. Makes for an unfair fight from the get.


Orthos wrote:

Once again another thread where you clearly have no interest in actually getting assistance or recommendations and are just here to vent and yell at Paizo.

I have better things to read with my time. Goodbye.

I don't need much (if any) assistance as a DM other than Paizo to stop releasing combinations like this. I've been DMing over 30 years. Of course I don't need much assistance. It's a rare event that someone introduces an idea as a DM that I have not already thought of.

My problem is not my DMing skill. I'm about as good as they come at challenging players. That's why I can run a high-powered mythic campaign and have any hope of challenging my players without killing them. Because that's also the goal...not to kill them and make it fun, while challenging them. But when stuff like this gets put in the game, Paizo makes that very hard to do for the reasons I have already explained.

If you want to toss out ideas, maybe you'll throw out something I've forgotten like Litany of Sloth. The litany spells are so rarely used in my campaigns, I forgot about that one. That is going to be very helpful as a DM given the setting. If there weren't many Inquisitors or anti-paladins, it wouldn't be. But there is in Wrath of the Righteous. That spell is going to be used a lot at higher level.

For the most part, I've covered my bases on what the party will do. Come and Get Me combined with pounce and DR and +30 saves across the board and supernatural flight and 600 hit points is a nightmare to deal with that far exceeds what any other martial can do.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

A: The more complex this system become, the more likely things like this are going to be. It is going to happen.

B: You can still say no to come and get me.

C: This tactic goes online at level 12, plenty of time to kill the character, and if it doesn't work there are plenty of options.

DR: If the enemy DR is significant enough, even all those attacks will not sting that much.

Confusion and mind control, ranged attacks of all kinds, mirrors of opposition, fire shield and similar effects, swarms that immune to weapon damage and plenty of other effects.

HOWEVER, just like dealing with archers this can feel quite unfair for the player, instead of every enemy suddenly having wind wall or fickle winds active .. other things happen.

One of the problems here is, that the downsides (suffering more damage) are almost entirely eaten by that insane trait. But since you go for superpowerfull you might as well leave them in there.

From your second post, I assume that you don't really want help, cause I know how this tango is played:

GM"My player is overpowered"
US"So just do not allow the overpowered option/combination"
GM"But ... ... ... reasons."
US"So just use the following things"
GM"But that isn't fun for the player, he will feel unfairly victimized"
US"Well yeah, if I you make yourself almost immune to getting hit on the head, people will start kicking you in the stomach."

But yeah, a witch or a magus with the evil eye and retribution hexes should ruin the barbarians day, there are other spells and effects.

So yeah to reiterate my first suggestion, kill it with fire.

And a question, how is that character supposed to heal ?

Other than the oracle, but that healing will feel like a drop in the bucket.

When you're talking to me, understand you're talking to a person that's been gaming since his youth. I've been playing since the red D&D book all the way up to Pathfinder.

I have no interest in killing my players. I consider them the hero of the story. My objective is to challenge them, not to kill them.

A player makes a barbarian to enter melee combat. If the game makes it impossible to challenge said barbarian when he enters melee combat, then why did the player make the barbarian? It is the job of a game designer to make a class playable. When a player makes a barbarian, he can enter melee combat and have a good fight swinging back and forth with whatever big bad monster or NPC he is fighting.

When the game rules make it so the barbarian gets all his own attacks and then an attack for each attack his enemy gets, the game system is asking the DM to provide a challenge for a PC attacking twice as often as his opponent for similar damage. That does not work mathematically. It makes it nearly impossible to challenge the barbarian in the types of fights he would most enjoy.

Instead, you must employ cruel tactics that negate his favorite form of fighting. In essence, you are negating the reason he made a barbarian: to get into melee combat and fight like a psychotic rager. This harms the player as much as the DM.

Right now, people are giving advice that tells me how to kill the barbarian. I don't need that kind of advice. A DM can kill any player. That is easy, very easy. We DMs have all the power. We can design absurd encounters to kill any player or PC group.

The real challenge as a DM is to make the game fun and challenging. You want your players to enjoy their characters. You want them to be able to do what they designed their characters to do. If one of your players plays a barbarian, you want him to get into melee combat and have a great fight. What you don't want is him to have such an overpowered option in melee that anyone that tries to fight him in melee will lose within a round or two at most because he gets double his normal number of attacks. AoOs are at full BAB for each attack, so they are even better than the attacks he is getting attacked by.

This is my conundrum. It isn't "I can't challenge this guy at all." It isn't "Come up with some crazy encounter to hammer my party." It's "Why did Paizo make the barbarian so powerful in melee that you can't use melee encounters to challenge him with any regularity." That's my problem.

My player wants to have fun fighting in melee. If I put him in melee, nothing will challenge him. He'll kill it on its turn nearly 80 to 90% of the time making full BAB AoOs before each opponent's attack. It puts us DMs in a real bad position. I don't like depriving my player of his abilities to challenge him, but I don't see any other choice the majority of the time against the barbarian with Come and Get Me, especially so in mythic. It's a real problem when a game provides options that make it nearly impossible to both let the player have fun and challenge them.


Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:

I don't need much (if any) assistance as a DM other than Paizo to stop releasing combinations like this. I've been DMing over 30 years. Of course I don't need much assistance. It's a rare event that someone introduces an idea as a DM that I have not already thought of.

My problem is not my DMing skill. I'm about as good as they come at challenging players. That's why I can run a high-powered mythic campaign and have any hope of challenging my players without killing them. Because that's also the goal...not to kill them and make it fun, while challenging them. But when stuff like this gets put in the game, Paizo makes that very hard to do for the reasons I have already explained.

I disagreed quite vociferously with the introduction of the Mythic ruleset - I disagreed that it was needed to tell this particular story and I disagreed with the presumption that 'more rules = better rules', but predictably my objections went largely unheard, drowned out by the chorus of 'MOAR!', so I simply chose to exercise my privilege as GM to not use the rules. We just recently finished a completely Mythic-free run of Wrath of the Righteous and it was one of the best campaigns we've ever had, second only to a very memorable Skull n' Shackles AP.

I find that its almost always better to decide ahead of time what it is you want in your games, rather than to give your players free reign from the outset to do as they like and then spend all your time trying to stop them from doing what they like after the fact. That puts you in danger of becoming adversarial with them which can be a terrible position when the entire goal is cooperative story-telling.

Just my two cents.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Umm.... use creatures with greater reach, mythic power attack and mythic vital strike? Not too hard to find counters.

Silver Crusade

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Wiggz wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:

I don't need much (if any) assistance as a DM other than Paizo to stop releasing combinations like this. I've been DMing over 30 years. Of course I don't need much assistance. It's a rare event that someone introduces an idea as a DM that I have not already thought of.

My problem is not my DMing skill. I'm about as good as they come at challenging players. That's why I can run a high-powered mythic campaign and have any hope of challenging my players without killing them. Because that's also the goal...not to kill them and make it fun, while challenging them. But when stuff like this gets put in the game, Paizo makes that very hard to do for the reasons I have already explained.

I disagreed quite vociferously with the introduction of the Mythic ruleset - I disagreed that it was needed to tell this particular story and I disagreed with the presumption that 'more rules = better rules', but predictably my objections went largely unheard, drowned out by the chorus of 'MOAR!', so I simply chose to exercise my privilege as GM to not use the rules. We just recently finished a completely Mythic-free run of Wrath of the Righteous and it was one of the best campaigns we've ever had, second only to a very memorable Skull n' Shackles AP.

I find that its almost always better to decide ahead of time what it is you want in your games, rather than to give your players free reign from the outset to do as they like and then spend all your time trying to stop them from doing what they like after the fact. That puts you in danger of becoming adversarial with them which can be a terrible position when the entire goal is cooperative story-telling.

Just my two cents.

I think that the mythic rulesset has the distinct potential for less rules, if used correctly.

Silver Crusade

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

A: The more complex this system become, the more likely things like this are going to be. It is going to happen.

B: You can still say no to come and get me.

C: This tactic goes online at level 12, plenty of time to kill the character, and if it doesn't work there are plenty of options.

DR: If the enemy DR is significant enough, even all those attacks will not sting that much.

Confusion and mind control, ranged attacks of all kinds, mirrors of opposition, fire shield and similar effects, swarms that immune to weapon damage and plenty of other effects.

HOWEVER, just like dealing with archers this can feel quite unfair for the player, instead of every enemy suddenly having wind wall or fickle winds active .. other things happen.

One of the problems here is, that the downsides (suffering more damage) are almost entirely eaten by that insane trait. But since you go for superpowerfull you might as well leave them in there.

From your second post, I assume that you don't really want help, cause I know how this tango is played:

GM"My player is overpowered"
US"So just do not allow the overpowered option/combination"
GM"But ... ... ... reasons."
US"So just use the following things"
GM"But that isn't fun for the player, he will feel unfairly victimized"
US"Well yeah, if I you make yourself almost immune to getting hit on the head, people will start kicking you in the stomach."

But yeah, a witch or a magus with the evil eye and retribution hexes should ruin the barbarians day, there are other spells and effects.

So yeah to reiterate my first suggestion, kill it with fire.

And a question, how is that character supposed to heal ?

Other than the oracle, but that healing will feel like a drop in the bucket.

When you're talking to me, understand you're talking to a person that's been gaming since his youth. I've been playing since the red D&D book all the way up to Pathfinder.

I have no interest in killing my players. I...

Just forbid the damn combo. Or just Mythic Combat Reflexes. The limited nature of combat reflexes is the only thing that keeps this combo sane.

It is a bit like menthos and coke, they are ok do consume separately but once you combine it. you get a big mess.

You will have to decided what sources you want to allow, my suggestion would be to talk to your player about the combo, and what is likely to happen.


A mythic character is proving problematic?! :O


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yup, the obvious advise is to ignore mythic and it will go away.


Ways to deal with characters with a ton of AoOs that don't rely on saving throws-

Mirror Image.
Blur/Displacement.
Deeper Darkness.
Mind Fog/Cloudkill/Fog Cloud/Solid Fog
Wall spells (all of them)
Litany of Sloth
Acrobatics skill (pump up with magic items)
Stealth skill
Casting Defensively
Disarm
Trip
Adamantine Net/Lasso
Rusting Grasp
Ranged attacks
Magic missile vollys

I'm sure there are others that you can think of. It's a Mythic game. Don't play fair.


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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

There's also the option of sitting down with the player and explaining exactly what you just said.

"I can tell from the character you're describing that what you want to do is get into melee and be a big, deadly bruiser. However, the build you've described is so good at melee that I'm concerned that it's impossible to challenge your character without negating his entire concept. Let's look at some constructing some house rules and/or adjustments to your build so that we can all be happy."

Of course, it's also possible the player is looking to design an invulnerable, ultra-deadly blender of doom, and doesn't want to be challenged; I can't say, as I don't know the player. Maybe he wants to feel like he's steamrolling everything in his path.

Unfortunately, nobody, game designer or not, is perfect. Games like Pathfinder tend to break down as more and more material gets released, and players have more time than designers to invest in identifying rules synergies. I've put together a couple of very interesting builds in my time, often by combining a couple of relatively obscure rules sources that were never really intended to be used together (at least in the sense that they were designed without knowledge of each other).

Couple that with the increased complexity of high-level play itself, and yes, there's a lot of potential for the game to break down. The best solution I'm aware of is to look at what breaks the fun of the game for you and your group, and look into addressing those things, quite possibly by banning them.


It's great that the party will work together to overcome obstacles. It sounds like they'll use Spell Immunity and Freedom of Movement on the barbarian to keep him doing his thing; it's not a one-man show.

So I think you need to talk to all of them, not just the barbarian's player.

They have figured out combinations of abilities that will make published adventure paths trivial. If you wanted to use published adventures, you should use ones for PCs 2-4 levels higher. Or maybe give the PCs 2 fewer mythic tiers than recommended, or give the monsters more mythic tiers, or something.

Be up front with the players. "Published adventure paths are balanced for pregens. They are not balanced for optimized characters, which you are. Since you are all 12th level, do you want to play the paths for level 14 characters or for level 16? Or do you want me to take this 12th-level adventure and boost it up to be a challenge?"


I'll do it as I usually do. Make enemies that can withstand what they can do. I doubt the barbarian would play a barbarian if I removed Come and Get Me. If I start nerfing spells, then I'll hear complaints about melee or archery from the caster players. Finding agreement on what should be removed and what should stay in is usually a big argument with lots of counter-arguments as the players don't like giving up the things that make them over-powered because they perceive some other class as having an over-powered combination.

Easier as a DM to let them take the abilities and counter their use on the back end with no arguing. They don't know what monsters can do. One nice thing about the mythic rules that I like is the DM can write up anything he feels like writing up for the monsters and its legal by the rules. It's pretty much encouraged. I'll write some crazy stuff up and run it to counter the insane abilities of the PCs.

Silver Crusade

Then just ban Mythic Combat Reflexes. As a GM you can already limit the number of free actions, and deciding that limiting AOOs before the topic of air friction becomes an issue ... seems sane.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Then just ban Mythic Combat Reflexes. As a GM you can already limit the number of free actions, and deciding that limiting AOOs before the topic of air friction becomes an issue ... seems sane.

I will not be banning stuff that other characters can use in a reasonable manner. Come and Get Me is the problem, not Combat Reflexes. It was a problem without mythic, mythic just made it worse. If I ban Come and Get Me, I end up in an argument with one of my players and he'll feel I'm ruining his character concept. Then he'll start b%#&@ing every time someone else uses something he thinks is over-powered. There are plenty of other problems in this game.

I voiced my opinion to Paizo. Their concerns seem to end at level 12 because that is where Pathfinder Society ends their games. I'm done with Paizo after this AP. That's the answer I came up with.

You seem to not mind supporting poorly designed rules because you feel doing their work for them is an acceptable use of your time. I don't feel it is an acceptable use of my time. They have lost me as a customer. They won't get me back until they clean up their rule set.

I supported them when they split off from D&D and went with 4E. Now I feel they are like 4E: a badly designed game that is not very fun to play. Too much rules bloat. Too little oversight on how all these rules work together. No support past level 12. This feels exactly like 3E at the end of their cycle when the bloat ruined the game. If Paizo doesn't want to exercise stronger oversight, I can find other things to spend my money on.

That's my answer to this conundrum. Last AP for me. Story is good. That part I'll enjoy. Rule system is going to be a real pain in my behind. I hope I'm able to finish this without burning out. I'll find out soon enough as they're hitting mythic very soon.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It doesn't matter as you seem to ignoring everyone's advice anyways but...

Come and get it won't change much of anything, only make things faster. Most of these fights only last 1-2 rounds anyways so the ability to make multiple AoO isn't game breaking, it just turns into a drunken brawl.

How many 150 hp hits do you think that barbarian can take in one round? Because with buffed, mythic creatures they will be hitting very hard. Just keep hitting him, monsters are endless and you can always make more.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

yeah i don't get it, you sit there complaining how "broken" higher level pathfinder is and especially mythic adventures as it relates to wrath of the righteous, yet you don't consider anyone's advice, even tho they've come up with decent ideas. so what gives, are these threads just so you have a soapbox to complain or do you actually hope to accomplish something?

i'm kinda lost here, you type a lot of words but i'm not sure if you're actually saying much.....


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I stopped reading at "high level characters with Mythic levels".


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you are this disspirited about this AP even before you have hit mythic levels, you might as well spare yourself (and your players) having to break off the campaign when you are fully invested.

I myself broke off two Kingmaker campaigns early because I hated the story aspect and other problems of that AP. With WotR, I am already at the end of book four and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel (14 more encounters to go, by my calculation). If I had the foreknowledge of all the BS going on with mythic rules before deciding on this AP, you can be sure that I would have rather run Reign of Winter of Shattered Star. Now, since I am committed, I just take all the ridiculousness as a source of bitter amusement.

Silver Crusade

magnuskn wrote:

If you are this disspirited about this AP even before you have hit mythic levels, you might as well spare yourself (and your players) having to break off the campaign when you are fully invested.

I myself broke off two Kingmaker campaigns early because I hated the story aspect and other problems of that AP. With WotR, I am already at the end of book four and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel (14 more encounters to go, by my calculation). If I had the foreknowledge of all the BS going on with mythic rules before deciding on this AP, you can be sure that I would have rather run Reign of Winter of Shattered Star. Now, since I am committed, I just take all the ridiculousness as a source of bitter amusement.

I had to shorten book 6 considerably, even turning the last boss encounter into - lets face it - an animated video.

That AP can use a lot of additions when it comes to the political side, I added a lot, but as written the meta plot that is concluded (and some would argue started) is completely missed by the players. I get why, you don't want your players running off to fight the BBEG as soon as they can afford plane shift, but yeah.

As a player and self confessed power gamer (and anime fan, that is pretty important) I am still kinda in love with some of the new options and chances for new game play (hell I even started to stat anime characters in the playtest, and I was quite happy with my Bleach Characters).

The Problem really only comes with the disconnect between MA (and you could argue that some of the mythic monsters in said book are already quite anemic when it comes to hp) and WotR.
High level monsters are already.... ah just remember that the CR system is like more like a souflé, so 9/10 you will end up with a disaster^^

Silver Crusade

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Then just ban Mythic Combat Reflexes. As a GM you can already limit the number of free actions, and deciding that limiting AOOs before the topic of air friction becomes an issue ... seems sane.

I will not be banning stuff that other characters can use in a reasonable manner. Come and Get Me is the problem, not Combat Reflexes. It was a problem without mythic, mythic just made it worse. If I ban Come and Get Me, I end up in an argument with one of my players and he'll feel I'm ruining his character concept. Then he'll start b~+#*ing every time someone else uses something he thinks is over-powered. There are plenty of other problems in this game.

I voiced my opinion to Paizo. Their concerns seem to end at level 12 because that is where Pathfinder Society ends their games. I'm done with Paizo after this AP. That's the answer I came up with.

You seem to not mind supporting poorly designed rules because you feel doing their work for them is an acceptable use of your time. I don't feel it is an acceptable use of my time. They have lost me as a customer. They won't get me back until they clean up their rule set.

I supported them when they split off from D&D and went with 4E. Now I feel they are like 4E: a badly designed game that is not very fun to play. Too much rules bloat. Too little oversight on how all these rules work together. No support past level 12. This feels exactly like 3E at the end of their cycle when the bloat ruined the game. If Paizo doesn't want to exercise stronger oversight, I can find other things to spend my money on.

That's my answer to this conundrum. Last AP for me. Story is good. That part I'll enjoy. Rule system is going to be a real pain in my behind. I hope I'm able to finish this without burning out. I'll find out soon enough as they're hitting mythic very soon.

Actually I think come and get me is pretty balanced without mythic, you are limited by the number of AOOs you can make, if you take combat reflexes and have a lower strength for it, all the better.

Now an optimized player will already focus his or her attention on still being unhittable even with rage and the come and get me effect, but it is still reasonable, after all why should only the other classes get great stuff at high levels. Personally I would have added some cost (like more rounds of rage expended for come and get me) but that is just personal preference.

Mythic breaks it. Now let's not be coy, your player is playing something very optimized with this combination and the fact that he wants to play a guardian is certainly a part of it, and while mythic combat reflexes is certainly reasonable for a build with reach, this somewhat obscure combination is just very good.

Once systems reach a certain size, combinations like this are going to happen. Most designers just don't have the system mastery to see every potential combination, and frankly they are creating new material they are already quite busy.

At times like these, they depend on the GMs out there to be the voice of reason. If this is unacceptable to you, that frankly most RPGs will be troublesome once they have reached a certain size.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Come and Get Me and Mythic Reflexes isn't an obscure combination. It's an OBVIOUS combination. CAGM and Pounce are the two most powerful rage powers a barbarian has. Reflexes synergizes just like the basic charge options does. Literally, how could they have missed it?

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
The Problem really only comes with the disconnect between MA (and you could argue that some of the mythic monsters in said book are already quite anemic when it comes to hp) and WotR.

They are exactly as disastrously badly conceived as the ones in WotR and that is about the main problem with Mythic Adventures. The designers completely, utterly fumbled the ball on the ratio of PC to monster power and also seemingly did not math out at all about how much damage characters and monster would deal and be able to take. The result is a mess of a system which, as coming out of the book, turns into an unplayable trainwreck as soon as tier three is hit (unless players nerf their characters on purpose to not take the obviously superior path abilities / mythic feats over the equally obviously underpowered ones).

I don't object to the ridiculously high numbers in Mythic Adventures on principle, but then those have to be matched with an equal ability to endure that kind of damage by the opponents which are supposed to still represent a challenge. This does not happen and this utter failure to present a working system to their customers is a shameful display for Paizo. I expect better of them and so far I have not seen much indication that they are going to better their standards or even try to fix their mistakes. Well, I guess "fixing mistakes" doesn't make money, since they already sold their books. :-/

Silver Crusade

Aelryinth wrote:

Come and Get Me and Mythic Reflexes isn't an obscure combination. It's an OBVIOUS combination. CAGM and Pounce are the two most powerful rage powers a barbarian has. Reflexes synergizes just like the basic charge options does. Literally, how could they have missed it?

==Aelryinth

Compartmentalization.

And lets be clear, a fighter with a big sword and power attack (incl. the mythic version) is an obvious combination.
A rarely used (meaning level 12+, which if Paizos market research is to be believed) ability from a non-core book (yeah APG is pretty much as core as you get outside of the CRB) that interacts with Mythic Combat Reflexes, mythic abilities in general, and guardian path (an optional subset of rules, that frankly not a lot of people will use, unless they plan to play the AP).

The problem, I assume started, when the designers thought about mythic versions for existing feats, without considering the wider implications.
And sometimes the reasoning apparently was "because mythic" without thinking how some of these abilities utterly wrack many campaigns (yeah I have some acid left when it comes to the "undetectable" legendary ability). The desire to give players cool stuff seems to have been superseding the need to provide a proper challenge. And some design choices, like the mythic/nonmythic divide still baffle me.

I still support the idea of an open playtest of the final pdf (just let some of us by it before the book goes to print.

magnuskn wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
The Problem really only comes with the disconnect between MA (and you could argue that some of the mythic monsters in said book are already quite anemic when it comes to hp) and WotR.

They are exactly as disastrously badly conceived as the ones in WotR and that is about the main problem with Mythic Adventures. The designers completely, utterly fumbled the ball on the ratio of PC to monster power and also seemingly did not math out at all about how much damage characters and monster would deal and be able to take. The result is a mess of a system which, as coming out of the book, turns into an unplayable trainwreck as soon as tier three is hit (unless players nerf their characters on purpose to not take the obviously superior path abilities / mythic feats over the equally obviously underpowered ones).

I don't object to the ridiculously high numbers in Mythic Adventures on principle, but then those have to be matched with an equal ability to endure that kind of damage by the opponents which are supposed to still represent a challenge. This does not happen and this utter failure to present a working system to their customers is a shameful display for Paizo. I expect better of them and so far I have not seen much indication that they are going to better their standards or even try to fix their mistakes. Well, I guess "fixing mistakes" doesn't make money, since they already sold their books. :-/

We are a pretty angry lot, aren't we ? To be fair, and I asked Mr Jacobs about this, but taking the time to fix this mess would delay other products, and this might make even more people unhappy.

Now I don't agree 100% here, but I think mythic is pretty much fixed by to community at this point, we literally have had ALL the ideas ^^, the only thing left to do is to create some easy to access repository for these rules.

You could even separate it - suggested modifications for running the WotR adventure path, and general mythic advise. Of course modding the entire campaign (like: Encounter P99 add the advanced simple template to the two demons and add 4 skeletal champions and 10 charmed crussaders level drained to the very edge)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
We are a pretty angry lot, aren't we ? To be fair, and I asked Mr Jacobs about this, but taking the time to fix this mess would delay other products, and this might make even more people unhappy.

I paid something close to 200 Euros for a defective product (the state of which has been corroborated by dozens of people on this board, who had similar experiences with it), which has seriously hampered my enjoyment (and also the same for my six players) of my favorite hobby for the last year. And the excuse for the people selling this product is "yeah, sorry, got more important things to do".

I've said it elsewhere, but it bears repeating: This behaviour from Paizo would be inacceptable in the vast majority of other industries.

I am really astonished that the RPG market makes them such special snowflakes that they have dozens of fans who are falling all over themselves to make excuses for Paizo, instead of demanding that they fix their product (To prevent an misunderstanding, I am not talking about you at all here, but also rather about the general attitude on this message board. Y'know, those people who will almost always jump to Paizo's defense at the first sign of criticism).

Also disheartening to witness is that this attitude on the messageboard encourages Paizo to continue with their policy of "write books with large numbers of mistakes and bad math, don't correct (some) of those mistakes until a second printing, write half-hearted apologies, repeat". Yeah, we've heard sounds of "Occult Adventures will be better" after the ACG drew more complaints than most other releases (but also the same kind of "always defend Paizos mistakes or pretend they don't exist" crowd turned out in force), but this remains to be seen and we got a history of now five years of publishing this RPG behind us to see a clear trajectory.

I better stop now, or I'll be here for another hour writing up a filibuster.


There is always a counter and in this situation try a mythic hungry ghost monk with the panther parry feat. If he tries it the monk kicks him further away before the barbarian can land a hit with thanks to punishing kick.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You're forgetting the monk would have to win the contested roll for the punishing kick, and the punishing kick itself is going to trigger another CaGM AoO.

The only thing you could do about this is some form of attack that could shut down AoO's for a round. There's one in Tome of 9 swords, but alas, that's not mythic rules.

==Aelryinth


Not to mention what does it matter if the monk kicks him away? Then he can't attack him and the barbarian pounces on the monk for a full attack next round. Barbarian is still going to rip the monk apart.

If you want melee concepts that will kill the barbarian, a two-hander Mythic Vital Striker with a Foe-biter weapon has a chance of destroying the barbarian in one mighty hit. A grappler that shuts down freedom of movement can grapple him and do his damage without provoking AoOs. A disarm specialist can take his weapon and then rip him up or at least reduce his attacks to claw damage. Or an anti-paladin with Alignment Insight can align his smite to strike him and also use Mythic Vital Strike or Foe-Biter to hammer him.

This has more to do with creatures like dragons or giants. They have no chance in melee against him. Their options are so incredibly limited.


You do not need to win a contested roll for punishing kick, all you have to do is connect, make the monk like 15th level and give him mythic combat reflexes as well. Use his own tactics against him and pummel the barbarian to death on his turn. Kick him 15ft away and give him combat patrol, the second the barbarian tries to pounce back trip him because monks have a ludicrous amount of movement speed. As for dragons and giants I can see where the problem lies, well not so much for dragons since they can just fly away. I mean he's mythic he must have a reputation by now for what he's doing.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You're not seriously thinking you're going to win an opposed CMD check against a mythic barbarian, are you?

==Aelryinth


EDIT: My math was wrong, but a monster with class levels might stand a chance, or a hungry ghost/master of many styles as an advanced monster can just pummel him as he charges in. Getting hit 4-5 times for a lot of damage is not very nice. I do agree with the OP that the combination is not very party friendly as it seems to negate the need for most of the party except maybe a healer.

Grand Lodge

I’ve been dealing with a Barbarian Come and get Me user for a while to limited and much impassioned results. He uses the same combo and I ruled he could use Come and get Me if we hit at the same time. At least this way I felt like I was dealing some damage to him. I felt like I had a similar situation as Piccolo Taphodarian I really didn’t want to tell my player no but I felt over all I had to. My player’s build is insane but that is to be expected I guess. What starts endless arguments with us is Mythic power attack and a critical on a 15 or higher from this player, he crits every turn at bat at least once. I’ve turned him on the party a couple of times and had one player leave the game over it. I didn’t know what to do either, my player resents the nerf and almost left tonight over further concern over the mythic rules as we encountered them. Yet im not ready to leave Piazo over it. Doesn’t seem right. I’m gonna tell the rest of this story and try a Path with less experimental content.

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