Death and the Newbies

[Uncle Ook]

My wife and I are fairly new to Pathfinder Society, now with five games under our belts. The scenario I'm talking about involves an incident during our third ever adventure, playing The Devil We Know, Part 1: The Shipyard Rats

It was, from beginning to end, a mess. We are still getting the hang - I hadn't played a D20 game in decades, since my early teens, and my wife hasn't really picked it up that well. We were joined at the table by someone playing their first ever Pathfinder game with a pregen, and another young man of unknown experience, also playing a pregen. My wife and I had characters with 2XP, one each from a pregen playing of Mists of Mwangi and one from Silent Tide.

To top it off, it was our GM's first game, and he was running it cold. He did his best, but he had hot dice, ours were cold, and in the end, we all ended up negative (but not actually dead). I've heard that The Shipyard Rats has generated a lot of TPK's, particualarly the

Spoiler:

3rd level cleric channeling negative energy.

As it was, not a fun time, and as it was, we ran off without getting chronicle sheets. From reading posts on here, it seems like the GM could say we failed - and we did, certainly, rather epically - but not necessarily have us dead. The bad guys were

Spoiler:

slavers

after all, and when three-fourths of the party goes down in the first attack, it isn't like we proved much of a challenge. Is it wrong to think that we should have been captured instead of killed, or even dumped off at the Lodge, sans our equipment, which the bad guys would certainly have looted?

The worst part is that my wife lost her aasimar sorceress, and can't recreate it. All in all, it left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Chris O'Reilly]

I know one scenario with a negative boon at the end on the chronicle indicating you get captured and tortured. To me, that implies that if they want to say you get captured instead of killed it will be made explicit.

Pfs has a strict run as written mantra and I see a lot of gms afraid to go out of bounds, which would include alternate punishments. There's a reportable option for players died. There no such option for players were looted of gear and left to recover.

Myself I have spared low level groups as the enemy was specifically fighting to escape or was on some sort of time crunch. Sometimes, though, you get wrecked so totally that you just have to accept that you are done for.

Perhaps you can see if you can pool your resources to raise one character. If you didn't know you had that option the GM might be willing to revisit the death. It doesn't sound like you will have enough but I say always do the math and be sure.

[Muser]

Take it in stride, think about the 160+ scenarios you've still to play and rejoice: most of them are a zounds better than the first TDWK.

Some think it's a classic. Others accept that it showcases the peculiar way the author did scenario design: Turbocharged negative channelers in low tiers, raging undead, strange loot placement(A chest with 1500 gp in trade bars? Why not just, I dunno, outfit the enemies with it?), goblin warrior "shock troops" in tier 6-7, etc. Yeah and of course some npcs or enemies might have wondrously written backgrounds, but only the gm will ever know. The author made sure!

Yes, I'm bitter. When folks complain about hardness, ninjas, or whatever's the flavor of the month, I recall hellcats in antimagic zones, a flaming burst greataxe you'll never use, 32 morlocks making up a cr 11 encounter, fifth level human fighters with quarterstaves, Dalirio's third cousin's niece's undead aunt(who's raging), goblins riding on black dragons, that one rotten pier and...well, it's so much better nowadays.

Sorry, venting over.

[BigNorseWolf]

If the dice killed you then you're dead. You had a perfect storm of things going wrong.

A cold run
Pregens
The Dice trying to kill you
Pregens
Inexperienced players
Pregens
low level characters.

[Uncle Ook]

thanks for the reply. yeah, there's no chance of raising the money for a raise dead and restore, especially for level one characters.

The "run as written" mantra is seemingly contradicted by the Guide to Organized Play, advising that the GM "consider the experience of the player when deciding whether to use especially lethal tactics or if a character is in extreme danger of death, especially when the player is new to the game. Most players whose first experience in a campaign results in a character death don’t return to the campaign."

That, to me, would obviate the RAW - if the bad guy has an attack that can one shot 3/4ths of a party, the Guide would seem to suggest not using that attack.

Even then, the characters weren't dead, just unconscious and, when the final member fell, making their stabilization rolls. We haven't received chronicle sheets and the session hasn't been reported yet. Do the RAW say that bad guys will kill unconscious players, even if they might have better use for them? Not to mention we'd

Spoiler:

perviously freed a bunch of slaves that perhaps a creative GM could have at least had run off the cleric who'd taken us down.

[Starglim]

Unfortunately, if the bad guys stabilised and captured the characters (as I agree would fit their motives), it sounds as if none of them have 5 PP for their faction to rescue them, so the GM would still have to let them off easy and make up the consequences of the bad guys looting their gear.

[Tamec]

Given what I know of that particular adventure

Devil We Know:

They are not normal slavers. They are undead creating slavers so yes they would kill you to turn you into a skeleton a zombie, or worse.

[Avatar-1]

Uncle Ook wrote:

The "run as written" mantra is seemingly contradicted by the Guide to Organized Play, advising that the GM "consider the experience of the player when deciding whether to use especially lethal tactics or if a character is in extreme danger of death, especially when the player is new to the game. Most players whose first experience in a campaign results in a character death don’t return to the campaign."

That quote from the guide really takes precedence. While the GM can't change things like adding or removing bad guys, he can roleplay them however it seems appropriate, because the players are variable at every table. It's very acceptable to be extra lenient on newbies.

The bad guy can spend a round laughing, taunting, screaming "IS THIS THE BEST YOU'VE GOT?" instead of burning the rest of his channels, his pride getting in the way and not realising his enemy is picking up his fallen comrade. He can holster his weapon, come over and kick a player he thinks is too weak - provoking an attack of opportunity. Or he can just escape at a snail's pace, thinking he has all the time in the world.

Players having fun always takes priority.

[Uncle Ook]

Tamec wrote:

Given what I know of that particular adventure

** spoiler omitted **

I didn't know that one. Ah well, I still think an experienced GM might have had options, but it looks like there's no other options. I wish the GM would just report it to stop leaving us in limbo though.

We're signed up for a couple events at Queen City Conquest this coming weekend. I have to say the sour taste in my mouth from this is making me think this is the last chance for us with PFS. The first two adventures weren't bad, but TDWK:TSR just seemed completely unforgiving for 4 1st level characters, it's just doesn't seem like this is a game I'll be sticking with for 160+ adventures.

[Starglim]

Tamec wrote:

Given what I know of that particular adventure

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

They might pull out a few of their captives to do that - particularly if the PCs destroyed specific undead servants and were well suited to replace them, such as Luscilia's zombie and the party included a strong fighter, or Dalirio's huecuva and a cleric - but most of the slaves are either shipped off for cash sales in other nations, or sold to the derro for purposes revealed in Part 4.

[FLite]

Tarmec,

Spoiler:

actually, at that point in the story they are running slave ships into cheliax, to finance the rest of the operations, so if you went down at that exact point, I would probably let you get a 5PP body recovery from slavery, especially since they just lost 5? of their stock when you rescued them from the bar.

Uncle Ook

Yeah, the guide would have recommended pulling a few punches on you, you really are at the low end of the power spectrum. (That said I would definitely have steered a first time GM and 4 near new players way far away from TDWK, that whole series is a walking meat grinder for novices. Easy enough even with 6 weak characters if the players are experienced, but 4 novice players? No way.

Spoiler:

While it is a 2d6 attack, it only has a dc 12 save and a 30 foot range, and she only hp 28 hp herself. Most PCs should have 8-12 hps at this point, with barbarians topping 16+ with rage. Only bad luck should let her tpk the party in one round. But then sometimes you just have really bad luck.

Another time it might have been better if the two pregens had been level 4. (I think that should have still kept you guys at 2.5 APL, round down to 2, and play much more enjoyably)

[BigNorseWolf]

Pregens have to play in tier, because the tier determines the level of the pregen

[Uncle Ook]

FLite wrote:

Uncle Ook

Yeah, the guide would have recommended pulling a few punches on you, you really are at the low end of the power spectrum. (That said I would definitely have steered a first time GM and 4 near new players way far away from TDWK, that whole series is a walking meat grinder for novices. Easy enough even with 6 weak characters if the players are experienced, but 4 novice players? No way.

I'd read somewhere that it had been the number 1 killer at GenCon. If I'd know that, I'd have definitely had us play pre-gens as well, so as to not risk our characters with such a weak group.

Like I said, the dice were very, very cold, and the GM's very hot.

Spoiler:

The cleric's first attack was a channel for the full 12 points of damage - and three of us blew our saving throws. I was already injured from the fight with the half-orcs below decks and had blown all but one of my channels. That put us all in negatives except for the barbarian, who killed the zombie and damaged the cleric after the GM tried to go complete softball on us.

the 5 PP wasn't going to happen either, as my wife and I had 4 each, our guest was playing her first ever game, and I don't know about the fourth. if we'd known better, she'd have bought a wand of magic missile and I one of CLW (I did say we were newbies) which meant we'd have been in much better shape. as it was, I'd blown through all my healing but the one channel.

[Jeff Merola]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Pregens have to play in tier, because the tier determines the level of the pregen

As far as I'm aware this is not the case. If you could provide a ruling in support of your statement I would appreciate it.

[BigNorseWolf]

Uncle Ook wrote:

thanks for the reply. yeah, there's no chance of raising the money for a raise dead and restore, especially for level one characters.

Could everyone pool their cash together and save the aasimar? You only need the raise dead (5,000 + 450 (9th level caster *5th level spell*X10)

and you can "sell" off your equipment to try to get there. They'd just need the 5pp for body recovery on their own.

After that since you're first level you're in luck, you take 2 points of con drain (not level drain) , and you can pay that off next session

All conditions gained during an adventure, except for
permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not
reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no
mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the
session;

[BigNorseWolf]

Jeff Merola wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Pregens have to play in tier, because the tier determines the level of the pregen

As far as I'm aware this is not the case. If you could provide a ruling in support of your statement I would appreciate it.

If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply

wish to try out a new character class, you may choose to use
one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters
available at paizo.com/pathfindersociety or from your
local event coordinator.

Which I've always seen read as being the same level as the subtier you're running if you can. Otherwise people would just level 1 entirely and run level 4 pregens applying the credit to a level 1.
I'll google foo for some clarification if I'm right or off my rocker.

[Netopalis]

So, back in my first days on this forum (Feel free to go back, anybody with morbid curiosity), I felt that this game was extremely harsh on new players. Now, with some experience...I still feel that it maintains an air of harshness while actually killing on a fairly low rate. For comparison's purposes, I've only killed one unrecoverable PC in 2 years of GMming, in which I have killed off characters 30 time. Why? Because I use tactics and such liberally against new, inexperienced players.

What should this teach you, the player? I'd personally chalk it up to a learning opportunity. Your first PFS character is generally not well-connected with the lore, so what can you do to make your next one fit better? What can you do to make him more survivable?

[Jeff Merola]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Pregens have to play in tier, because the tier determines the level of the pregen

As far as I'm aware this is not the case. If you could provide a ruling in support of your statement I would appreciate it.

If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply

wish to try out a new character class, you may choose to use
one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters
available at paizo.com/pathfindersociety or from your
local event coordinator.

Which I've always seen read as being the same level as the subtier you're running if you can. I'll google foo for some clarification if I'm right or off my rocker.

While I encourage the use of in tier pregens whenever possible, I've personally read that as "a pregen that could legally play the scenario/module."

[FLite]

Pregens must play in tier, but not (I think) subtier. Otherwise tier 5-9 could not be played with pregens, as there are no pregens in either subtier.

so, it sounds like you guys had a total of 9 pp, I don't remember if you can pool pp for a body recovery, but were I the gm, I might have been inclined to let you and your wife pool it to get back her aasimar if it looked like it was legal.

My understanding is that the lethality when it came out was due in large part to a mechanic change that people were not aware of at the time.

Spoiler:

basically, it was believed wrongly that channel negative both harmed the pcs *and* healed the undead in the same round, which depending on party composition, can make that fight unwinnable. People also didn't realize the wood deck would protect the people below from channels... (channels are emanations, they require line of effect)

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I think it's very reasonable to pull punches when it comes to new players, there is really no reason to ruin someones first experience like this. Call it cheating if you will, but some scenarios can be quite deadly for a group of 4 level 1 characters.

Suggesting to every player:"Just play a barbarian for the first 3 encounters and then retrain to you intended concept". Should not be good advice.

[Nimrandir]

Hi!

I don't really have any advice as to the specific situation in the original post, but I wanted to chime in as a relatively new PFS player (for reference, I started playing in January) who considered posting something about character death in these forums. My first PC was part of a TPK in his fifth scenario, and I've lost two more novice Pathfinders since then.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure my body count is unusual, and the scenarios/modules involved all have deadly/swingy reputations. Beyond that, though, I love the opportunity to get together with folks on a regular basis and play a game we all enjoy. I hope your next PFS experience goes more smoothly, and that the next thirty-three scenarios offer you and your wife a rip-roaring good time.

[BigNorseWolf]

At first level, NEVER go into a fight at less than full HP. No such thing as "just three hp" at that level.

Not killing newbies is advice. Not changing the dice is a harder rule. I don't see there being any ability to override the DM saying "yup. You're dead"

[Mystic Lemur]

I don't understand the bit where you left without chronicles. The questions you are asking would be answered on the chronicle. You should get in touch with the GM and determine what state the bad guys left you in. I think 1xp, 0gp, and much (if not all) of your equipment stolen is a reasonable answer if you don't have 5 prestige to pay for a recovery team. The recovery team usually gets your equipment back along with you.

And Pregen equipment can be sold off to pay for a raise dead. That's something else that should have been handled at the table, but I don't see why the pregen players would have a problem footing the bill for the real PCs. Either way, you've learned some valuable lessons about the game, both in-game tactics, and out-of-game being more careful about the tables you join.

[Chris O'Reilly]

Level one pregens contribute basically nothing to a raise dead. Its a long shot but you can try posting in one of the boon threads. Someone might have an extra aasimar boon and be willing to send it over.

[Uncle Ook]

Mystic Lemur wrote:

I don't understand the bit where you left without chronicles. The questions you are asking would be answered on the chronicle. You should get in touch with the GM and determine what state the bad guys left you in. I think 1xp, 0gp, and much (if not all) of your equipment stolen is a reasonable answer if you don't have 5 prestige to pay for a recovery team. The recovery team usually gets your equipment back along with you.

It was a home game, and we wanted to get our guest to a family dinner, so we were in a bit of a rush. Again, it was a first time GM running the adventure cold, so he may not have had them handy. To date, we've still not received a chronicle, and he hasn't added the session to the site yet.

Quote:

And Pregen equipment can be sold off to pay for a raise dead. That's something else that should have been handled at the table, but I don't see why the pregen players would have a problem footing the bill for the real PCs. Either way, you've learned some valuable lessons about the game, both in-game tactics, and out-of-game being more careful about the tables you join.

Yeah, definitely a learning experience. The first thing we did after completing TDWK part 2 was get the wand of CLW that might have kept us alive the first time around.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts (and sympathy). I'm loathe to bring our new characters (Dwarf Stonelord Paladin and Gnome Saurian Shaman because my wife wanted a velociraptor named Mcnugget) to the table at a con, but I guess we'll see.

[HabeneroHN]

Cons are a real crapshoot. Great chance to get a bunch of games in a short time, great chance to meet a killer GM out to get a few more ticks on their TPK card. It's a tough call if you cannot play often and losing a character can represent 6 to 12 months of play time loss due to a situation similar to yours. At low levels the dice often rule the game.

If you have the option, making Con only character is a good idea. That way you are prepared for the risk.

[Chris Mortika]

Uncle Ook,

I have a couple of aasimar boons, from back a couple years ago. If your wife wants another shot at one, send me a PM.

[Game Master]

Did one of the characters happen to be an Inquisitor with a camel named Dewdrop?*

My friend lost his character to the same scenario the other day. I wonder if you guys both sat at the same table.

*Ask why she's called Dewdrop.

[Uncle Ook]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Uncle Ook,

I have a couple of aasimar boons, from back a couple years ago. If your wife wants another shot at one, send me a PM.

That's incredibly generous, really. I think we're going to see if we're going to keep playing, and she's rather attached to her Saurian Shaman, because velociraptor, so I wouldn't want to waste your boon on her.

We will definitely take HabeneroHN's advice and make new characters for the con.

And I must know why the camel is called Dewdrop, Game Master.

[Fromper]

Chris O'Reilly wrote:

I know one scenario with a negative boon at the end on the chronicle indicating you get captured and tortured. To me, that implies that if they want to say you get captured instead of killed it will be made explicit.

I disagree. There are plenty of situations where the NPCs don't have any motivation to kill the PCs.

This one is pretty obvious. When I ran it the first time, I had 3 experienced players breaking in new characters, along with a pregen. I actually had all 3 PCs down to negatives, with the pregen cleric running away from a Cause Fear spell, and I decided the slaver would want to keep them alive, and also be arrogant enough to think the cleric wouldn't come back. When the pregen cleric came back two rounds later, she channeled to wake up the PCs, and the fight was back on.

In conversations about another adventure where the final fight is against muggers (most of you know what scenario I'm talking about), majority opinion here on the forums has been that the muggers will just take the PCs' stuff and not care if they live or die, so they could be left bleeding in the street to stabilize on their own.

Unfortunately, this particular scenario is really rough for a group of new level 1 PCs. We've talked for years about how some subtier 1-2 adventures are fine for a bunch of level 1s, while others require at least a couple of level 2s to have a good chance to win, and it would be nice if they were labeled as such.

But it also sounds like your GM messed up the tactics - that cleric is supposed to start out just healing the undead minion with channels, not blasting the party right away. The tactics seem to be intentionally written that way to keep the adventure from being too lethal.

[Pirate Rob]

Fromper wrote:

But it also sounds like your GM messed up the tactics - that cleric is supposed to start out just healing the undead minion with channels, not blasting the party right away. The tactics seem to be intentionally written that way to keep the adventure from being too lethal.

Not True:

During Combat Luscilia lets her zombies do the brunt of the fighting and uses her Channel Energy ability frequently, choosing to either harm the PCs or heal her zombie depending on where it will do the most good.

[Winks Blastum]

The way Pathfinders murder hobo their way around makes it unlikely NPC's who are supposedly the 'bad guys' would not do the same.

[Uncle Ook]

Winks Blastum wrote:

The way Pathfinders murder hobo their way around makes it unlikely NPC's who are supposedly the 'bad guys' would not do the same.

In our defense, we were not playing as murderhobos.

Spoiler:

We actually made a heal check to stabilize the half-orcs below decks when we freed the prisoners before facing Luscila. Heck, I even healed Luscila when I used Orc Ferocity to use my last channel, which got my wife's sorceress up to -2 and stable and the pregen ninja to -1 and stable. Since I was a cleric of Sarenrae, it seemed reasonable to capture, not kill if possible. The only reason the druid in the first fight died was because the barbarian had the best hit/damage combination of the night and cut him in two.

[Game Master]

Uncle Ook wrote:

And I must know why the camel is called Dewdrop, Game Master.

Spit (Ranged Touch Attack): 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (2) + 4 = 6

That's why.