| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Ok so I was reading Extra Panache and well it seems TOO good to be true.
Benefit: You gain two more panache points at the start of each day, and your maximum panache increases by two.
Special: If you have levels in the swashbuckler class, you can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, these benefits increase by two.
So if I take this feat twice I am gaining 6 Panache (2+4)?
No, you gain the benefits twice. 2+2. The original benefit is increased, by the second feat.
That would make more sense, but the wording doesn't suggest that. Of course if Extra Panache grants 2 points of panache and I take it twice of course my bonus would go up by 2.. 2+2 is still an increase of two. But why add that last section.
Take this snippet from FoI
You can take this multiple times. Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1.
Here is Extra Arcane Pool
Benefit: Your arcane pool increases by 2.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack, granting you an increase to your arcane pool each time you take this feat.
Notice the lack of that last set of words.
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If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
The devs aren't technical writers and they occasionally write ambiguous rules. VRMH's interpretation makes as much semantic sense as yours and makes more rules sense, so it is almost certainly correct.
The wording being inconsistent with similar abilities isn't good evidence it doesn't work the same way, especially since the wording of those abilities isn't consistent with each other. Uncanny dodge has about half a dozen slightly different wordings between rogue, barbarian, etc. Doesn't mean there are half a dozen versions of uncanny dodge.
Here is another reason why I think it applies as I thought.
Its for martial characters. Granting Arcane Pool endlessly is a HUGE boon but Martial characters with a dozen points can't really do much more then they could do with half that.
I mean look at any of the Deeds fueled by Panache are any going to be Utterly Broken with near endless Panache?
Also then why the weird wording. Simply say the feats stack.
I mean the benefits are the Two point increase and maximum increase by 2 each time you take it these benefits increase by two for each time you take it. So each time you take it you add another 2.
While it certainly says that you can take the feat multiple times, the feat doesn't stack with itself since it does not include a specific exception for that. If you take the feat twice then you indeed have one feat which gives 2 points, and one feat which gives 4 points, but since they don't stack you end up with 4 extra points, not six.
They should just have copied the wording from the extra arcana feat, but the editing of the ACG has been lacking in other areas too, so I'm hardly surprised they didn't use the same format.
I agree that they need to say they stack, but isn't that implied with the ability to take the feat multiple times. In fact it notes that you have to have levels in Swashbuckler to take the feat multiple times. Doesn't that imply stacking as a RAI.
Ok here is the Benefit section of Font of Inspiration
Special
You can take this multiple times. Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1 (for example, you gain 2 inspiration points if you take the feat a second time). The maximum number of times you can take this feat is equal to your Intelligence modifier.
Now according to the belief that unless it says it stacks then FoI does not stack and instead replaces the points the first feat gave you with 2 rather then one.
That would be correct. If it doesn't say it stacks, it doesn't stack. On FoI, I believe we have direct commentary from the writer of it mentioning that it should say it stacks.
Extra Panache is, like quite a few other things in the ACG, not worded well, in this case causing the Feat to not actually be worth taking beyond the initial time.
I marked it as FAQ so maybe we will get some type of answer. Because you are right. This feat is only good if you really need more Panache say have a low Cha due to point buy. If it was the way I originally read it, then it would be worth taking much more.
Ok so I am bringing this back up
Here is Extra Grit
Prerequisite: Grit class feature or the Amateur Gunslinger feat.
Benefit: You gain 2 extra grit points at the start of each day, and your maximum grit increases by 2.
Normal: If you are a gunslinger, you gain your Wisdom modifier in grit points at the start of each day, which is also your maximum grit. If you have the Amateur Gunslinger feat, you gain 1 grit point at the start of each day, and your maximum grit is equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Special: If you possess levels in the gunslinger class, you can take this feat multiple times.
Here again is Extra Panache
Prerequisite(s): Amateur Swashbuckler or panache class feature.
Benefit: You gain two more panache points at the start of each day, and your maximum panache increases by two.
Special: If you have levels in the swashbuckler class, you can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, these benefits increase by two.
Question is. Does Extra Grit stack with itself because the way it is worded it does not according to the reading of those posting above because it does not specifically state that they stack. It does say this can be taken many times which common sense would lean toward stacking.
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That would be correct. If it doesn't say it stacks, it doesn't stack. On FoI, I believe we have direct commentary from the writer of it mentioning that it should say it stacks.
This.
Another way to try to divine the writers' intent is to look at pathfinder multiplication rules for an example.
In pathfinder, doubling then doubling again is 3x original value, not 4x.
So, if the feat is applied then applied again, by the multiplication example it's hard to argue that the 2nd instance of the feat should modify the 1st feat.
Benefit: You gain two more panache points at the start of each day, and your maximum panache increases by two.
Special: If you have levels in the swashbuckler class, you can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, these benefits increase by two.
The reason why I point this out. Sure if it didnt have this line I would say it works just like Extra Grit and just adds 2 more on each time. But Extra Panache specifically states that each time you take the feat it increases by two.
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You could read it as:
+2 panache for first feat, but then +2+2 for first feat added to +2+2 for second feat. (the feat applies 2 times the total number of times you've taken the feat to your panache pool)
It's a violation of Occam's razor however, when you could instead read it simply as:
+2 panache for first feat, +2 panache for second feat. (each time the feat was taken, the benefit of +2 max panache is enjoyed)
I brought up the changes to the mathematical rules of multiplication for pathfinder as an extra case for why the first example should be discarded, in case Occam's razor wasn't enough.
What I'm saying is having slightly different language from Extra Grit isn't necessarily evidence that the application of bonuses is also different. The writers (very plausibly, imo) could have meant the same thing in practice for both feats despite using different language.
You could read it as:
+2 panache for first feat, but then +2+2 for first feat added to +2+2 for second feat. (the feat applies 2 times the total number of times you've taken the feat to your panache pool)
It's a violation of Occam's razor however, when you could instead read it simply as:
+2 panache for first feat, +2 panache for second feat. (each time the feat was taken, the benefit of +2 max panache is enjoyed)I brought up the changes to the mathematical rules of multiplication for pathfinder as an extra case for why the first example should be discarded, in case Occam's razor wasn't enough.
I will be the first to agree that ACG is poorly Edited and Proof-Read.
But if it does not have the difference in 2 then 2+2, then 2+2+2 (Increase by 2 each time it is taken.Of course for Balance sake it could be and probably should be read as just a static 2 upgrade each time. And at least your not debating on whether it should stack with itself and so forth. But WHY does it have the line "Each time you do, these benefits increase by two." and please do not say "Oh to explain that gaining two points of panache increases your panache by 2 each time you take the feat" Because this is not 5e and none of us are brain-dead. And if this was meant to be that way then I think the designers should feel ashamed for insulting our intelligence in this way.
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Of course for Balance sake it could be and probably should be read as just a static 2 upgrade each time.
Agreed. I'd go a step further, and even say that way makes more logical sense. Whether we agree on that further step, I'm not too worried however.
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But WHY does it have the line "Each time you do, these benefits increase by two." and please do not say "Oh to explain that gaining two points of panache increases your panache by 2 each time you take the feat" Because this is not 5e and none of us are brain-dead. And if this was meant to be that way then I think the designers should feel ashamed for insulting our intelligence in this way.
Well, that IS what I'm saying is "most likely the writers' RAI". The feat gives benefit x (+2 panache regeneration at the beginning of the day) and benefit y (+2 increased cap on max panache). You gain x and y every time you take the feat.
Of course for Balance sake it could be and probably should be read as just a static 2 upgrade each time.Agreed. I'd go a step further, and even say that way makes more logical sense. Whether we agree on that further step, I'm not too worried however.
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But WHY does it have the line "Each time you do, these benefits increase by two." and please do not say "Oh to explain that gaining two points of panache increases your panache by 2 each time you take the feat" Because this is not 5e and none of us are brain-dead. And if this was meant to be that way then I think the designers should feel ashamed for insulting our intelligence in this way.Well, that IS what I'm saying is "most likely the writers' RAI". The feat gives benefit x (+2 panache regeneration at the beginning of the day) and benefit y (+2 increased cap on max panache). You gain x and y every time you take the feat.
But Extra Grit does this with without needing to add that the benefit increases by 2 every time it is taken. They have dang near the same wording till that last section. (The special notation not withstanding)
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But Extra Grit does this with without needing to add that the benefit increases by 2 every time it is taken. They have dang near the same wording till that last section. (The special notation not withstanding)
We agree that the game police won't come and arrest you for playing the feat where it modifies itself each time you take it. That reading is internally logical, even if I personally believe that it's a less plausible reading than another option.
Hopefully you can also agree that if you come across a GM who doesn't share your opinion that you don't get to brow beat him until he "sees it your way".
The way it's supposed to work, I believe, is like Extra Ki, where it's simply 'You can take this multiple times, and every time you do, it gives you (x) points to add to your pool.'
However, the wording on this is unclear, and needs editing, badly.