I remember playing in a game where we were all 8th level and the GM was trying to go for the no Magic Marts-Magic is special route. After doing a long dungeon that culimanted with a battle between us and some golems and a purple worm, all we got for our troubles were.... a silver masterwork dagger, some coins (about 100 gp) and some silver horseshoes. Oh and a "Good Job" from our commander (we were employed by the army).
Next session, we all levelled. So we all took leadership, got some followers, and said that we were retiring from the adventurer life and buying farmland to live our days. Because risking our lives for no money wasn't worth it and wasn't fun.
Going to the opposite silly extreme does not invalidate someone's preference of something somewhere in the middle.
..
The magic mart is primarily a GM problem. I rarely see players complain and have found that more often than not, you'll never make magic feel special. Fantasy is too mainstream right now, with video games and movies and books flooding the market.+1000
I think that what happens is the players give a sigh of relief when the GM finally gives them something, and the GM mistakes for it "wonder", so he keeps the same pattern going. I have never heard a player say, "You make it too easy to get these items. Send us on a quest.".The 75% rule does a good job of not getting them everything they want, but normally giving them enough.
Not just a GM problem. I don't like it as a player or a GM. However, I have rarely said anything about it to the GM, because more of the group agrees with the way he runs the game than the way I would prefer the game to go.
I would love quests for items. Many of the mission hooks we get now are fairly anemic. We go along with them because that is what the GM has prepared and we want to play the game.
But if we were really role playing faithfully, we would just ignore much of the hooks we see. They just don't interest. I would prefer to leave the ash-hat mayor and his xenophobic village to get flattened.
But hey the chance to get the Grey Axe that steals the thoughts of those it slays. Heck yeah! I'm in for that.
I would say it is more of a Grognard issue than a GM issue. I am much more likely to encounter people that prefer less easy access to items in the people that played back in the 80's. Not universal by any stretch, but more of them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One way (of many) around that magic shop design consideration would be for the players to seek out the specific items they need via actual adventuring.
That can totally work, but some groups are leery of anything too railroad-y, and that solution (while very good for players who want to be told where to go next) would not be optimal for some of the people I've DMed for. You really need to know your players.
In my games there used to be pretty easy access to magic items, but in my recent campain world I introduced an extradimentional shop that charges at +10-15% over estimated price but is willing to trade in for items refunding 80-85% of their value.
This place is accessible from anywhere, so long as you have a way to cross dimentions. Which tends to be a problem early on.
Magic shoppes on the material plane of course exist aplenty, but their stocks are rarely larger then just a handful of items. Many quite old.
Specific shops exist for expendable items, alchemist breweries for example and wand workshops.
A rare few spellcaster exist who have run the risk of obtaining a workshop and the knowledge required to run it, and they protect themselves fiercely from even the slightest threats, lest they be kidnapped and enslaved by some overlord or another, whatever dimension they came from.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Going to the opposite silly extreme does not invalidate someone's preference of something somewhere in the middle.
"Squatting in between those on the side of reason and evidence and those worshipping superstition and myth is not a better place. It just means you’re halfway to crazy town." --P.Z. Myers
Saving that quote.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One way (of many) around that magic shop design consideration would be for the players to seek out the specific items they need via actual adventuring.That can totally work, but some groups are leery of anything too railroad-y, and that solution (while very good for players who want to be told where to go next) would not be optimal for some of the people I've DMed for. You really need to know your players.
I think it does depend on how well you know your players (as with anything else: houserules, allowed races, sandbox vs. linear games, etc.) but I think it also goes to where the players started playing and what their experience was with magic items in their first games.
I don't have a problem selling my approach with pre-2000 era players, post 2000 is a different story.
I would guess that what you know or how you learned the game goes a long way towards expectations.
Going to the opposite silly extreme does not invalidate someone's preference of something somewhere in the middle."Squatting in between those on the side of reason and evidence and those worshipping superstition and myth is not a better place. It just means you’re halfway to crazy town." --P.Z. Myers
Well obviously I don't think that is what I'm doing, but I love that quote. I'm going to have to write that down.
Yeah, wasn't accusing you; just thought it was a good place to insert that.
In the past I've allowed players to have whatever magic items they could afford, and I never saw many issues with that, but I'm looking for a change. I'm about to run a homebrew-heavy campaign, in which I've done away with the ye olde magick shoppe and magic item creation completely. The gist of it is that the secrets of creating magic items were lost long ago, so shops that buy and sell magic items are dealing in scavenged antiquities. It's not that magic items are super rare per se, just that you have to make do with what you find. I'm also implementing a houserule creating two extra ring slots, that can only hold 'left hand rings of mental stats' and 'right hand rings of physical stats'. This way players feel less pressured to give up their interesting belt slot and headband slot items in favor of boring stat boosts. I've talked to my players and they seem down for it.
Your game- your rules....
But can you explain mechanically how that happened? Does this mean that all the wizards have died?
(and liches)
(and dragons)
Becuase knoledge is really Freking hard to kill.
I don't have a problem selling my approach with pre-2000 era players, post 2000 is a different story. I would guess that what you know or how you learned the game goes a long way towards expectations.
Yeah, it's tough for me to reconcile. I didn't switch to anything d20 until something like 2006. I grew up with Basic and 1st edition, loved them, played the hell out of them, get massive bouts of nostalgia for them... and simultaneously realize that a lot of the newer editions are just better games, in a lot of ways. "Entitlement" and all.
Nope. Millennium Falcon = Mass teleportation/plane shift item. It doesn't just get you from point A to point B; it takes you vast distances, even to different planets (planes), instantaneously. It serves EXACTLY the same role in SW as teleport/plane shift magic serves in D&D/Pathfinder.Millenium Falcon=Mundane but awesome Boat
It functions as a slightly faster than normal transport vessel. Ie a suped up boat. If its common and able to be massed produced its mundane whether it is tech or magic.
I wonder do you think the narrative breaks down in lower magic settings like Westeros.
I have read some of your other posts I don't think we disagree in general. I am not for removing or nerfing items I just present them as rare and keep some level of mystery. It is a storytelling taste preference.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One way (of many) around that magic shop design consideration would be for the players to seek out the specific items they need via actual adventuring.That can totally work, but some groups are leery of anything too railroad-y, and that solution (while very good for players who want to be told where to go next) would not be optimal for some of the people I've DMed for. You really need to know your players.
Bolded for emphasis. Regardless of anything else said in this thread or another thread, this right here is all that matters. Talk to your players -- they don't bite, usually -- and ask their opinions. See what kind of game they are looking for, compare to what you are interested in, find the middle ground if you aren't on the same page. Adjust as needed.
The book rules on settlements are a starting place and don't have the final word at your table anymore than anything else. As long as you understand what you are getting into by giving less (or more!) treasure, be it from drops or garishly bright warehouse sized buildings with massive assortments of things, you'll be fine.
Give low treasure and you'll get a low metacritic score like Destiny.
I just use the actual settlement rules. That allows for a large amount of purchasing to be done, 75% chance per week for any item 16,000GP or less once you get to a metropolis, but still has some limits on what can be outright purchased off the street (+2 weapon is the highest you can buy this way). For higher level gear, players can
a) purchase the randomly generated magic items, although they may not be exactly what they want
b) get them as loot, although this requires adventuring, and again may not be exactly what they're after
c)craft them, although this does take time. I encourage this one, as it lets me build bad guys with gear they need, and let's the players trade that for the gear they need (since crafting and selling are both half price). I also allow for upgrading items, as long as the difference in price is paid.
d) Seek out some to craft for them. High level magic item crafters do exist, the just tend to deal with a more select clientele (which tends to include PC's by the time they can afford higher level gear). Also, because of the limited number of people of this skill level, they tend to have a bit of a backlog, and can take extra time.
This makes lower level magic items common, and higher level ones less common, but still not exactly rare. And frankly, in a world with numerous magic users, this makes a lot more sense than making every +1 sword an object of legend.
|
|
I don't have a problem selling my approach with pre-2000 era players, post 2000 is a different story. I would guess that what you know or how you learned the game goes a long way towards expectations.Yeah, it's tough for me to reconcile. I didn't switch to anything d20 until something like 2006. I grew up with Basic and 1st edition, loved them, played the hell out of them, get massive bouts of nostalgia for them... and simultaneously realize that a lot of the newer editions are just better games, in a lot of ways. "Entitlement" and all.
Yeah, I'm going in the opposite direction.
No entitlements but also no "builds" or mini-game/traps.Focus has been on actually playing the game as much as possible with less focus on build choices and more in-game choices.
I disagree with you about newer editions = superior mechanics - mechanics work to a specific end and I think older editions actually meet that end better than 3rd ed based games. IMO of course, I'm in the minority with this view on these boards and YMMV.
Going back to 2nd ed (while still picking up adventures and some rule ideas from other systems) and I'm not looking back. The biggest mistake in my whole gaming experience was switching over from 2nd ed to 3.5 (in 03-04).
But every individual player and DM has to find what works for themselves. That means that DMs need to talk to their players about how they would like to run their game while the players need to express what they want out of the experience. Get agreement and understanding on that and the rest is easy.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, bringing it back around to topic...
Your most important obligations as a GM are this:
Do these, and you can quite happily run a "low magic" or "magic shop free" game in Pathfinder.
Give low treasure and you'll get a low metacritic score like Destiny.
Yes, yes, you've made it abundantly clear that your way to play is the only way to play. 9_9
I think if there was a mundane way to easily block teleport that would solve a lot of issues.
Such as Marble scrambles teleportation within 5 feet.
It's the Harry Dresden universe version of running water. Water is completely mundane and plentiful. You just have to know how to use it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think if there was a mundane way to easily block teleport that would solve a lot of issues.
Such as Marble scrambles teleportation within 5 feet.
Those details will be coming out in the newest splat "Ultimate World Consistency/Advanced World Consistency Guide" which was never written for BECMI/0E/1E/2E/3E/3.5E/PF/4E/5E + all other versions of the game.
I think if there was a mundane way to easily block teleport that would solve a lot of issues.
Such as Marble scrambles teleportation within 5 feet.
It's the Harry Dresden universe version of running water. Water is completely mundane and plentiful. You just have to know how to use it.
Long ago I had a GM rule that teleport wouldn't take you through any other objects more solid than standard cloth. It resolved a lot of crap.
Teleport was still incredibly useful to take you somewhere fast, but you had to arrive outside.
He also had something for scrying, but I don't remember what it was.
In the past I've allowed players to have whatever magic items they could afford, and I never saw many issues with that, but I'm looking for a change. I'm about to run a homebrew-heavy campaign, in which I've done away with the ye olde magick shoppe and magic item creation completely. The gist of it is that the secrets of creating magic items were lost long ago, so shops that buy and sell magic items are dealing in scavenged antiquities. It's not that magic items are super rare per se, just that you have to make do with what you find. I'm also implementing a houserule creating two extra ring slots, that can only hold 'left hand rings of mental stats' and 'right hand rings of physical stats'. This way players feel less pressured to give up their interesting belt slot and headband slot items in favor of boring stat boosts. I've talked to my players and they seem down for it.Your game- your rules....
But can you explain mechanically how that happened? Does this mean that all the wizards have died?
(and liches)
(and dragons)Becuase knoledge is really Freking hard to kill.
Did I mention it was homebrew-heavy? Lmao. Suppose I should have mentioned it isn't Golarion.The way it happened was there was a magical cataclysm that fundamentally broke the old ways of using magic. There are no more 'wizards' in this setting, they all died thousands of years ago and all the casters utilize new forms of magic (read: homebrew specialized casters in the vein of the 3.5 beguiler), but the old magic items still function. It's a work in progress, heavily inspired by Dragonlance.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Long ago I had a GM rule that teleport wouldn't take you through any other objects more solid than standard cloth. It resolved a lot of crap. Teleport was still incredibly useful to take you somewhere fast, but you had to arrive outside. He also had something for scrying, but I don't remember what it was.
CASTLES AND DUNGEONS
Spells (and abilities duplicating the effects of spells) with the [scrying] or [teleportation] descriptor cannot penetrate to an area that is entirely enclosed by more than 1 ft. of solid stone, 3 ft. of earth, an inch of metal, and/or a thin coating of lead. This guideline, adapted from the Dunegonomicon (Frank and “K,” The Gaming Den), not only curtails “scry-and-fry” tactics, but also provides a rationale for both castles and dungeons.
Kings live in stone castles, not for defensibility from armies, but for secrecy; if a need to teleport or use divination magic comes up, they can go to an outside room and open a leaded-glass window, but while inside an inner room with stone walls and a lead-lined door, their councils are protected from eavesdropping and teleporting assassins. Many wizards likewise live in stone towers with designated divining and transportation rooms open to the outside. Tombs and cultist headquarters are typically found in dungeons underground.
Divination and dimension door effects within a dungeon or building itself are normally not affected, as the doorways, rooms, and corridors provide “open” lines of effect within the complex itself. However, rooms with stone walls and thick stone or metal doors (such as all of the Tomb of Horrors beyond the Chapel of Evil and Stone Gate) would fall under these guidelines.
...
Okeydoke, how to follow-through with the generally-dull quest of "making magic magical"...no problem.
First, let the little things go. I love the Ring of Sustenance to death, but it is NOT a major magic item nor should it be. It is a fancy-pants diet for rich people and should be treated as such. An allegory:
...
Second: Make it an option. A town which by the rules is just barely large and rich enough to have and sell +3 swords probably doesn't have the one your fighter wants just sitting around. And while it is completely within the rules to commission one, that takes over 2 weeks. Have him actually talk to Mr. Underhill the hedge-mage and have Mr. Underhill mention that "well I can get you your sword by the end of the month, if you kick in some extra I can even shave it down to 2 weeks, but if you REALLY want it fast, here's what I really need."
Insert short sidequest for magic crystal, sword takes 2 days to make instead of 2.5 weeks, and player gets what he wants. OR, he chooses to wait, and you let it go because it's a cooperative game you're playing and apparently he doesn't want to do interesting stuff with his magic swordity sword.
Got no problem with any of that. It is pretty darn close to what I would like to see happen.
My group usually wants to be able to stroll in to nearly any decent sized city and purchase a +2 merciful thunder earthbreaker right off the shelf.
Long ago I had a GM rule that teleport wouldn't take you through any other objects more solid than standard cloth. It resolved a lot of crap. Teleport was still incredibly useful to take you somewhere fast, but you had to arrive outside. He also had something for scrying, but I don't remember what it was.CASTLES AND DUNGEONS
Spells (and abilities duplicating the effects of spells) with the [scrying] or [teleportation] descriptor cannot penetrate to an area that is entirely enclosed by more than 1 ft. of solid stone, 3 ft. of earth, an inch of metal, and/or a thin coating of lead. This guideline, adapted from the Dunegonomicon (Frank and “K,” The Gaming Den), not only curtails “scry-and-fry” tactics, but also provides a rationale for both castles and dungeons.
Kings live in stone castles, not for defensibility from armies, but for secrecy; if a need to teleport or use divination magic comes up, they can go to an outside room and open a leaded-glass window, but while inside an inner room with stone walls and a lead-lined door, their councils are protected from eavesdropping and teleporting assassins. Many wizards likewise live in stone towers with designated divining and transportation rooms open to the outside. Tombs and cultist headquarters are typically found in dungeons underground.
Divination and dimension door effects within a dungeon or building itself are normally not affected, as the doorways, rooms, and corridors provide “open” lines of effect within the complex itself. However, rooms with stone walls and thick stone or metal doors (such as all of the Tomb of Horrors beyond the Chapel of Evil and Stone Gate) would fall under these guidelines.
Love it!
My group usually wants to be able to stroll in to nearly any decent sized city and purchase a +2 merciful thunder earthbreaker right off the shelf.
Heh. My players don't even need to worry about strolling into town. Bob can declare, "Grorg grabs a cobblestone from the wall that got lightning bolted during the fight and says, 'Grorg make smash with thunder rock!' So he puts a big handle on it and the whole thing is now a +2 merciful thunder earthbreaker. That puts me over limit with my current gear, though, so I'm thinking that cloak of resistance from last week was actually a normal cloak after all. Grorg stomps on it and we're good to go."
Thank goodness Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Robin Hood and pretty much every great character from fiction didn't feel that way, eh?I remember playing in a game where we were all 8th level and the GM was trying to go for the no Magic Marts-Magic is special route. After doing a long dungeon that culimanted with a battle between us and some golems and a purple worm, all we got for our troubles were.... a silver masterwork dagger, some coins (about 100 gp) and some silver horseshoes. Oh and a "Good Job" from our commander (we were employed by the army).
Next session, we all levelled. So we all took leadership, got some followers, and said that we were retiring from the adventurer life and buying farmland to live our days. Because risking our lives for no money wasn't worth it and wasn't fun.
They were not controlled by players in a RPG game either so the comparison is pretty bad.
As an example I was in the military so I never expected to get a +1 machine gun, even if they existed in real life, but as a player in an RPG game giving me 10 copper because you(the GM) thinks magic items are special is not going to fly.
The characters don't actually have to know every magic item in existence. All they have to know is what they need. When I go to a hardware shop I don't have its whole inventory catalogue memorized, but I do know that I need a plumber, so I search for one or ask an employee. I don't even need to know what a plumber is. I just need to know for what I need the tool and I'll should be able to find the right one, unless I'm really stupid.
I agree but the person whose stance I responded too seemed much stronger than that. He made it seem like the players should have any knowledge of it, but when NPC's are walking around with them, and there have been adventuring parties for thousands of years, and the gameworld actually has places that sell magic items they are not really as rare and special as to not be know about.
I also look at it like this. Magic weapons go up to +5, so I assume there is some way to ask for a +5 weapon in fantasyland. Since every magic item won't be used in every game it is easy to just assume the character knows about the ones that their character might need. Maybe they are swapping stories during downtime, and one person says "I heard about _____."
Them not being able to recognize every item is represented by needing a spellcraft check.
My group usually wants to be able to stroll in to nearly any decent sized city and purchase a +2 merciful thunder earthbreaker right off the shelf.Heh. My players don't even need to worry about strolling into town. Bob can declare, "Grorg grabs a cobblestone from the wall that got lightning bolted during the fight and says, 'Grorg make smash with thunder rock!' So he puts a big handle on it and the whole thing is now a +2 merciful thunder earthbreaker. That puts me over limit with my current gear, though, so I'm thinking that cloak of resistance from last week was actually a normal cloak after all. Grorg stomps on it and we're good to go."
How... magical.
They were not controlled by players in a RPG game either so the comparison is pretty bad.Thank goodness Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Robin Hood and pretty much every great character from fiction didn't feel that way, eh?I remember playing in a game where we were all 8th level and the GM was trying to go for the no Magic Marts-Magic is special route. After doing a long dungeon that culimanted with a battle between us and some golems and a purple worm, all we got for our troubles were.... a silver masterwork dagger, some coins (about 100 gp) and some silver horseshoes. Oh and a "Good Job" from our commander (we were employed by the army).
Next session, we all levelled. So we all took leadership, got some followers, and said that we were retiring from the adventurer life and buying farmland to live our days. Because risking our lives for no money wasn't worth it and wasn't fun.
No, they weren't... but their experiences, their adventures, their triumphs and tragedies inspired all that my players hope to experience in their game, inspired their own character concepts and their own expectations of what a fantasy world would be like... and therefor, when discussing the campaign world they will be playing in, the comparison is actually pretty dead on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ummmm... what does any of that have to do with the characters being motivated solely by financial reward, as stated in the post I quoted and responded to?Thank goodness Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Robin Hood and pretty much every great character from fiction didn't feel that way, eh?Yoda: "If all jedi lightsabers have, none special will feel, hmmm? A butter knife for you is good enough."
Museum: "Sorry, Dr. Jones. I know you believed this to be the Lost Ark of the Covenant, but then we'd need magic rocks or something for the next movie, and we simply can't have so many magic goodies floating around. So what you recovered is, in fact, a brass-covered box with some plain stone tablets in it. But it has a backstory!"
Gandalf: "Yes, there are legends of the Ring of Sauron, that makes men and hobbits invisible to all except His eye... but what you have there, what your uncle Bilbo recovered, is my aunt Mildred's engagement ring."
Sheriff of Nottingham: "Yes, of COURSE you can defeat all my schemes with a mundane bow... we're only 4th level, after all, and this is an E6 campign."
That was the in game reason. The OOC reason was likely that the GM was too stingy with the loot.
If you tell people up front, "I am deviating from the norm by ___", they accept it a lot better than finding out by accident.
PS: No I can't presume he would have agree to play if he had known, because I don't know the poster personally
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For myself, it was the sense of entitlement that really set me back when I first started playing/running a game again. Maybe that's the fault of video games?
But when Players learn that they can have as much fun without the "Christmas tree effect", then things get so much easier, and everyone can have fun.
Anyway, back to the OP question: I have very little available, maybe 25% chance, based on the town size, seldom going over something with a 2nd lvl spell equivalent. Mostly just scrolls and potions - which the players can craft for themselves. Just no permanent magic items - weapons, armor, rings, staves,etc. Instead of Item Creation feats, they can take another Feat.
But my campaign is meant to make being an arcane caster hard. Magic is drying up, and so there are VERY few who can work magic.
The casters already have the magic. It is the classes without magic that suffer more. Unless you have other houserules in place I would be more likely to play a caster in your game.
I think if there was a mundane way to easily block teleport that would solve a lot of issues.
Such as Marble scrambles teleportation within 5 feet.
It's the Harry Dresden universe version of running water. Water is completely mundane and plentiful. You just have to know how to use it.
Long ago I had a GM rule that teleport wouldn't take you through any other objects more solid than standard cloth. It resolved a lot of crap.
Teleport was still incredibly useful to take you somewhere fast, but you had to arrive outside.
He also had something for scrying, but I don't remember what it was.
I like that. Basically you can teleport that's not completely sealed off.
I think the whole magic shop (or shoppe) idea is really dumb. There is no reason whatsoever to equate the rules saying something might be available to saying that it is all located in one store, on main street.
I would think that locating the desired object is part of the process.
Like buying a used car, lots of places to look til you find exactly what you want.
Nobody said it was all in one store. The idea is that the item is somewhere in the city. Maybe an old adventurer has item X, or maybe you have to go to a potion shop for potions, and another place for another item, etc etc.
With that aside some people do not enjoy roleplaying shopping. They just want to get the item because it is a means to improve the chance to successfully advance the plot.
This is just me--->I don't like shopping in real life, so if I can just say I want ___ and get on with the game that is fine by me.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
How... magical.
It's exactly as magical as the player chooses to make it, as opposed to the DM deciding for him that it's "supposed" to be magical and then trying to convince the player (at best) or punish him until he likes it (at worst).
Granted, that's really what a lot of this thread is: some DMs hate their players and think of them as bratty, spoiled children who have to be punished and controlled (makes you wonder why they all hang out together). I maybe go too far in the "player empowerment" direction, but at least I admit it, and it comes from generally DMing for groups of players who are all experienced DMs in their own right when not at my table.
How... magical.It's exactly as magical as the player chooses to make it, as opposed to the DM deciding for him that it's "supposed" to be magical and then trying to convince the player (at best) or punish him until he likes it (at worst).
Granted, that's really what a lot of this thread is: some DMs hate their players and think of them as bratty, spoiled children who have to be punished and controlled (makes you wonder why they all hang out together). I maybe go too far in the "player empowerment" direction, but at least I admit it, and it comes from generally DMing for groups of players who are all experienced DMs in their own right when not at my table.
Well I can't speak for 'some DM's, though I'll certainly admit to having met my share of players who are indeed bratty spoiled children... but I would choose not to play with those individuals anyway. Truth be told, I'm actually selective enough in whom I would want to play with (no such thing as badwrongfun, but not every playstyle is everyone else's cup of tea) that its cost me the opportunity to play as often as I might otherwise wish. And that's fine, as its my choice. However, the suggestion that my disagreeing with you means that I somehow fall by default into the group you mention above is absurd. I and my players have exhaustive discussion son exactly what we want to get out of a gaming experience, I'm actively engaged in the character creation process, I exchange 'downtime' role-play emails in character with individual members between sessions and a game is a failure to me if my players don't walk out thinking 'that was AWESOME'.
On the other hand, I don't like playing tea party, so I don't. I don't like playing tic-tac-toe, so I don't. I don't like playing Diablo, so I don't. Doesn't mean those who do are wrong, but nor does it mean I'm wrong for seeking out others who share my preferences, or for encouraging those preferences where none may exist.
You do seem to have a little 'player empowerment' chip on your shoulder, and maybe I swing the other way, since in MY experience, players can often presume that the GM is there to serve them, that the GM's enjoyment is secondary to their own despite his greater investment, that they should be able to stroll up, character sheet in hand, and simply dictate how and when they want their GM-monkey to dance... that won't fly either. The GM creates his campaign world and writes his campaign as HE sees fit. A wise one will seek out players who actually want to play in it, a foolish one will allow those who don't to disregard or demean his work with demands that are more individually selfish in nature than they are intended to improve the experience of the group as a whole.
Roleplay for me is cooperative storytelling, not the GM setting up foes and dishing out rewards for his players Diablo-style until they inevitably get bored and decide to change the channel. We already have plenty of options for that, ones that don't take hours of my life away before we even get to sit down.
Granted, that's really what a lot of this thread is: some DMs hate their players and think of them as bratty, spoiled children who have to be punished and controlled (makes you wonder why they all hang out together).
The more I read this the more ridiculously and absurdly wrong it strikes me as. This thread is absolutely nothing of the kind. This thread is about GM's (you know, those guys who put in all the time out-of-game) having a vision of their own and discussing how best to see that vision come to reality. Players didn't even enter into the discussion until someone jumps in with snark and categorically dismisses them all as being wrong because they might not, as a player, get all the goodies they want when they want in the way they want, presumably in games that have absolutely nothing to do with these particular GM's anyway.
I don't see GM's in this thread trying to control or punish anyone - I see them trying to be creative and spontaneous and in turn being chastised for it by some of those 'bratty, spoiled children' you make mention of. The 'hate' is definitely flowing one way here.
My group usually wants to be able to stroll in to nearly any decent sized city and purchase a +2 merciful thunder earthbreaker right off the shelf.Heh. My players don't even need to worry about strolling into town. Bob can declare, "Grorg grabs a cobblestone from the wall that got lightning bolted during the fight and says, 'Grorg make smash with thunder rock!' So he puts a big handle on it and the whole thing is now a +2 merciful thunder earthbreaker. That puts me over limit with my current gear, though, so I'm thinking that cloak of resistance from last week was actually a normal cloak after all. Grorg stomps on it and we're good to go."
Uh . . . yeah. To each their own, I say!
|
|
How... magical.It's exactly as magical as the player chooses to make it, as opposed to the DM deciding for him that it's "supposed" to be magical and then trying to convince the player (at best) or punish him until he likes it (at worst).
Granted, that's really what a lot of this thread is: some DMs hate their players and think of them as bratty, spoiled children who have to be punished and controlled (makes you wonder why they all hang out together). I maybe go too far in the "player empowerment" direction, but at least I admit it, and it comes from generally DMing for groups of players who are all experienced DMs in their own right when not at my table.
C'mon Kirth, you're retreating to attack mode here.
Not all DMs who want low magic hate their players - or DMs (and players) who want magic items to feel special are doing so because they hate their players/themselves. You felt your play style was being attacked so you lashed back.
They count their limited bullets for their battered tech weapons and they genuinely get happy at a chance at finding artifact items (super high tech stuff, basically the Advanced Technology Guide gear and then some) throughout the course of the game. Stuff that is frequently damaged, unreliable, dangerous or breaks over the course of play - and they still love it.
Part of the scarcity is that they can try an repair the tech stuff they find (hard, risky and expensive) but its very hard to make the stuff as it existed pre-war, and buying it is almost impossible. So when have a chance at exploring ruins and maybe finding artifact gear they jump at the opportunity.
Granted some of my stinginess/resourced deprived game style lead to players trying to hoard or conserve much of their gear, but they always knew (because I told them) "If you have to use it, or break it then do so - somewhere down the line it will come back to you". And this meant holding onto those Torc grenades until you really needed to let loose to blow some big nasty to hell or getting your powered armor damaged/destroyed by some mutant or hazard while you were trying to save your friends. Heroics were rewarded, novaing for the sake of doing so was not.
I guess my players just like scarcity gaming. No masochist players or sadist GMs here.
For the record I like low magic fantasy gaming because that's the gaming style I came from in the beginning and [I[it worked[/I] for me. I had the best success in systems that support that game play philosophy.
I like that. Basically you can teleport that's not completely sealed off.I think if there was a mundane way to easily block teleport that would solve a lot of issues.
Such as Marble scrambles teleportation within 5 feet.
It's the Harry Dresden universe version of running water. Water is completely mundane and plentiful. You just have to know how to use it.
Long ago I had a GM rule that teleport wouldn't take you through any other objects more solid than standard cloth. It resolved a lot of crap.
Teleport was still incredibly useful to take you somewhere fast, but you had to arrive outside.
He also had something for scrying, but I don't remember what it was.
He said to think of it as flying through the air really fast (without friction). So a wide open window would let you teleport into a place, but the crack under the door would not. You could teleport around inside a building if the interior doors were open. Trying to remember, seems like he would let us try to crash through a door or window (taking damage) with something like a caster level check instead of a strength check.
..
...
With that aside some people do not enjoy roleplaying shopping. They just want to get the item because it is a means to improve the chance to successfully advance the plot.This is just me--->I don't like shopping in real life, so if I can just say I want ___ and get on with the game that is fine by me.
I can understand and agree with that. I am not trying to make it into an eternal shopping expedition. I would not enjoy that from either side of the screen.
But I also don't like every item I can dream up no matter how bizarre or unique is instantly available anywhere.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Low magic has never been the default for D&D since ever. Not in 1E, not in 2E, and certainly not in Pathfinder. Seriously, this "back in my day it was low magic" is purely wishful thinking on some people's parts. Every adventure module released had loot crammed everywhere it could fit. Why? Because even old time GMs realized that getting loot is fun (and crucial to your advancement back far enough).
If you want to play low magic, D&D and it's progeny have never been the system you are looking for. That isn't to say you can't play them that way, but you are literally fighting the game and it's expectations every step of the way.
Low magic has never been the default for D&D since ever. Not in 1E, not in 2E, and certainly not in Pathfinder. Seriously, this "back in my day it was low magic" is purely wishful thinking on some people's parts. Every adventure module released had loot crammed everywhere it could fit. Why? Because even old time GMs realized that getting loot is fun (and crucial to your advancement back far enough).
If you want to play low magic, D&D and it's progeny have never been the system you are looking for. That isn't to say you can't play them that way, but you are literally fighting the game and it's expectations every step of the way.
What is mostly being discussed here isn't necessarily low magic (though I happen to like a low magic item campaign). It is more the concept of how easy it is to get exactly the particular unique item you are looking for right away.
And that is generally speaking a change from the earlier days. When we started playing there were a pretty fair number of +1 or +2 swords encountered. But if you wanted a +2 spiked merciful shield of bashing and throwing, it was going to be very difficult to get your hands on it regardless of how much cash you had on hand. There were not many rules on how to make it yourself and most DM's would default to extremely difficult to make needing all sorts of special ingredients which usually happened to be parts of insanely dangerous creatures. That being the case, it was also very hard to get someone to make it for you, and you wouldn't just happen to find it in a shop.
... that's really what a lot of this thread is: some DMs hate their players and think of them as bratty, spoiled children who have to be punished and controlled (makes you wonder why they all hang out together). ...
Completely untrue as well as thoroughly and needlessly obnoxious.
I like the players and GM's in my groups or I would be in the group. I do not punish or control them. We talk about what we want to see in a campaign and all of us strive to provide that for everyone.
The majority of the group prefers nearly perfect accessibility to magic items so that is how we play. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer significantly less perfect accessibility, both as a player and a GM.
... that's really what a lot of this thread is: some DMs hate their players and think of them as bratty, spoiled children who have to be punished and controlled (makes you wonder why they all hang out together). ...Completely untrue as well as thoroughly and needlessly obnoxious.
I like the players and GM's in my groups or I would be in the group. I do not punish or control them. We talk about what we want to see in a campaign and all of us strive to provide that for everyone.
The majority of the group prefers nearly perfect accessibility to magic items so that is how we play. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer significantly less perfect accessibility, both as a player and a GM.
Well, I wouldn't say completely untrue. I am sure there are GMs out there who have had players that were a handful, just like there are players that dislike Gms that are too controlling because of that one time with the guy with the thing that scarred them for life.
Our tables have swung the entire range from low to high magic, from barely finding anything to get by on to tripping over artifacts on the way to the Biggest Magical Emporium ever. I prefer a middle range, myself, as a GM and a player both. I don't prefer having players that are never able to find an item they could use or want, but at the same time I dislike being handed a spread sheet and being told that the player won't have a good time if they don't get X by Y level.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Low magic has never been the default for D&D since ever. Not in 1E, not in 2E, and certainly not in Pathfinder. Seriously, this "back in my day it was low magic" is purely wishful thinking on some people's parts. Every adventure module released had loot crammed everywhere it could fit. Why? Because even old time GMs realized that getting loot is fun (and crucial to your advancement back far enough).
If you want to play low magic, D&D and it's progeny have never been the system you are looking for. That isn't to say you can't play them that way, but you are literally fighting the game and it's expectations every step of the way.
Certainly not in Pathfinder, I'll give you that - but since no one here is mentioning PF being a low magic game I don't know why you mentioned it. No one was auguring that it was at its default (unless I missed something)
As to 1e and 2e some facts from the 70's -90's disagree with you:
A) Not everyone ran modules
B) There was no mechanical need for gear as you leveled up besides the increasing +X needed to-hit for fighters. That was the closest thing to a Christmas tree effect for those systems.
Modules frequently broke their own rule of Monty haul-ism and are a terrible metric for continued campaign balance since they are all over the place. Also keeping in mind that while some adventures did give out quite a bit of loot - they also assumed party sizes of 6 to 8 people, so you needed more items to go around.
Going by some pre-made Module PCs is also a bad example (sticking to modules) since many were heavily outfitted with magic while others were woefully crappy in their gear... as in 7th level character with one solid reusable item and the rest expendables (potions and scrolls). Go back and re-read some of those pre-made characters, those +2's and +3s on armor you remember were also on armor that was subpar (fighters wearing +2 splint or chain, etc).
Looking at the Slavers series I can see more that a few 5th and 6th level characters (these are ones you are supposed to play) with NO MAGIC WEAPONS.
Edit: Just reading my notes from the original B2:Keep on the Borderlands: 6-9 players recommended. If you have less than 6, the party needs help. Man, that thing was a meatgrinder!