So when will we get "Destiny" grade graphics?


Pathfinder Online


I know they spent like.... 500x more on their game than GW's budget. But they didn't have the awesoMIKEitude that GW's art team has. So GW can pull it off for cheap, right?

Goblin Squad Member

Pull it off on the cheap, Sorry won't happen.

Art work, engine, and server upgrades needed would cost a lot.


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That was a rhetorical question, but thanks for the real answer :P

It does really put things into perspective, though, seeing what *can* be done on one level, and seeing what is totally fine and effective on another.

The GW world has its issues and still has lots of room to grow within its own technological limitations; but it's still easy to get "lost in a forest" without having all the shiny graphics of $500 MILLION game.

I honestly can't help but wonder what Destiny has to offer beyond just being another first-person shooter with AMAZING graphics. Its called "Destiny;" but can it really allow the player to determine their own destiny the way PFO can?

Goblin Squad Member

Maybe we liken it to a TT game. You can play an RPG with flat cardboard counters to represent the players' characters and mobs. It's better - or at least more appreciated - to use figurines. Say we put effort into it and spend an average of 3 hours to paint each figurine. If we were to spend 30 hours per figurine, would the game be 10 times as good? I'd say that art is good, and some amount of art is really required. But art can only can do so much.

Goblin Squad Member

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We already have, from what I can tell, greater depth of gameplay than Destiny, which is my reason for being here :-).

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
Maybe we liken it to a TT game. You can play an RPG with flat cardboard counters to represent the players' characters and mobs. It's better - or at least more appreciated - to use figurines.

Sidetrack Warning

Have you seen these? Paizo has elevated their cardboard counters above anything that came before. (Beyond any I'd seen, anyway.) In my group, the players have their painted metal minis, but as GM, I can present a far greater variety of NPCs and beasties as pawns than I could afford (or carry) in metal form.

Goblin Squad Member

@OP

This has been answered in detail in a badly titled and insulting thread (somewhere in these forums), but Ryan has indicated that graphics will start basic and improve over time to AAA quality levels.

Just wait a bit and the relevant quote will magically appear... :)

Goblin Squad Member

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When I started in TT, our characters were nothing more than their initials to indicate where they were on a piece of graph paper that we hand-mapped as we explored.

You people are all soft!

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
...above anything that came before.

I'm not sure; I still miss Cardboard Heroes...no plastic involved.

Goblin Squad Member

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We had to get up half an hour before we went to bed and lick the map board clean with our tongues before having our initials carved into the ends of our fingers with a rusty knife so that we could leave a stamp in blood where our characters were....

Goblin Squad Member

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Giorgo wrote:

... Ryan has indicated that graphics will start basic and improve over time to AAA quality levels.

Just wait a bit and the relevant quote will magically appear... :)

There are so many variables that go into the "graphics" of an MMO it's very hard to discuss one element of them without discussing the impact on others.

As with all things in Pathfinder Online, our objective is to implement the "minimum viable" level of a feature, then decide over time how and when to iterate it.


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Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
We had to get up half an hour before we went to bed and lick the map board clean with our tongues before having our initials carved into the ends of our fingers with a rusty knife so that we could leave a stamp in blood where our characters were....

lol And here I have my own custom minis for all my favorite characters, replete with a large wolf than can be set on either a full 2x2 base or a "squeezing" 1x2 base :)

I'm not critiquing the quality of the graphics any. I am actually lauding the fact that this game offers so much more than a $500 million visual-porn-feast of a game. Or at least that was my intention, if not well communicated.

Anyways, part of what I think we loose with all our high-end SFX is the ability to fill in the gaps with our own imagination, and in that make a thing far greater than whatever appearances might make it seem.

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon,

That is a good quote, but not the one I was thinking about. The quote started in a thread that was dismissive, insulting, doom and gloom about the "crappy" graphics, became a long running multipage joke, and I am pretty sure Kobold Cleaver did something "creative" there. :)

Let me finish the errand I am on, and I will hunt it down.... :)

Goblin Squad Member

Giorgo wrote:

@Nihimon,

That is a good quote, but not the one I was thinking about. The quote started in a thread that was dismissive, insulting, doom and gloom about the "crappy" graphics, became a long running multipage joke, and I am pretty sure Kobold Cleaver did something "creative" there. :)

Seriously guys, the visuals are crap is almost surely the thread you're thinking of, but there's no succinct statement from Ryan about iterating over graphics.

Goblin Squad Member

Giorgo wrote:

@Nihimon,

That is a good quote, but not the one I was thinking about. The quote started in a thread that was dismissive, insulting, doom and gloom about the "crappy" graphics, became a long running multipage joke, and I am pretty sure Kobold Cleaver did something "creative" there. :)

Let me finish the errand I am on, and I will hunt it down.... :)

I should note that necromancing that particular thread is likely to get you onto several "lists" as a few people have been very adamant about letting it die.

Goblin Squad Member

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...And now, to give you a little insight what it's like to be inside a writer's brain, I will be obsessed for a few weeks, or months, with needing to write a zombie short story called "Necromancing the Stone."

Goblin Squad Member

Hopefully folks will read Guurzak's final post in that thread before necro'ing it.

Goblin Squad Member

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Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
...And now, to give you a little insight what it's like to be inside a writer's brain, I will be obsessed for a few weeks, or months, with needing to write a zombie short story called "Necromancing the Stone."

Once you finish it, for the love of God, just stop and walk away. Don't go back to that well; there's almost certainly only enough material for one decent production...

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
KarlBob wrote:
...above anything that came before.
I'm not sure; I still miss Cardboard Heroes...no plastic involved.

I remember those. If they can find some originals, SJG should scan them and sell them as a pdf.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
...And now, to give you a little insight what it's like to be inside a writer's brain, I will be obsessed for a few weeks, or months, with needing to write a zombie short story called "Necromancing the Stone."
Once you finish it, for the love of God, just stop and walk away. Don't go back to that well; there's almost certainly only enough material for one decent production...

I think the world absolutely needs a "Jewel of the Defile(r)"...

Goblin Squad Member

You know when I look at PFO and compare the art to big budget titles the main difference I see is the grass. If we could just have skyrim grass I think PFO would look a gazillion times better. After that id look at water and then metalics. P.S. the grass in the tech demo was better then the weird tufts of cartoon grass we have ingame now take a look and compare http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PBfkdjJqIyQ/UwZIRde_SfI/AAAAAAAA3dg/PffeRY4fZfY/s 1600/Pathfinder+Online+l.png

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon

1- Yes that is the correct thread, thanks for finding it for me.

2- There was no dev quote there pertinent to the subject matter, I remembered incorrectly.

3- The last post by Guurzak is valuable, and I hope the thread doesn't
get necro-ed. I apologize to all if it does.

4- Cal B, technically Nihimon necro-ed the offending thread, but it was at my request. So do we BOTH get the Heinous flag? :)

Goblin Squad Member

Giorgo wrote:
4- Cal B, technically Nihimon necro-ed the offending thread, but it was at my request. So do we BOTH get the Heinous flag? :)

So far it's only quoted, not necro'd, so you both get "Opportunity" but not heinous, yet.

Goblin Squad Member

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If this were EVE the response would be ... "I am opposed to good graphics as it will attract the wrong sort of player and the money is better spent on more spaceships playable races. "


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*Read Guurzak's last comment from a certain dead thread*

Now I feel guilty! I'm creating a new thread.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
Maybe we liken it to a TT game. You can play an RPG with flat cardboard counters to represent the players' characters and mobs. It's better - or at least more appreciated - to use figurines. Say we put effort into it and spend an average of 3 hours to paint each figurine. If we were to spend 30 hours per figurine, would the game be 10 times as good? I'd say that art is good, and some amount of art is really required. But art can only can do so much.

Who stops at painted figurines? 3D dungeons is the way to go. This is when the game truly starts to shine.

Yes, yes I'm also Thod - owner of Thod's Bazaar - sole European Dwarvenforge Distributor.

Just had to add this here as advertisement if we discuss how to improve the TT experience Destiniy style.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Everyone has different priorities, and a love for high-end graphics is certainly a reasonable position. For my part, though, I couldn't care less about the graphics and would have no problem with them pretty close to the bottom of the development priority list.

Goblin Squad Member

Traianus Decius Aureus wrote:

When I started in TT, our characters were nothing more than their initials to indicate where they were on a piece of graph paper that we hand-mapped as we explored.

You people are all soft!

And the graph paper was soggy from all that snow.


Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
...And now, to give you a little insight what it's like to be inside a writer's brain, I will be obsessed for a few weeks, or months, with needing to write a zombie short story called "Necromancing the Stone."

If you write a follow up called "Jewel of the Necromancer"...well, there will be some words.

Goblin Squad Member

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By Crom, I almost wept with joy the first time I saw a dry-erase battlemat with a grid on one side and proper hexes on the other!

Goblinworks Executive Founder

To the original post:

Take the number of people in the art division that made Destiny.
Multiply by the number of years they worked on Destiny so far.
Divide by the number of people doing art for PFO.

That will give you the number of years since PFO started development until the graphics in PFO are equivalent to the current graphics in Destiny. This equation requires you to take the integrand of artists over time when the art departments change size, but that can be accomplished through approximations left as an exercise to the reader.

Note that with the expected size of art teams, PFO will never catch up to Destiny.

CEO, Goblinworks

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Zeke Garcia, one of our character artists, worked on Destiny. We get Destiny quality work right now! :)

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:

Who stops at painted figurines? 3D dungeons is the way to go. This is when the game truly starts to shine.

Yes, yes I'm also Thod - owner of Thod's Bazaar - sole European Dwarvenforge Distributor.

Just had to add this here as advertisement if we discuss how to improve the TT experience Destiniy style.

I really like the pdf terrain and buildings, like Dave Graffam Models, Lord Zsezse Works, World Works Games, etc., produce. Some of them need to be altered a bit to make battlemat-sized buildings, but they're pretty cool. The Maiden of the High Seas even got a plug in Book 2 of Skull & Shackles.

Anyway, enough product plugs from me.

(Seriously, though, if you haven't seen it, take a look at the Maiden. It took some work to put it together, but it's an awesome prop.)

Edit: Dwarven Forge's stuff looks pretty amazing, but as a state employee, I'm afraid it's a little ways above my price range.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Zeke Garcia, one of our character artists, worked on Destiny. We get Destiny quality work right now! :)

Random questions. By any chance do your various artists have online portfolios and could we get links to them?

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
Traianus Decius Aureus wrote:

When I started in TT, our characters were nothing more than their initials to indicate where they were on a piece of graph paper that we hand-mapped as we explored.

You people are all soft!

And the graph paper was soggy from all that snow.

... and you were lucky. We had to make do with rocks for characters and draw our maps with charcoal on old newspapers.

Goblin Squad Member

KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
Traianus Decius Aureus wrote:

When I started in TT, our characters were nothing more than their initials to indicate where they were on a piece of graph paper that we hand-mapped as we explored.

You people are all soft!

And the graph paper was soggy from all that snow.
... and you were lucky. We had to make do with rocks for characters and draw our maps with charcoal on old newspapers.

Luxury!

Goblin Squad Member

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...and you try and tell the young people of today that...they won't believe you.

Goblin Squad Member

Right.

I had to get up at 4am a half an hour before I went to sleep and grind my own lead with my TEETH to draw on a piece of moldy deerskin floating down river. And I was THANKFUL for that.

Goblin Squad Member

You had deerskin? You were lucky.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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We had to paint the outline of our characters' hands on cave walls using red ochre pigments!

Goblin Squad Member

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You had a cave ?? Sheer luxury. We would have given anything for a cave.

Goblin Squad Member

One of the guys in my gaming group climbed down from the tree and went looking for a cave. We never saw him again.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
One of the guys in my gaming group climbed down from the tree and went looking for a cave. We never saw him again.

hmmph trolls


KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
Urman wrote:
One of the guys in my gaming group climbed down from the tree and went looking for a cave. We never saw him again.
hmmph trolls

Yeah, he really should have tried harder at distracting them until the sunrise.

Goblin Squad Member

Wszebor Uriev wrote:

Right.

I had to get up at 4am a half an hour before I went to sleep and grind my own lead with my TEETH to draw on a piece of moldy deerskin floating down river. And I was THANKFUL for that.

you were allowed to stay up until 4.30 AM?!

ps: no need to use your teeth, if you bang two flints together just right you can get a universal tool that's good for nearly anything.

I miss the old days when we had to carve our own dice from mammoth tusks. "1d4 with of damage" really meant something if you had the right throwing technique.

Jazzlvraz wrote:


...and you try and tell the young people of today that...they won't believe you.

so true, so true.

nor do the older ones, actually.


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*Subtly communicates with you*

PEOPLE! LET THIS THREAD DIE! Its title is *terrible* and never should be allowed to see the light of the top of the forum threads ever ever again! Now be good, responsible citizens of the River Kingdoms and move your tails- er, tales of.... whatever over to the new thread:

"Destiny: $500 million and it STILL can't touch the depth of play GW will achieve with PFO"

Please.

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