Goblin Squad Member
|
There are pretty simple answers to the "I want to build this bit of technology because I know how it's done in the real world"
A) This place doesn't work on the same physical and meta-physical laws that our Universe does.
B) You may know how to build a PC from scratch but your character is a guy with a big sword who walks around thinking that maggots spring into being from rotting grain and thunder happens because the gods are angry... and half the time he's right!
.......
I've always found fire-arms or any sort of semi-modern technology kind of genre bending and incongrous for a Fantasy based RPG... however it is true Golarion has them.
One thing that could be done to help balance them would be to have higher damage but impliment a misfire chance...with either the powder not igniting or detonating too strongly and damaging the weapon and the user. This was actualy quite common in early fire-arms as manufacture of the powder was far from a uniform process and you'd get alot of varience in potentcy from one batch to the next.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
They want to play A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court campaign setting?
Many became fans of Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series when it began, and would've liked nothing more than to Mary Sue their way through such a campaign.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So getting back to the central question of this thread, can I or can I not obtain a Sturm Ruger GP100 submodel KGP-141, whether now or in the future of this game? My entire understanding of life hinges on this issue!
You can call your short-sword whatever you like...
(edit: Just keep it clean and covered up.)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yeah. I like the heft of the gun, but I'm a relatively thin-framed guy, so the 4" barrel has a more natural feel to me. I can also barely conceal it in a full winter coat. I can't imagine having two more inches on that thing.
Obviously I'm being facetious about its inclusion in the game, but I really like that gun. She's accurate, reliable, and has gotten me through some kinda scary situations. I'll leave it at that since I'm just trying to be silly and not start a political debate over gun ownership.
As for the guns they're more likely to put in the game, I have to say there's something infinitely more satisfying about "BLAM!" than the "thwip" of a bow.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I have to say there's something infinitely more satisfying about "BLAM!" than the "thwip" of a bow.
I couldn't disagree more. There were few things more frustrating to me than standing next to a Dwarven Hunter using a gun in WoW. I realize they're canon, and lots of folks like them (including Lee), but I'd rather not encounter them in-game. At least, I'd like to be able to avoid areas where they're common.
|
Goblinworks Game Designer
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Your Character doesn't have that knowledge" seems the best response to these kinds of shenanigans.
"No, you can't make usable explosives, but if you want to try anyway I can let you make a Reflex save to see whether you blow your hand off when it all goes horribly wrong."
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...standing next to a Dwarven Hunter using a gun in WoW.
It's not surprising how many folks wanted to play one after the spectacle of that first trailer, though.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It's a direct reference to an earlier conversation where Decius was going on about how experience from previous titles was not that useful and I needed to get educated in all kinds of different theories instead.
Just as with real world employers, practical experience is going to matter a hell of a lot more here than book knowledge and theory as I feel has been clearly demonstrated here.
Yes, but I can multiply.
I would spend four times the expected loss of equipment in order to use half the players to accomplish an objective that was worth the risk.
If a firearms loadout has twice the cost, they need to be 40% more effective to be balanced. Note that the cost of the firearm is only part of the cost if the loadout, and it probably contributes little to the expected loss (due to threading).
I can also describe how to convert cost and effectiveness to numbers that can be compared to each other.
And I think that your outcomes of leading large groups speaks for itself.
*basic points of your argument*
"In order to be balanced you must follow this equation. By that equation firearms are too powerful."
Great argument. I'm glad that knowledge of multiplication paid off so well.
I'll try a new equation on you, based on logic instead.
In order to be balanced firearms must offer an advantage sufficient to make their enhanced difficulty to produce worthwhile, but not such an obvious choice everyone decides to use them.
That's not a set number but something that can and should be adjusted until firearms have a prevalence the developers are ok with.
It should probably start with firearms being a bit too expensive to be worthwhile for anyone but the diehard enthusiasts so that it balances out as the economy grows.
Also as I described earlier, threading doesn't really change the equation at all if the number of threads to thread the firearms is increased to reflect it's higher value.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Has firearms technology in Golarion moved past the muzzle loading stage?
Because otherwise reloading takes a long time (I've heard max 3 shots per minute).Maybe rifles could be useful for focus fire bursts (a group of musketeers picking of a target together) or a shoot-and-take cover to reload for 20 (well, make it 10)s thing.
Pistols could maybe replace the slot normally taken by rogue kit, spellbook, totem etc, with long cooldowns making it a once or twice per encounter thing.
That is, unless technology has moved past that stage. I think it would be interesting to make firearms different from other ranged weapons and not just having rifles as reskinned longbows and pistols as reskinned shortbows.
Mandating long reload times for firearms requires holding firearm realism to a much higher standard than bow realism. I felt the same way about muzzle loading firearms at first, but then it was pointed out to me that reloading and firing a flintlock once per round is no less realistic than reloading and firing a bow half a dozen times per round. We've just had longer to get used to the unrealistic treatment of bows than guns.
Yes, a few very talented people in the real world can load and fire a bow pretty rapidly. In Golarion, a lot of people can shoot bows and crossbows very rapidly.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So I'm just going to riff here a bit on the gun idea.
I think the basic concepts put forth in the Pathfinder SRD make sense, at least for a pen-and-paper RPG. Those ideas might carry over fairly well to an online game. They're costly, difficult to reload, and have similar damage to a crossbow, but ignore all but the most outlandish armor.
I'll admit some ignorance about Golarion, so I don't know what tech level the guns have reached. If there are no cartridges, then it would take several types of items in your inventory to load the gun (powder, shot, cap or match, ramrod, and wadding).
If this is prior to the advent of the Minié and/or barrel-rifling, the accurate range would be 20 - 75 yards (pistol) and 50 - 175 yards (rifle), which is significantly less than a longbow (~350 yards), crossbow (~150-300) yards, and sling (~400 yards). I'm presuming combat is meant to happen at much closer ranges, so I'd imagine these will be scaled down to smaller distances.
In terms of their uniqueness, I'd like to see them expensive, lengthy to load, and inaccurate at long ranges. But if one hits, woe be unto you. My beef with WoW hunters was you got "blam...blam...blam...blam..." all for relatively uninspiring results, as opposed to "BOOM!" and something just got seriously hurt.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
It's a direct reference to an earlier conversation where Decius was going on about how experience from previous titles was not that useful and I needed to get educated in all kinds of different theories instead.
Just as with real world employers, practical experience is going to matter a hell of a lot more here than book knowledge and theory as I feel has been clearly demonstrated here.
Yes, but I can multiply.
I would spend four times the expected loss of equipment in order to use half the players to accomplish an objective that was worth the risk.
If a firearms loadout has twice the cost, they need to be 40% more effective to be balanced. Note that the cost of the firearm is only part of the cost if the loadout, and it probably contributes little to the expected loss (due to threading).
I can also describe how to convert cost and effectiveness to numbers that can be compared to each other.
And I think that your outcomes of leading large groups speaks for itself.
*basic points of your argument*
"In order to be balanced you must follow this equation. By that equation firearms are too powerful."
Great argument. I'm glad that knowledge of multiplication paid off so well.
I'll try a new equation on you, based on logic instead.
In order to be balanced firearms must offer an advantage sufficient to make their enhanced difficulty to produce worthwhile, but not such an obvious choice everyone decides to use them.
That's not a set number but something that can and should be adjusted until firearms have a prevalence the developers are ok with.
It should probably start with firearms being a bit too expensive to be worthwhile for anyone but the diehard enthusiasts so that it balances out as the economy grows.
Also as I described earlier, threading doesn't really change the equation at all if the number of threads to thread the firearms is increased to reflect it's higher value.
All true points; but none of those points provide an answer to the question of how much time and resources it should take to craft a firearm, nor how many threads they should take.
On the other hand, I can provide numbers to those questions with accuracy limited by the accuracy of measuring relative effectiveness.
Sometimes you can't afford the expected losses of going out with a little bit of equipment, but you can afford to go out loaded for bear.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Firearms in fantasy RPGs are also nothing new. I own a battered hardcover copy of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, 1st Edition, from 1986. It has rules for pistols, blunderbuss(es?), rifles, and cannon. All of them have a chance of blowing up when fired.
The place where guns are relatively new is specifically in the Dungeons & Dragons lineage of RPGs.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
So I'm just going to riff here a bit on the gun idea.
I think the basic concepts put forth in the Pathfinder SRD make sense, at least for a pen-and-paper RPG. Those ideas might carry over fairly well to an online game. They're costly, difficult to reload, and have similar damage to a crossbow, but ignore all but the most outlandish armor.
I'll admit some ignorance about Golarion, so I don't know what tech level the guns have reached. If there are no cartridges, then it would take several types of items in your inventory to load the gun (powder, shot, cap or match, ramrod, and wadding).
If this is prior to the advent of the Minié and/or barrel-rifling, the accurate range would be 20 - 75 yards (pistol) and 50 - 175 yards (rifle), which is significantly less than a longbow (~350 yards), crossbow (~150-300) yards, and sling (~400 yards). I'm presuming combat is meant to happen at much closer ranges, so I'd imagine these will be scaled down to smaller distances.
In terms of their uniqueness, I'd like to see them expensive, lengthy to load, and inaccurate at long ranges. But if one hits, woe be unto you. My beef with WoW hunters was you got "blam...blam...blam...blam..." all for relatively uninspiring results, as opposed to "BOOM!" and something just got seriously hurt.
The Navy Colt Revolver used a cap and ball system that took so long to reload that the military users also carried swords. However, six shots (per revolver) is a lot if you know how to make all of them count.
The PFO equivalent would be giving firearms their own damage type, not resisted by any normal armor, and a very small supply of ammo that required exiting combat to replenish. I know the PFRPG rules allow for magic to both create ammo and load it without the shooter taking actions to do so, but I'm not sure that type of effect could be fairly implemented in PFO.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think these might be good balance measures to go off of.
Firearm Pros:
1. Very powerful attacks that translate into higher DPS.
2. Very good armor penetration.
Firearm Cons:
1. Heavy stamina drain. Quickly depletes all available stamina and few low stamina attacks to offer for after it's drained unless it has bayonet attacks.
2. High skill requirements to create.
3. Recipe availability more sparse than other ranged weapons.
4. Longer crafting times needed to create.
5. Requirement of less common materials raises price to produce.
I don't think it's really wise to talk exact numbers at this point until we understand the relation between economy and power level a bit more.
Here is the basic idea though. A firearm is going to be more expensive to produce than say, a bow. It has higher material costs, higher requirements to create, and can't be produced as fast by the few people with the ability to do so.
When you are use a firearm you're going to be able to unload a very heavy amount of damage very quickly after which you need to switch to a different weapon to effectively finish your target if they are left standing. You're also going to be very effective vs. heavily armored targets.
Bows on the other hand are cheap and fast to produce. They have abilities such as "half-draw" you can fall back on when your stamina is running low and are just a better weapon in many situations.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yes, a few very talented people in the real world can load and fire a bow pretty rapidly. In Golarion, a lot of people can shoot bows and crossbows very rapidly.
Well not really. In Golarion 99.9% of the population can not use any weapon competently, have never seen or possibly even heard of things like a bag of holding (and would take 10 years earnings to afford one) and running into an adventurer in a tavern is about as likely as back in real life bumping into an olympic swimmer or famous rock star at the local super market.
I think these might be good balance measures to go off of.
Firearm Pros:
1. Very powerful attacks that translate into higher DPS.
2. Very good armor penetration.Firearm Cons:
1. Heavy stamina drain. Quickly depletes all available stamina and few low stamina attacks to offer for after it's drained unless it has bayonet attacks.
2. High skill requirements to create.
3. Recipe availability more sparse than other ranged weapons.
4. Longer crafting times needed to create.
5. Requirement of less common materials raises price to produce.I don't think it's really wise to talk exact numbers at this point until we understand the relation between economy and power level a bit more.
Here is the basic idea though. A firearm is going to be more expensive to produce than say, a bow. It has higher material costs, higher requirements to create, and can't be produced as fast by the few people with the ability to do so.
When you are use a firearm you're going to be able to unload a very heavy amount of damage very quickly after which you need to switch to a different weapon to effectively finish your target if they are left standing. You're also going to be very effective vs. heavily armored targets.
Bows on the other hand are cheap and fast to produce. They have abilities such as "half-draw" you can fall back on when your stamina is running low and are just a better weapon in many situations.
I would add:
Firearm Pros:
3. Longer Range.
4. Better at lower skill levels to use
Firearm Cons:
6. Misfires and can do damage to person firing
7. At higher skill levels do not improve as much per level
8. have a reload time
Potentially higher skill levels could just reduce misfire rather increasing damage/effectiveness
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Well not really. In Golarion 99.9% of the population can not use any weapon competently, have never seen or possibly even heard of things like a bag of holding (and would take 10 years earnings to afford one) and running into an adventurer in a tavern is about as likely as back in real life bumping into an olympic swimmer or famous rock star at the local super market.
Yes, a few very talented people in the real world can load and fire a bow pretty rapidly. In Golarion, a lot of people can shoot bows and crossbows very rapidly.
If they like to eat, I think many rural peasants can use at least one or two weapons. Not at the 'six shots in six seconds' level, but well enough to hunt, and well enough to keep a few goblins from burning their crops and ransacking their houses.
Walk into a Pathfinder Society lodge, though, and the situation changes. How many people play PFS? How many of them have super bow wielding feats? If Golarion has a population equivalent to the Renaissance, and all the PFS players are canon, then they represent a measurable fraction of a percent of the world's population.
(Edit: I'd say this just reinforces the notion that every single PFS character should not be assumed to be real in-game. As a Renaissance-era organization, the Society would be huge if they were.)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
All true points; but none of those points provide an answer to the question of how much time and resources it should take to craft a firearm, nor how many threads they should take.
I don't presume any answer put forth to that question right now will prove balanced in-game beyond a very general, "The cost should scale up significantly faster than the power level."
If they were to scale proportionally than always paying for the most expensive gear possible actually would be a good idea in most situations.
It's the question of whether that extra expenditure is worth the non-proportional hike in power that could potentially be the difference between victory and defeat that makes the decision meaningful.
Nobody can claim to know the best curve without thorough knowledge of the economy and rate of gear loss in PFO that none of us have.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The Navy Colt Revolver used a cap and ball system that took so long to reload that the military users also carried swords. However, six shots (per revolver) is a lot if you know how to make all of them count.
I completely agree. Military forces in industrialized nations were still fielding units primarily armed for melee well into the modern era. The reason was that firearms were great for volley fire at short-to-mid range, but because of a slow rate of fire and questionable accuracy, a determined force could overrun their lines before being wiped out. Sure, there were dead bodies aplenty from those volleys, but they could still get swords and spears into the target army.
Obviously that changed as the rate-of-fire and reliability of firearms improved, but I presume Golarion weapons aren't on the tech level of belt-fed machine guns.
Not that I'm running the game, but that's how I'd love to see firearms work. They're expensive, slow, etc, and as such, it will suck to get hit by one. But unless the field conditions are absolutely perfect, 50 guys with guns will not kill 50 guys with swords before at least some of them reach melee range. And that's a huge loss, given the cost of building, maintaining, and training associated with the firearms.
Total War did it pretty well in Shogun 2. They're dangerous, but they only work as part of a larger strategy; they aren't an "I WIN" button.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Long animation times, combined with Immobile, and limited ability to apply status effects would make firearms require significant support from other weapon types. High damage per second and the ability to exploit status effects (e.g. Knockdown on Unbalanced) would make them a valuable part of the mix.
And the hybrid firearm/melee weapons, like the bayonet musket and axe-pistol, create a varied space for the long term
|
I support Firearms as VERY slow weapons, with a range of appropriate attack feats that require longer periods of time than average to refresh. They will generally provoke opportunity as well, and may even be impacted by interrupt effects like an Aim ability etc.
Function just like any other ranged weapon with the Piercing, Gunpowder, Masterworks, Explosive, & Artifact keywords. They should be extremely complex, and I assume they will be added through Recipies very slowly with high resource reqs to fill. Perhaps a Faction would be appropriate for a Training facility even.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...Golarion weapons aren't on the tech level of belt-fed machine guns.
Nope, and think of the fun of starting with Gatling guns. The art department would hate us forever, but the animation'd look great in-game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If everyone wants firearms to have glacial rates of fire, can I assume that Legolas clones firing six arrows into six orcs in six seconds will also be deemed unrealistic? Somehow, I doubt it.
In my opinion, guns should be treated no more and no less realistically than bows and crossbows.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...Golarion weapons aren't on the tech level of belt-fed machine guns.Nope, and think of the fun of starting with Gatling guns. The art department would hate us forever, but the animation'd look great in-game.
We could also start a couple of steps back from Mr. Gatling with the Puckle gun.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...the Puckle gun.Well done, KarlBob.
Thanks. I found out about the Puckle Gun while researching ways to bring more guns into Skull & Shackles. I like the idea of putting one in the bow and one in the stern of a certain ship, and setting up a nice crossfire for the players to pass through.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I learned recently that Lewis & Clark took an air gun on their expedition across North America. It could fire 22 .46 Caliber round balls, which is what it held in its "magazine". It can fire over 40 rounds before noticeably losing its effectiveness.
Took 1500 pumps of a bicycle-type pump to charge it up.
http://nramuseum.com Lewis and Clark's secret weapon - a late 18th Century .46 cal. 20 shot repeating air rifle by Girandoni , as used in the Napoleonic Wars. A Treasure Gun from the NRA National Firearms Museum. See more at http://NRAmuseum.com. Narrated by Phil Schreier.
So lets make those. :-)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If everyone wants firearms to have glacial rates of fire, can I assume that Legolas clones firing six arrows into six orcs in six seconds will also be deemed unrealistic? Somehow, I doubt it.
In my opinion, guns should be treated no more and no less realistically than bows and crossbows.
For me, it's not an issue of realism so much as distinctiveness. If GW is going to introduce an entire new category of weapons, I'd like it to offer more than just a change of art. I just think that in this case, the properties that would make guns more distinct than simply being bows with a different sound effect (like they are in WoW) can be drawn from their historical properties: slow to load, but with excellent damage and armor penetration.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...Lewis & Clark took an air gun on their expedition...
Lovely piece of technology. If Golarion's firearms-tech is at mid-19th Century level, perhaps their machining industry's capable of the tolerances needed for it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
For me, it's not an issue of realism so much as distinctiveness. If GW is going to introduce an entire new category of weapons, I'd like it to offer more than just a change of art. I just think that in this case, the properties that would make guns more distinct than simply being bows with a different sound effect (like they are in WoW) can be drawn from their historical properties: slow to load, but with excellent damage and armor penetration.If everyone wants firearms to have glacial rates of fire, can I assume that Legolas clones firing six arrows into six orcs in six seconds will also be deemed unrealistic? Somehow, I doubt it.
In my opinion, guns should be treated no more and no less realistically than bows and crossbows.
That sounds like a fair trade-off.
I'll have to check out that Lewis and Clark gun. I've never heard of it before.
If everyone wants firearms to have glacial rates of fire, can I assume that Legolas clones firing six arrows into six orcs in six seconds will also be deemed unrealistic? Somehow, I doubt it.
In my opinion, guns should be treated no more and no less realistically than bows and crossbows.
Muzzle-loaded rifles realistically took about a minute to load and ready. By contrast, I, as a relative novice, can load and fire my recurve bow from my quiver about 1-shot per 4-5 seconds. Experienced archers and MANY bow hunters (traditional, not compound) today can easily do this in 2-3 seconds per shot. Experienced medieval archers could easily do the same.
So, 6 shots in 6 seconds is a bit unrealistic for most archers, but 6 shots in 15 seconds is absolutely not.
Quick shooting by modern archer
The woman in this video isn't rushing; she's just very fluid and using an overhand knocking technique that I really want to learn, but haven't had time to start practicing yet. She's using a relatively low-draw-weight bow and firing short range, with considerable accuracy. Most archers used an overhand knocking and many used a ring with a hook on it to draw the bow and release. Firing this way is significantly faster than underhand knocking that requires you to move your hand around the bow string after knocking and before firing.
However, it's still possible to knock an arrow and fire in about 4-5 seconds even using the normal underhand shooting method you see most modern archers (who aren't concerned about speed) use today.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Firearm Pros:
1. Very powerful attacks that translate into higher DPS.
2. Very good armor penetration.Firearm Cons:
1. Heavy stamina drain. Quickly depletes all available stamina and few low stamina attacks to offer for after it's drained unless it has bayonet attacks.
*Crafting related Cons*When you are use a firearm you're going to be able to unload a very heavy amount of damage very quickly after which you need to switch to a different weapon to effectively finish your target if they are left standing. You're also going to be very effective vs. heavily armored targets.
Burst damage is a pretty big upside. I'm going to be very tempted to take a firearm if that's the advantage I get. Even if the price is quite a bit higher.
That's not necessarily an argument against it, however the more relevant argument I might throw out against it is that when the gunslinger class is implemented they rely almost solely on the use of firearms. Forcing them to rely on a melee weapon after their shots are expended isn't really true to that class.
I would say these pro-cons should be specific to riles so that if they are forced to switch to another weapon they can use pistols or scatterguns as their backup.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
One thing I would be interested in seeing for firearms is ammo pouches. An item that goes in some kind of slot for the character to store ammo. This would be after the "ammo per fight" mechanic is implemented.
I'd say without one of these a firearm gives one shot per fight, but the better you have the more shots you get. Firearm ammo obviously includes blackpowder and making blackpowder materials a bit harder to obtain makes more sense to me than saying a gun's materials are hard to obtain.
Two additional parts you could add on to this:
1. When the gunslinger class comes out they can carry more rounds.
2. This could also be used for quivers for archers.
Terminator: The 12-gauge auto-loader.
Clerk: That's Italian. You can go pump or auto.
Terminator: The .45 long slide, with laser sighting.
Clerk: These are brand new - we just got them in. That's a good gun. Just touch the trigger, the beam comes on and you put the red dot where you want the bullet to go. You can't miss. Anything else?
Terminator: Phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range.
Clerk: Hey, just what you see pal.
Terminator: The Uzi nine millimeter.
Clerk: You know your weapons, buddy. Any one of these is ideal for home defense. So uh, which will it be?
Terminator: All.
Clerk: I may close early today. There's a 15 day wait on the hand guns but the rifles you can take right now, and you have to fill these out too.
[Terminator is loading slugs into the shotgun] You can't do that.
Terminator: Wrong. [shoots Clerk]
haha.
So, I just counted the firing-rate in that video I posted, and she shoots 14 shots in 10 seconds with relative ease, even fumbling a grab or 2 when grabbing arrows from her quiver.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...Lewis & Clark took an air gun on their expedition...Lovely piece of technology. If Golarion's firearms-tech is at mid-19th Century level, perhaps their machining industry's capable of the tolerances needed for it.
We have Gnomes.
Enuf said.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
So, I just counted the firing-rate in that video I posted, and she shoots 14 shots in 10 seconds with relative ease, even fumbling a grab or 2 when grabbing arrows from her quiver.
And Usain Bolt does 100 m in 9.58s, which means that the average medieval soldier can travel 350km in 9.31 hours.
I'm not sure what you're referring to. I'm simply pointing out, that contrary to what KarlBob was stating, it is easy for an experienced archer to fire about 10 shots at a 2-second-per-shot pace. Hell, I can fire 10 shots in a minute and I'm a novice (and that's being generous).
I was involved in another gaming community where this was discussed at length and it's actually quite possible for experienced archers to fire what looks to us as extremely fast. Not as fast as Legolas in LOTR, but then again, he's an ELF, a mystical creature of grace and speed!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So, I just counted the firing-rate in that video I posted, and she shoots 14 shots in 10 seconds with relative ease, even fumbling a grab or 2 when grabbing arrows from her quiver.And Usain Bolt does 100 m in 9.58s, which means that the average medieval soldier can travel 350km in 9.31 hours.
Medieval kilometers were shorter.
Also, I looked up musket firing time (they were earlier and slower than rifles) and, from what I read, it looks like 17th century (1600s) muskets took about 1 minute to reload. By the 18th century (1700s) this was down to about 20 seconds per reload for experienced soldiers. By the 19th century (1800s) and the time of the civil war, it was down to about 10-15 seconds for experienced soldiers to re-load, aim, and fire.
1-minute per shot may be a bit extreme for gameplay in PFO, but could be used to balance extreme power. 20-second reload may be better gameplay balance. It's still nowhere near the 2-4 seconds per shot for an archer, which is about what it felt like when I used a bow in Alpha 7, but I'll check more carefully this weekend.
Additionally, early muskets were EXTREMELY inaccurate. I mean REALLY, REALLY inaccurate. (I can explain the reasons if anyone really wants to know.) Strategists put musket-men in formations that had lines 3 deep and had them shoot in rotations, or sometimes all at once. A cluster of shots would stream out of the formation and hopefully hit something that was in front of them. Early musket formations were guarded by pikemen in the front to defend them from cavalry charges.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I'm not sure what you're referring to. I'm simply pointing out, that contrary to what KarlBob was stating, it is easy for an experienced archer to fire about 10 shots at a 2-second-per-shot pace. Hell, I can fire 10 shots in a minute and I'm a novice (and that's being generous).
I was involved in another gaming community where this was discussed at length and it's actually quite possible for experienced archers to fire what looks to us as extremely fast. Not as fast as Legolas in LOTR, but then again, he's an ELF, a mystical creature of grace and speed!
I was involved in another gaming community were most guys were passionate by military history, and were convinced that the belgium army was superior in every way to Russia's, and that the EU would invade Moscow if they attacked the Ukraine.
And you can shoot ten shots a minute, which gives you a 40% superior efficiency than a regular mediaeval English bowman.