Goblin Squad Member
|
Ryan Described this very well here in this interview:
The core game loop
To make our MVP, we had to figure out what the smallest number of features were needed to implement a compelling game loop with meaningful human interactions. We decided that our loop would have two interconnected segments.
- Segment one would be finding monsters in the world, killing them, and taking their stuff.
- Segment two would be finding resources, harvesting those resources, and turning the resources into crafted goods.
- The interconnection would be that the stuff one character crafted would make another character better at killing monsters.
We also accepted that there would be a complication of this interconnection:
- Killing another character and taking its stuff would be a shortcut.
We have a grand plan for where our game will eventually take us that involves vast territorial battles for control of the map, fought by huge organizations of players collectively working together for common purpose. We imagine a time when players can build characters that are experts in a wide range of careers from soldier to diplomat to teamster to spy and hundreds more. But for the purposes of our MVP, we think we can be viable with the game loop described above. Everything else can (and will) come later.
I'm guessing the basic gameplay "feel" is the key as is the core combat and how fun that is. Then how those are a part of the above game loop successfully.
All comments appreciated. I'm probably going to hold off hopping into EE on day 1 (moving around and getting a new graphics card etc) but also will jump in when I think the above is up to standard.
Please provide your feedback modelled on the above or in a more relevant way?
Thanks.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've been playing as a refiner, but running PvE in parties with company members.
Segment one is there, with all hexes having some monsters, and monster hexes having escalations (which do spread into neighboring hexes if not dealt with).*
Segment two is there, with node harvests and PvE drops being turned into refined, then crafted, goods.
Segment three... I've only played in the latest Alpha, with accelerated xp gain and free achievements, so it's hard to say. I think, looking at the crafting recipes and character skill advancement, that by about Day 3 characters are going to be using more player-created items that increase their lethality. For example, the fighters' Trophy Charm item needs silver bars, and a smelter like my character will be able to create those sometime in the third day.
* Combat against monsters has some cool subtleties. Just one example: if you take on two bandits in melee, the one you aren't targeting will get sneak attacks, just as if you were fighting two PC rogues. So in every encounter with monsters you can consider their mix and your abilities and engage with a little more tactics.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
1) Done and ready
2) Done and ready
3) Done and ready
Each one of those need improvements but they are ready as MVP.
4) Not included
Referring to PVP as a complication is bothersome... The game has advertised the ability to do exactly what #4 says in multiple places including recent dev blogs and this article. Player loot drops do not exist yet. Even if it did, you wouldnt be able to play your character after the first or second time you did this.
This is not a feature of PFO. Lately I have been thinking that it is not much more then a ruse.
Hope I am wrong.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Thanks a lot Xeen.
Hrm, they did say PvP would be kept on a tight leash to begin with iirc / same with the economy? I'm hoping they'll loosen up on this over time eg contract system and career systems of being a bounty-hunter or bandit etc via flags?
What's the combat like? Satisfactory for MVP?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As of Alpha Build 7.1 I can see the overall direction of the above loops, but its not ready yet for prime time. Build 8 will add a lot of the missing pieces that will make the loop described above more complete and closer to MVP ready. I am quite happy with the progress so far and I look forward to the game.
Ask me again in week one of EE, eh? :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would say yes, the combat itself is fine. Maybe some balancing needed between classes. It does need a player targeting plan of some sort, right now its click targeting and only in a small area of the body. Must be close to get a lock, and if you both are moving it is difficult.
The economy itself is playable, granted we havent seen a lot of that yet, but players can cover what we do not have in Alpha 7. So no market or the like, but we have been trading.
Yes I agree, as of right now the flagging system would be preferred. (I dont much care for flagging but its better then nothing) I would take the old flagging plan in a heart beat.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
These are just the observations of a NON-ALPHA player from a few hours of watching streams:
1 and 2 are done in fairly rudimentary state. Especially the crafting parts. Due to the pretty limited testing I think we just don't know about #3 and especially #4.
I think the MVP is missing something very important right now though... and that is a PURPOSE. Even Ryan has said that launching EE (or MVP) without meaningful territory combat wouldn't make sense and that is why they were developing the War of the Towers as a placeholder.
I think it's a very key and valid question to ask when that functionality will be in game and functional because to me, that is really the feature that makes this a game and not just a pointless, kill monster fest with occasional pointless ganking via PvP.
Yeah I'm hoping the various player groups get their identities and parcels of land and become very territorial (and touchy!) and then seek to amass power and the strategy kicks in.
|
I think once territory kicks in the game world map becomes that much more dense and navigating a route more of an accomplishment itself.
On to that what do people make of the hex sizes and distance to travel?
That's a big parameter?
I think that given current mob density, and hex size it will quite onerous to get from one end of the map to another. Hopefully there will be enough incentive for players to take than hour+ trip across the map to see new things, but I fear much of the game core mechanics will be so "spread out" PCs will rarely do much more than a 4-5 hex outing before heading back unless the explicitly venture out for travel.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I'm understanding the build sequence, Alpha 8 is a true test of the three or four loops mentioned in the OP.
1. Killing Monsters: Yes it is there, but the variety is not. Bandits, Ogres, Goblins, Wolves and Skeletons and that is it.
2. The gathering seems to be fine, but the overall crafting system can not support early adventuring / combat roles with tier one gear.
In build 7, the only gear that drops is mostly tier 1 Fighter, Wizard weapons, and rarely armor.
Rogues can get a rare short sword drop, and Clerics a mace on rare occasions. No light or medium armor drops.
3. The interconnection is there, but there are gaps created by higher level materials to create lower tier items.
Overall the system would work better with more tier one drops for all classes, and the ability to take gear and break it down into components (salvaging) to be retooled into better or different gear.
4. Non existent. The only time PVP is engaged in is just before a server wipe, because you won't be able to train that character anymore. Without a means to PVP in a reputation neutral way, few if any will actually do it.
Secondly, even with the impending character wipe, a large segment of the player base wants to further limit PVP to a designated time and place and only with willing participants. That self described "Arena PVP" is the type of Theme Park PVP that produces boredom very quickly and will kill this game in the mid term (my opinion / prediction).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Crafting is reasonably functional already but ironically theh Alpha map is dropping supposed rare ingredients quite well now we can level to level 16 miner/dowser/forestor/scavenger but some supposedly basic items like copper and blue ink are almost non existent unless handed out by devs. The other issue is recipes picked up while in a party appear bugged.
Still. despite these hastles there are people producing some quite high level gear. The main problem with crafting is the casual crafter who generally wants to dabbler and has no inclination to go to the alpha forum and check the ingredient/substitute/recipe sheets is totally lost. There is nothing in game to indicate a perfect bloodstone counts as a lesser vital for example.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
The drop rate for starter gear should be roughly equal for all 4 roles.
I'll have Stephen check to make sure that short swords and short bows have the same basic drop rate as long swords. You get a long bow if you complete the tutorial.
I've seen plenty of wizard and cleric spellcasting items drop so I think there's no problem with getting them from hunting monsters.
Not sure what the drop rate is for armor. Wizards don't get any meaningful benefit from +0 Tier 1 cloth armor so they don't really need it to drop.
I'm note sure why you think that the crafting system can't support early adventuring / combat roles. There are recipes for all the gear in the game, those recipes require relatively easy to find resources, and the training for the processing and crafting Feats is readily available and cheap.
Crating implements is a much more complex process but the only role that really likes implements right now are Wizards and between their staves and wands they have plenty of things to do before they get a spellbook. That said, with a cold start character I crafted a Holy Symbol purely from loot drops, resources I harvested, and skills I trained on one character. I'm sure the same could be done for the other roles' implements.
There's a known issue right now with the ink you need to make a spellbook but that's just a matter of adjusting a variable in the loot table. The same with the current absence of copper. Neither of those things are "missing", they're just incorrectly configured in the loot tables and that's easy to fix.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Crating implements is a much more complex process but the only role that really likes implements right now are Wizards and between their staves and wands they have plenty of things to do before they get a spellbook. That said, with a cold start character I crafted a Holy Symbol purely from loot drops, resources I harvested, and skills I trained on one character. I'm sure the same could be done for the other roles' implements.
Yeah I crafted a divine focus for my cleric pretty much straight away.
Though in reality I have so far only had one spell drop to use with it so its more a cosmetic item.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
An issue that hasn't been addressed is the lack of Sawyer 9 refining in-game. While the ingredients drop, it is impossible to create the refined materials needed for higher level wizard/cleric implements/staves/wands without assistance from the devs.
I'm hoping this is corrected in Alpha 8 along with the known issue of refining ink and copper so that it will be possible to craft implements (other than spellbooks) without dev assistance
I also literally now have 30+ broken recipes on my character .. and have yet to find a single spell to use with the spellbook.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I've been trying to build up a wizard role primarily, this time round, but have ended with some significant fighter abilities because it took hours before I got any wizard drops (staff and wand) - plenty of starter weapons though (good thing there is no encumbrance yet) - and still have no basic robes or spellbook. Can't find what I need to craft a spellbook - no Blue for ink mostly. I haven't yet tried the trading thing.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The main problem with crafting is the casual crafter who generally wants to dabbler and has no inclination to go to the alpha forum and check the ingredient/substitute/recipe sheets is totally lost. There is nothing in game to indicate a perfect bloodstone counts as a lesser vital for example.
Yup. The scrap goblinoid and bandit weapons can be used as a substitute for copper ore. The nonstandard silver coins can be used as a sub for silver ore. Enough of those and a gem I think is all that is needed for a trophy charm.
I've had cloth, light, medium, and heavy armor drops, and all weapons except knife/dagger and shortbow. Kill enough stuff and eventually things drop.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I also literally now have 30+ broken recipes on my character .. and have yet to find a single spell to use with the spellbook.
I passed the broken ones on to a spare untrained char.
So far in-game I have had drops of Force Missile (Twice) Burning Hands (once) and the Cleric spell Blessed (once). So four spells.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I got one single cleric spell, inflict minor, to work. It took me a while before I even noticed that spells drop as loot similar to recipes, though. Actually, that was long after I finally finished crafting my Holy Symbol, was surprised to find no use for it and had switched the character to an archery fighter. Seemed extremely counter-intuitive for cleric spells that are supposedly granted by a deity to drop as loot.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Am I the only one who's been able to learn any Spells? I have several I can't learn, but I did manage to learn 5.
My Cleric learnt Blessed (or whatever tis called, bestows empowered for 2 rounds).
KotC Kazil (lady Moorshum) has been using Force Arrow and Burning Hands.
QUESTION - how do you speed up power recovery ?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
#1) There, no problem. Just not a big variations on different types.
#2) There, but needs tweaking. Some things just didn't drop, or hardly at all. Some T1 items required mats that just couldn't find.
#3) Barely there. You had to play town crier to trade and get anything. Needs auction house and storage.
#4) Not there. Went from 7500 rep to 2100 for one accidental hit. apparently you can never cancel an attack.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My character learned a bunch of spells, both arcane and divine. Granted to be able to use the arcane spells, I needed a staff and/or wand. Fortunately there was someone with those items already crafted.
If you needed a wand or staff, drained stamina (blue) and they slotted in the bottom row they were Cantrips.
Spells are cast from an equipped Spell Book, drain Power (yellow) and slot in the top row of the UI.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My character learned a bunch of spells, both arcane and divine. Granted to be able to use the arcane spells, I needed a staff and/or wand. Fortunately there was someone with those items already crafted.If you needed a wand or staff, drained stamina (blue) and they slotted in the bottom row they were Cantrips.
Spells are cast from an equipped Spell Book, drain Power (yellow) and slot in the top row of the UI.
Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering why they were easy to locate. I don't think I had a spell book.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Spells are cast from an equipped Spell Book, drain Power (yellow) and slot in the top row of the UI.
I'm not sure, but that may have been broken for cleric spells. I cast the one cleric spell that is was able to slot in my holy symbol (lesser inflict) a number of times, and did some damage with it, but never seemed to use up power. Alternatively, it might be that the (relatively minor) amount of power cost just wasn't very visible on the power bar (my cleric had power trained to the max Lvl 20)
|
|
Never got to use a spell, didn't find any and they all got used up by the looters typically it seems.
I'd VERY VERY VERY much like to see our Expendables being purchasable by some means (Probably not XP). I was having a discussion earlier about how you could acquire a token or achievement every time you fulfill a level in any given Role. You could let PC exchange these very limited valuables for things like recipies, spells, manuvers etc so that having a level 6 Character with nothing more than terrible basic attacks isn't something that happens. (Bows excluded)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Not sure how to play with others.
Given alpha excelleration, character had a lot of skills.
Wandereed to extremem west, using stealth to get past a horde in escalation. Picking fights lead to some winds and eventually a battle focus drop. After that I could slot orisons, but still no armor; Still for 4 hours it was exciting and I look forward to working with other players.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
1 - It is there with enough of a variety for MVP, and I must say I really like the substitution mechanic. Never saw any armor, short bows or spells drop.
2 - I was able to make basic weapons and armor pretty early. The armor wasn't the right type for the feat I wanted to use, so I just trained a couple ranks for one of the feats it did work for to get some benefit from it. I think once the drops are fixed and auction houses are implemented everything would be ready there.
3 - Early on there was a lot of trading weapons to players who hadn't had them drop yet, later on I don't know how common trading crafted gear was. It will be easier to tell when auction houses are added.
4 - Not really implemented. Was killed once, and when I ran back to the group that killed me they didn't try to do it again.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do not think the core game loop as described in the OP will be enough to make the game Viable. Viable to me, is players paying for an extra month after the initial purchase.
I think we need proto-settlements and marketplaces (planned for alpha 8, yay!) so that people can truly start to attach themselves to a patch of land, and start accumulating wealth for their settlement even if there's only a single shack standing there.
I feel that we are very close to these things, so I would say it is almost MVP. Certainly needs tweaks and improvements on the UI-side of things though (Tooltips, Targeting).
CEO
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
1. Killing Monsters: Yes it is there, but the variety is not. Bandits, Ogres, Goblins, Wolves and Skeletons and that is it.
Actually, there is a bit more. I just don't think that they are in the escalation cycles that are playing right now. You missed goblin dogs. There is also Razmiran and Ustalavian escalation cycles that have been live at some points during Alpha, but not right now.
Btw, there are also some high level wolf-type monsters that have been built, but I haven't seen them yet in the game, including worgs, winter wolves, and even hell hounds! Trust, me, the first time you see a burning black dog bearing down on you, it will scare the heck out of you! Especially at night!
-Lisa
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think we need proto-settlements and marketplaces (planned for alpha 8, yay!) so that people can truly start to attach themselves to a patch of land, and start accumulating wealth for their settlement even if there's only a single shack standing there.
I feel that we are very close to these things, so I would say it is almost MVP. Certainly needs tweaks and improvements on the UI-side of things though (Tooltips, Targeting).
I definitely see where you are coming from here. Guess this is MVP + 1, given all the below stuff needs to run smooth and iron out more "stuff". Then we get this it becomes more about as you say sustaining interest.
Btw, there are also some high level wolf-type monsters that have been built, but I haven't seen them yet in the game, including worgs, winter wolves, and even hell hounds!
Music to my ears.
Feel like I'm more up to speed with where the game is now.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm note sure why you think that the crafting system can't support early adventuring / combat roles. There are recipes for all the gear in the game, those recipes require relatively easy to find resources, and the training for the processing and crafting Feats is readily available and cheap.
I had 40+ recipes including basics that my characters could not learn even though I had the prereqs. I was told this is a bug.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Am I the only one who's been able to learn any Spells? I have several I can't learn, but I did manage to learn 5.
I was able to learn Web on one character yesterday.
I think i ended the day with:-Burning hands
-Force Missile
-Prismatic spray
-Fireball
-Strength
in my inventory, and we passed those around, at least 5 characters tried to learn them unsuccessfully.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
1. Killing Monsters: Yes it is there, but the variety is not. Bandits, Ogres, Goblins, Wolves and Skeletons and that is it.Actually, there is a bit more. I just don't think that they are in the escalation cycles that are playing right now. You missed goblin dogs. There is also Razmiran and Ustalavian escalation cycles that have been live at some points during Alpha, but not right now.
Btw, there are also some high level wolf-type monsters that have been built, but I haven't seen them yet in the game, including worgs, winter wolves, and even hell hounds! Trust, me, the first time you see a burning black dog bearing down on you, it will scare the heck out of you! Especially at night!
-Lisa
LOL
I think I did see goblin dogs.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Am I the only one who's been able to learn any Spells? I have several I can't learn, but I did manage to learn 5.I was able to learn Web on one character yesterday.
I think i ended the day with:
-Burning hands
-Force Missile
-Prismatic spray
-Fireball
-Strengthin my inventory, and we passed those around, at least 5 characters tried to learn them unsuccessfully.
Yeah, that web held me in place for several minutes. Even after I killed you I was still locked in place.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The drop rate for starter gear should be roughly equal for all 4 roles.
I'll have Stephen check to make sure that short swords and short bows have the same basic drop rate as long swords. You get a long bow if you complete the tutorial.
I've seen plenty of wizard and cleric spellcasting items drop so I think there's no problem with getting them from hunting monsters.
Not sure what the drop rate is for armor. Wizards don't get any meaningful benefit from +0 Tier 1 cloth armor so they don't really need it to drop.
I'm note sure why you think that the crafting system can't support early adventuring / combat roles. There are recipes for all the gear in the game, those recipes require relatively easy to find resources, and the training for the processing and crafting Feats is readily available and cheap.
Crating implements is a much more complex process but the only role that really likes implements right now are Wizards and between their staves and wands they have plenty of things to do before they get a spellbook. That said, with a cold start character I crafted a Holy Symbol purely from loot drops, resources I harvested, and skills I trained on one character. I'm sure the same could be done for the other roles' implements.
There's a known issue right now with the ink you need to make a spellbook but that's just a matter of adjusting a variable in the loot table. The same with the current absence of copper. Neither of those things are "missing", they're just incorrectly configured in the loot tables and that's easy to fix.
Havent heard of anyone getting a short bow drop. I was told that its at 0. By last night I had 10 Long Bows, 7 Short Swords, 8 Great Swords, 4 Long Swords, 6 Light Maces, 1 Pot Plate, and 1 Banded Mail (forget exact name). Also a large number of wands and staves but forget what type and how many.
Plenty of weapons for fighters, a weapon for Rogues, stuff for wizards, and a weapon for clerics. I know bludd found some light armor, but Armor drops were very rare.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Havent heard of anyone getting a short bow drop. I was told that its at 0. By last night I had 10 Long Bows, 7 Short Swords, 8 Great Swords, 4 Long Swords, 6 Light Maces, 1 Pot Plate, and 1 Banded Mail (forget exact name). Also a large number of wands and staves but forget what type and how many.
Plenty of weapons for fighters, a weapon for Rogues, stuff for wizards, and a weapon for clerics. I know bludd found some light...
I got dozens of weapons but all were basic. Light Mace, Dagger, Short Sword, Longsword, Greatsword, Wand, Staff, Longbow and battle Focus. No axes though, had to make my own +1 battleaxe to test axe fighting out.
Armor dropped. I got several light armor (ftootpad and a light chain thing) , some Pot plate (heavy), a couple of Medium (both cleric and normal and stacks of Runespun robes.
Only one type of shield - pine light but heaps of them.
Recipes galore and they only seemed to be broken if they dropped while I was in a party.
Spells I found - Force Missile, Burnng Hands and a Cleric Bless thing. They all worked.
The trick to drops ?? Higher level things seem to drop more good stuff and you need to kill good numbers. I hunted Ogre Brutes for half a day, later churned through the Hunters, Rabid Wolves and Wargs in the Wolf escalation with whirlwind attack and picked up heaps.
BTW there were Goblin Dogs, we killed heaps doing the skeketon expansion.
The amount of drops was not too bad but the variety a bit limited.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In alpha I tried a rogue long/short bow user, a wizard and a cleric. I gravitated more toward the bow user (without using the perma-sprint crutch) as it ended combat vastly more quickly and enabled me to explore.
1. Find monsters and take their stuff.
So yeah, this is in game but I found the reaction speed, animations and overall game responsiveness to be low/clunky. That's being nice. Combat wasn't much fun. I use a g13 gamepad with mouse turning for MMOs. It worked fine with the game. When I hit a button I'd like something to happen, given no latency issues. That being said I had no troubles and died once only due to lag, so the lack of responsiveness isn't a game breaker.
The drop rates were a little on the low side for what I wanted but high for what I didn't, but that's RNG for you. I had to make my first short bow which I don't mind.
The escalations I tried were solo so maybe the group experience is more fun, but these were pretty uninspiring. There's no farmer telling me the bandits stole his stuff so I pretty much know by osmosis what's going on in Sherwood Forest.
The leashing of groups of mobs is highly exploitable (they yo-yo back and forth) making the combat a lot easier. Taking out groups of six or seven solo with a bow was simple. I expect this will change with updated bow mechanics but you could do the same thing as a wizard or ranged cleric.
Tooltips, yeah I'm going to beat that dead horse. Deafening vs sickening critical. I can somewhat deduce what it is but who knows if I'm right or not.
2. Find resources and use resources to make stuff.
It's there. I'd like to see a greater variety of nodes honestly. Are we going to be able to chop down trees for wood eventually? Greater node variety (split up flowers and wood for example) and less material RNG would be nice but I do like that you can use more than one thing to make the crafted good sub-component. Finding things off PvE mobs is a nice touch as well. I will admit I could have tested this out more but I was more interested in playing around with the character and combat mechanics.
3. Stuff is good. Get better stuff and kill monsters harder.
I never really got better stuff. I crafted a t1 hunter's short bow. I killed things faster with the t0 mob dropped hunter's long bow. I liked the short bow play style better, however, so I stuck with it.
4. Kill another player and take their stuff.
More like kill someone that tries to kill me and take their stuff but obviously this isn't in game yet.
Overall opinion:
-Need companies and social mechanics.
-Optimize combat to make it fluid/responsive and fun
-Class balance but most important range vs melee balance
-Red wizard needs PvP badly. I'm fine with the reputation where it is but there needs to be something voluntary if you want people to play.
-Animations and combat/spell effects please!
All that being said I'm hoping for more alpha-ing so I can mess around with a heavily armored melee.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Another issue I have with training and "class" advancement....
As a Rogue I had at least four Armor Feats and Four Features to choose from, but training Swashbuckler and Cutthroat were the two that were required to rise in level as a Rogue.
I'm hoping that Build 8 changes this to requiring any of the Rogue Features, and any of the Rogue Armor Feats. I should not have to train Swashbuckler 10, but I'm using Scout as my Armor Feature.
I have a similar issue with requiring crafting skills to increase attributes. I don't have an issue with forcing to train gathering skills, because we are out in the world and passing by nodes is not a good idea. But, having to train Jewelry making is not something I have any interest in.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I had five cleric focuses drop, but no holy symbols. I had seven longbows and no shortbows. I had several greatswords and one each light mace, longsword, and shortsword. Five staffs and three wands dropped. I noticed no dropped spells whatsoever. I harvested a huge number of esoteric essences but few other types.
The thread of progression is there centering on the skeleton of character building. This will grow more involved when achievement gates are re-implemented. Further the progression of encumbrance will provide direction.
If the skeleton of the game incorporated the intrinsic need to socio-political interaction, then the sense of story (character, conflict, environment) will have the means to form a neural system. It may then come to life, develop a history, and project a future.