Long time player but I will admit I make some lousy builds. Mostly I go by concept and what I feel like doing. Well I love swashbucklers (Errol Flynn, Zorro), but I'm also a huge fan of gunslingers (Dark Tower, Man With No Name), and deciding between one or the other is messing with me. Now I know they got archetypes under both classes but again, the choice is difficult. I don't feel like having a crippled character again where I'm chugging behind the other players, so is multiclassing a Dhampire Mysterious Stranger & Picaroon as an even split through levels a terrible idea?
Advice and alternatives would be most welcome.
Since the swashbuckler is a hybrid of gunslinger and fighter, you can't multiclass swashbuckler with gunslinger. With that said, I would do it even if your DM allows it, since quite a few of their abilities seem to be redundant and you would likely fall behind the rest of your party.
I'm not a fan of mysterious stranger, Gun training is just so needed for a good gunslinger build IMO. Since Grit and Panache points have been confirmed to stack, even only getting one grit should be sufficient, if you have more panache. I'd probably take the pistolero archetype.
I would go straight slinger to 5, and then catch swashbuckler up. Otherwise I think its a legit build. Guns are so easy to hit with and once dex to damage is a thing do so much damage at worse your as strong as the other martials.
Now reloading though, that may be an issue:( I really can't see why they didn't build that into the class, seems like a no brainer.
Since the swashbuckler is a hybrid of gunslinger and fighter, you can't multiclass swashbuckler with gunslinger.
They changed that, you can now multiclass.
Well Mysterious Stranger was a choice because its Charisma based which tags along with the Swashbuckler. I'm not a huge fan of Mysterious Stranger myself but no other way to get Charisma for Grit is there?
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Multiclassing Swashbuckler and Gunslinger creates a single pool of Grit/Panache - and they never increase because of class. That's why, unless you really, really want later Deeds, Gunslinger and Swashbuckler are great for taking 1-level dips into.
I've built a character that's a Human lv7 Trench Fighter/Martial Master (Fighter Archetypes), lv3 Dune Drifter (Cavalier Archetype), lv1 Musketeer, and lv1 Pistolero. He's a melee fighter who spams Up Close & Deadly, uses Gun Twirling to reload as Free Actions, and Parries & Ripostes with his guns in a Gunkata-esque manner:
ORDER - Order of the Cockatrice
TRAITS - Black Powder Fortune, Black Powder Interjection
HUMAN - Quick Draw
CL1 Dune1 - Weapon Focus (Pistol), Amateur Gunslinger (Deadeye)
CL2 Dune2 - Dazzling Display
CL3 TrFt1 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Gun Twirling
CL4 Dune3 - Rapid Reload (Pistol)
CL5 Pist1 - Point-Blank Shot, Gunsmithing
CL6 TrFt2 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 TrFt3 - Rapid Shot, Trench Warfare (Pistol)
CL8 TrFt4 - Snap Shot
CL9 Musk1 - Dodge, Rapid Reload (Musket), Opportune Parry & Riposte, Derring-Do
CL10 TrFt5 - Martial Flexibility (either Combat Reflexes or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting)
CL11 TrFt6 - Mobility, Deft Shootist Deed
CL12 TrFt7 - Trench Warfare (Musket)
I really have little idea, however, if all of this is legal for PFS - I was just allowed to do this with a friend's game because the shear coolness/insanity of the idea.
Since the swashbuckler is a hybrid of gunslinger and fighter, you can't multiclass swashbuckler with gunslinger.They changed that, you can now multiclass.
I have read this several times but without a link. Is there a FAQ or a BLOG quote?
There's also a swashbuckler archetype who can use guns: the musketeer.
Since the swashbuckler is a hybrid of gunslinger and fighter, you can't multiclass swashbuckler with gunslinger.They changed that, you can now multiclass.I have read this several times but without a link. Is there a FAQ or a BLOG quote?
No, I don't need a link because I have this:
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
And while we're at it:
Grit and Panache The gunslinger’s grit and the swashbuckler’s panache represent two paths to gain access to the same heroic pool. Characters with both grit and panache class features combine the two resources together into a larger pool of both grit points and panache points.
For purposes of feat prerequisites, a character with the panache class feature satisfies the prerequisites as if she were a grit user, and vice versa. For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain panache points in place of grit points, and vice versa.
No, I don't need a link because I have this:
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).And while we're at it:
[b]Grit and Panache The gunslinger’s grit and the swashbuckler’s panache represent two paths to gain access to the same heroic pool. Characters with both grit and panache class features combine the two resources together into a larger pool of both grit points and panache points.
For purposes of feat prerequisites, a character with the panache class feature satisfies the prerequisites as if she were a grit user, and vice versa. For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain panache points in place of grit points, and vice versa.
First off I just want to say we are going to disagree.
Next: Page 8 says you can multiclass but it usually results in redundant abilities and Such abilities and such abilities don't stack unless specified. The Gunslinger and Swashbuckler can't stack because of redundant abilities (Nimble).Next: Page 56, though it says you can trade panache for grit, this in no way allows you to gain levels as a gunslinger.
No, I don't need a link because I have this:
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).And while we're at it:
[b]Grit and Panache The gunslinger’s grit and the swashbuckler’s panache represent two paths to gain access to the same heroic pool. Characters with both grit and panache class features combine the two resources together into a larger pool of both grit points and panache points.
For purposes of feat prerequisites, a character with the panache class feature satisfies the prerequisites as if she were a grit user, and vice versa. For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain panache points in place of grit points, and vice versa.First off I just want to say we are going to disagree.
Next: Page 8 says you can multiclass but it usually results in redundant abilities and Such abilities and such abilities don't stack unless specified. The Gunslinger and Swashbuckler can't stack because of redundant abilities (Nimble).Next: Page 56, though it says you can trade panache for grit, this in no way allows you to gain levels as a gunslinger.
I didn't say things worked perfectly, but you can certainly take both classes. Its says those abilities don't stack, not that the classes don't stack.
Slayers can take rogues, and SA doesn't stack, it overlaps, but all the other class features still function as normal.
Just the same, Gunslinger and swashbucklers can take them both, just some abilities are redundant. You are correct, they do not stack though, they overlap.
As for the grit panache thing, it very specifically say characters "WITH BOTH GRIT AND PANACHE CLASS FEATURES COMBINE THE TWO RESOURCES TOGETHER INTO A LARGER POOL OF BOTH GRIT AND PANACHE POINTS." Must have missed that part.
Also, there is a blog post where the devs stated this, pre-release. It is quite obviously the intention for it to work, although as you point out, often poorly.
Now the harsher RAW reading (which I always assume for PFS) means Mysterious Stranger changes nimble for Lucky, and Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger CANNOT take Swashbuckler levels.
Next: Page 56, though it says you can trade panache for grit, this in no way allows you to gain levels as a gunslinger.
Wut.
You most absolutely can gain levels as a Gunslinger. Simply HAVING Panache doesn't give you equivalent levels of Gunslinger, but you can take both Gunslinger and Swashbuckler.
The note from Page 8 mentions redundancies to advise players that just because you can multiclass doesn't mean it's a great idea. This is just reminding players that the game doesn't allow for identical abilities to stack unless those abilities say otherwise.
For instance, Rage and Bloodrage. Because both use a Morale Bonuses, they do not stack - so a Bloodrager who has levels in Barbarian, and who is Raging and Bloodraging simultaneously is basically just wasting the use of one classes' powers; it's basically useless to be both a Bloodrager and a Barbarian, then. Another example of the Monk and Sacred Fist: both gain Flurry of Blows, but because Sacred Fist doesn't specify that the Fist's levels stack with Monk Levels for determining your Flurry score, multiclassing in Monk and Sacred Fist is basically useless. Legal, but useless.
Page 56's ruling, however, says that Panache and Grit form a single pool of Points; this is similar to having both Ninja and Monk levels to determine Ki points. This ruling allows a Swashbuckler to spend Panache to pay for Deeds from the Gunslinger class, and vice-versa; it also allows the Swashbuckler to take the feat Extra Grit in order to gain more Grit; it also allows Swashbucklers to take Grit Feats like No Name without having to enter levels of Gunslinger.
I think they should make it so BAB, save modifiers, hit points, and any other class feature which another class gains access to doesn't stack with previously selected classes. Why not? They want to hamstring you any way you go, don't these qualify as "redundant" class features?
For the record, I made my previous statement as a regard to "redundant" class features which I feel, in every right, SHOULD stack. Is it really overpowered to allowing Sneak Attacks from multiple classes to stack together? No. It's a way of making multi-classed characters less appealing, thereby attempting to force players to stick with a single class if they want to be effective. What about the Nimble class feature which both the Gunslinger and Swashbuckler possess? How is it overpowered to allow these features to stack? A Swash 10/Slinger 10 combo gets a total +5 dodge bonus from Nimble... the same bonus as taking either of those classes to 20, individually.
Maybe this is a way of mitigating non-magic based characters? If you take a spell casting class and multi-class it with another class which gets the same casting type (spontaneous or prepared), close spell progression (1st through 9th level spells), and the same magic type (arcane or divine), you are hamstrung by their two spell advancements not stacking. A Wizard/Witch combo should, by most rights, stack... but they don't. Is this system a way of trying to do similar to the non-casters? If so, see my previous suggestion, and allow NOTHING to stack, simply taking the highest applicable bonus. Now you've set it up so that NOBODY will EVER multi-class... problem solved.
Seriously, allowing similar, even "redundant", class features to stack, so long as the bonus provided is of a kind which is allowed to stack (i.e. "untyped" bonus, dodge bonus, etc), or is one of a progression shared by any applicable classes possessed by the character (Sneak Attack, spontaneous divine casting, etc), I don't see how it's problematic to allow these things to stack. We allow BAB, Hit Dice, and Save modifiers to stack, and those are redundant features shared by all classes...
...Now the harsher RAW reading (which I always assume for PFS) means Mysterious Stranger changes nimble for Lucky, and Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger CANNOT take Swashbuckler levels.
Where did you get that idea???
Sleuth's Luck (Ex)
At 1st level, a sleuth gains a fluctuating pool of luck, measuring her ability to get out of scrapes. At the start of each day, a sleuth has a number of luck points equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). Her luck goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Charisma modifier (minimum 1), though feats, magic items, and spells that grant either grit or panache points can also grant a sleuth luck points equal to the amount of grit or panache they grant. A sleuth spends luck to accomplish deeds (see below), and regains luck in the following ways.
Rolling a Natural 20 on a Knowledge or Sense Motive Check: While on an investigation, a sleuth regains luck by uncovering secrets. Rolling a natural 20 on these skill checks while actively investigating causes the sleuth to regain 1 luck point. Such skill checks made for more mundane reasons (such as normal research or using Sense Motive to gain information during normal bargaining or while gambling) do not regain luck for the sleuth. Determining which skill checks qualify is up to the GM.
Rolling a 6 or Higher on an Inspiration Roll: When a sleuth rolls an inspiration die while on an investigation and the die comes up a 6 or higher, she regains 1 luck point. (If she rolls multiple inspiration dice at a time, she regains 1 luck point if the total is 6 or higher.) Like regaining luck via a natural 20 on a qualifying skill check, inspiration checks made for more mundane reasons don't qualify for regaining luck. The GM is the final arbitrator for what rolls qualify. It's possible for a investigator to regain 2 luck points on the same Skill check, if both the qualifying skill check is a natural 20 and any inspiration roll made is a 6 or higher.
This and the 1st-level deeds below replace alchemy. A sleuth cannot take the alchemist discovery talent or any investigator talent that affects alchemy.
Then there's this:
Grit (Ex)
A mysterious stranger is a force to be reckoned with. Instead of using her Wisdom to determine the number of grit points she gains at the start of each day, she uses Charisma. This ability works in all other ways like the Gunslinger’s grit class feature.
And then there's the fact that Paizo seems to make a plethora of grammatical/editorial errors, often overlooking certain aspects of previously printed materials. Don't you think it's possible this:
A luck user does not count as a grit or panache user to satisfy feat prerequisites.
...which can be found in a handful of places on www.d20pfsrd.com, most notably on the pages for the Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, and Sleuth Investigator Archetype, might have simply overlooked the fact the Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger Archetype uses Charisma instead of Wisdom for Grit?
Certainly, this would allow for the triple dip, should a character combine Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, and Sleuth Investigator, making for a healthy pool of points, but there's nothing illegal about it, by the rules. And nothing magically turns the Gunslinger's Grit into Luck by simply taking levels of Swashbuckler. Honestly, this three-way combo is actually smart, as it gives the most options for replenishing this pool!
Charisma 20 at level 1/1/1... 15 Grit/Luck/Panache! Why not be an Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, and get your Intelligence bonus, as well. Finagle a way to have an 18 or 20 INT, as well... you could pull a pool of 20 Grit/Luck/Panache by level 3! And with all the methods of recouping those points, this character should be spending 'em like they're goin' outta style! Hahaha!
...Now the harsher RAW reading (which I always assume for PFS) means Mysterious Stranger changes nimble for Lucky, and Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger CANNOT take Swashbuckler levels.Where did you get that idea???
** spoiler omitted **...
From this: If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
Now I don't read it that way, but I already know PFS GM's who have. Since you switched out nimble you can't take a class with nimble. Once again, harsh RAW reading, I think the archetype overwrites that (and its not exactly a decision like a bloodline is) but I see where they are reading it.
...Now the harsher RAW reading (which I always assume for PFS) means Mysterious Stranger changes nimble for Lucky, and Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger CANNOT take Swashbuckler levels.Where did you get that idea???
** spoiler omitted **...
From this: If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
Now I don't read it that way, but I already know PFS GM's who have. Since you switched out nimble you can't take a class with nimble. Once again, harsh RAW reading, I think the archetype overwrites that (and its not exactly a decision like a bloodline is) but I see where they are reading it.
Okay, so apparently my coffee hadn't kicked in yet. Duh! Hahaha! Somehow I missed the part where you referenced Nimble, and I thought you were talking about the Grit/Panache/Luck thing, turning Grit into Luck. My mistake... so sorry.
So, if you're going with the Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger's "Lucky" ability being a forfeit of the Swashbuckler's "Nimble" ability... do levels in Swashbuckler which would normally grant a dodge bonus to AC via "Nimble" instead grant an increase in the luck bonus to Will saving throws, ala "Lucky"? That's how I would interpret this ruling. Otherwise you're taking a class feature away, and replacing it with... NOTHING!
The way some GM's interpret it is that you can't take a class that switched that feature out. So, Since mysterious stranger switched out "Nimble" with "Lucky", it no longer eligible for swashbuckler.
But Pistolero and Musketeer, which don't change "Nimble", so you can take both of them and still take swashbuckler. They also do have this to work with: While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. to help them in their argument. So both classes get nimble, but they don't stack.
Its the very harshest reading of RAW, and it's not exactly what I believe RAI is, but they seem to have a strong argument. Hopefully its one of the many ACG clarifications they make in the first FAQ.