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If a tiny creature (Imp) 5' steps into a square occupied by a PC (Rogue), does it provoke an AoO?
I have two conflicting pieces of information from the Combat page, one of them must supersede the other.
1) Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
2) You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
From what I see, a 5' step is a specialized form of movement that overrules the basic rules of movement and does not provoke.
What's the correct ruling?
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Well, it's not so simple.
A 5ft step still doesn't provoke. But moving into a creatures square does provoke, and is the more specific rule for this case. It's not movement here that provokes. It's moving into a creatures square that provokes.
For a comparison, if a tiny creature had two enemies that it was adjacent to, and then made a 5ft into the adjacent creatures square it would only provoke once for entering the square. (Move from A into B)
If however, the tiny creature moved 10ft, supossing it wanted to move into the square of the non-adjacent enemy, it would provoke 2 attacks of opportunity. Once for moving out of threatened area and one for entering the creatures square. (Move from A into C)
Situation 1
OOOBCO
OOOAOO
Situation 2
OOOBCO
OOAOOO
They are two entirely separate rules and have little to do with one another.
Yup, I think Claxon is right. Taking the 5-foot step doesn't provoke, but moving into the opponent's square does provoke.
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If however, the tiny creature moved 10ft, supossing it wanted to move into the square of the non-adjacent enemy, it would provoke 2 attacks of opportunity. Once for moving out of threatened area and one for entering the creatures square.
Are you sure? It's still the movement that's provoking. I would think it would still be one AoO because it's the same movement action.
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The relevant texts here:
"Very Small Creature
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller
Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures."
Seems to me that Claxon is spot on UNLESS said imp had a special ability that negates this.
Are you sure? It's still the movement that's provoking. I would think it would still be one AoO because it's the same movement action.
If however, the tiny creature moved 10ft, supossing it wanted to move into the square of the non-adjacent enemy, it would provoke 2 attacks of opportunity. Once for moving out of threatened area and one for entering the creatures square.
Here's the relevant text:
if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Nothing in the rules says "one movement action can't provoke multiple attacks of opportunity". (For example, if you tried to Acrobatics through the square of an enemy with natural reach and failed your checks, you would provoke twice, once for moving out of a threatened square and once for failing to move through the opponent, even though it was on the same move action for you.)
Moving out of multiple threatened squares only provokes once, but moving into the opponent's square is a separate opportunity and would provoke again.
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Are you sure? It's still the movement that's provoking. I would think it would still be one AoO because it's the same movement action.
If however, the tiny creature moved 10ft, supossing it wanted to move into the square of the non-adjacent enemy, it would provoke 2 attacks of opportunity. Once for moving out of threatened area and one for entering the creatures square.Here's the relevant text:
if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.Nothing in the rules says "one movement action can't provoke multiple attacks of opportunity". (For example, if you tried to Acrobatics through the square of an enemy with natural reach and failed your checks, you would provoke twice, once for moving out of a threatened square and once for failing to move through the opponent, even though it was on the same move action for you.)
Moving out of multiple threatened squares only provokes once, but moving into the opponent's square is a separate opportunity and would provoke again.
I see your point, I don't think it'd be easy to convince a GM of this but I can see that it's supposed to work this way.
This is a bit spotty, as the two rules seem like they have the same level of specificity. Complicating matters is the extremely strong statement:
Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.
However, I'm inclined to rule with Claxon without a compelling reason otherwise.
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I think an easier explanation is to say that the same action doesn't provoke more than once. In this case they are two separate actions provoking (I am not using the word action in the sense of the game mechanic for actions). One is "moving from a threatened square" and the other is "moving into an opponents square".
This is a bit spotty, as the two rules seem like they have the same level of specificity. Complicating matters is the extremely strong statement:
Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.However, I'm inclined to rule with Claxon without a compelling reason otherwise.
Even though the rules state "taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity", there are clearly times when a 5-foot step does provoke. So it's not quite as strong of a statement as it might appear.
But for this purpose it's irrelevant - it's not the taking of the 5-foot step that is provoking, it's the moving into the opponent's square that provokes. Whereas, if you used a move action to get into the opponent's square, you would provoke twice.
This is a bit spotty, as the two rules seem like they have the same level of specificity. Complicating matters is the extremely strong statement:
Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.However, I'm inclined to rule with Claxon without a compelling reason otherwise.Even though the rules state "taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity", there are clearly times when a 5-foot step does provoke. So it's not quite as strong of a statement as it might appear.
But for this purpose it's irrelevant - it's not the taking of the 5-foot step that is provoking, it's the moving into the opponent's square that provokes. Whereas, if you used a move action to get into the opponent's square, you would provoke twice.
I had always understood that any given action can't provoke more than once but the rules don't appear to say that unless I am missing something. It only has the text about moving out of multiple squares.
I can honestly see GMs ruling either way on this but you have me convinced.
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The charge action doesn't provoke, if you happen to do something else while charging that provokes (leaving a threatened square) it still provokes.
The 5ft step action doesn't provoke, if you happen to do something else while stepping that provokes (moving into an enemy square) it still provokes.
The charge action doesn't provoke, if you happen to do something else while charging that provokes (leaving a threatened square) it still provokes.
The 5ft step action doesn't provoke, if you happen to do something else while stepping that provokes (moving into an enemy square) it still provokes.
Exactly this. That is about as clear as you can make it.
5 foot step isn't an action that doesn't usually provoke (like charging). It's an action that specifically states that it NEVER provokes. I'd need a 5-foot-step-specific override to trump that.
Lets try this a different way.
The 5ft step never provokes.
Entering into an opponents square does.
If you walked into an opponents square you would provoke twice. Once from leaving a threatened square, and once from entering an opponents square.
If you 5ft step into an opponents square, you only provoke once.
Lets try this a different way.
The 5ft step never provokes.
Entering into an opponents square does.If you walked into an opponents square you would provoke twice. Once from leaving a threatened square, and once from entering an opponents square.
If you 5ft step into an opponents square, you only provoke once.
No, because otherwise a 5-foot-step would never work. It would mean that a 5 foot step out of a threatened area wouldn't provoke, but moving out of the threatened area would provoke.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
5ft step explicitly avoids that AoO.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
5ft step explicitly avoids that AoO.
5ft step explicitly avoids all AoO. "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." For something to overwrite "never", it would need to explicitly state it works "even on a 5-foot step".
Ruling otherwise is overly burdensome on the tiny character, because the small+ character will always take a 5 foot step away on their turn to attack the tiny character, forcing the tiny character to draw an AoO every turn to 5 foot step back.
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Pathfinder defines 2 classes of actions that generate attacks of opportunity "Moving" which is defined as leaving a threatened square, and "Performing a distracting act" which has a whole punch of options such as casting a spell, drinking a potion, etc.
The 5 foot step prevents the attacks from one (movement) but not the other.
The question then is which category should this go in to. When the 'moving' category is first defined, it does explicitly say it is moving out of a threatened square. However, the entire section of big and little creatures and entering occupied squares is under movement, and it is certainly happening while and as a result of movement.
The distracting act is defined as certain actions performed in a threatened square. Clearly for potion drinking and stuff like that, this makes total sense. Moving into an occupied square isn't something really done 'in' a square though, like leaving a threatened square it is sort of done 'between' squares.
It is my conclusion that entering an occupied square is more like the 'Moving' category and that a 5' step would indeed negate the attack. I actually expected to think otherwise when I began looking at the specifics, and I'm still unsure if this would have unexpected or weird ramifications.