Bloodrager with Abyssal bloodline and Rageshaper archetype question.


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Given: A bloodrager with the Abyssal bloodline gets two claw attacks(su) at first level.

Questions:
1. does this meet the Beastial Aspect (su) requirement of gaining natural attacks from a polymorph spell?

2. if question 1 is true, at 4th level, would this then increase the claw damage from 1d6 to 1d8?

3. if question 1 is true, and the question 2 damage increase takes effect, would the claw damage then increase again to 2d6 if/when the bloodrager enlarges with the demonic bulk ability?

Thanks for any input. just trying to see if my interpretation is correct and planning my bloodrager abilities

r/

SoD

Silver Crusade

Check out the last part of Beastial Aspect.

Beastial Aspect wrote:
If the rageshaper's bloodrage powers already grant natural attacks or alternate modes of movement, then the bonuses granted by bestial aspect also apply to these bloodrage powers.

So yes, the claw attacks gained by Bloodraging gets increased to 1d8 at 4th level.

As to your last question: yes, it would go to 2d6 when enlarged. 1d8 medium weapons are 2d6 when large as given by Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage in the PRD.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, the combo of Abyssal and Rageshaper is exactly as cool as you suspect.

Liberty's Edge

thanks for the info. Not sure how I missed the last part of Beastial Aspect. of course it was a bit late after a long day when i was reading that part of things... lol Ascalaphus, glad you agree. it is a freaking cool combination that I will definitely have to utilize and figure out how to improve it ever so much more. Just have to find some games so i can get him up to level 4 to play with all this awesomeness...

r/

SoD


Did yall read the ability?

Quote:

At 4th level, whenever a rageshaper

gains a natural attack through the use of a polymorph
spell
, he can increase the damage done by that attack by
one die.

The Abyssal bloodline ability is not a spell. This combo does not work.

Sovereign Court

Hey, you might be on to something there :(


Gonna go ahead and...

Aziraya Zhwan wrote:

Check out the last part of Beastial Aspect.

Beastial Aspect wrote:
If the rageshaper's bloodrage powers already grant natural attacks or alternate modes of movement, then the bonuses granted by bestial aspect also apply to these bloodrage powers.

So yes, the claw attacks gained by Bloodraging gets increased to 1d8 at 4th level.

As to your last question: yes, it would go to 2d6 when enlarged. 1d8 medium weapons are 2d6 when large as given by Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage in the PRD.

It's even in this post.


Slacker2010 wrote:

Did yall read the ability?

Quote:

At 4th level, whenever a rageshaper

gains a natural attack through the use of a polymorph
spell
, he can increase the damage done by that attack by
one die.
The Abyssal bloodline ability is not a spell. This combo does not work.

Did you read the ability? Specifically the part already quoted above about natural attacks gained from bloodlines getting the bonus?

Sovereign Court

Oh, right, it's buried at the bottom:

Quote:
If the rage shaper's bloodrage powers already grant natural attacks or alternate modes ofmovement, then the bonuses granted by bestial aspect also apply to these bloodrage powers.

Liberty's Edge

I failed to read the entire block of text on the rageshaper abilities. Got to the "at 9th level" part and quit reading. If I'd kept going I would have seen the part on bloodrage powers granting natural attacks that answered my question.

Beyond that, just wanted to verify the enlarged size increase to damage. I figured if your non natural weapons increased in size and damage that your natural weapons would do the same.

R/

SoD


Well crap, see what I get for not reading all the way through. I fail.


Slacker...

Grand Lodge

And at level 8 you end up with 3d6 Claw Attacks. (1d8 for Medium up to 2d6 for Large from Demonic Bulk then up to 3d6 with the increase in die from Bestial Aspect.


Aziraya Zhwan wrote:

So yes, the claw attacks gained by Bloodraging gets increased to 1d8 at 4th level.

As to your last question: yes, it would go to 2d6 when enlarged. 1d8 medium weapons are 2d6 when large as given by Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage in the PRD.

First, according to RAW Bestial Aspect does not increase the damage die size, but adds one die (my emphasis):

Bestial Aspect wrote:
At 4th level, whenever a rageshaper gains a natural attack through the use of a polymorph spell, he can increase the damage done by that attack by one die.

Note that it does NOT say "die size", "by one step", "damage die type" or similar (like for example the Improved Natural Attack and most other PC options related to damage die).

In effect, the Abyssal Claws of a 4th level Rageshaper of medium size deal 2d6 damage, or 2d8 if the Bloodrager is of large size (through Demonic Bulk or whatever). Similarly, at 8th level the claw attacks deal 2d8 when medium, or 4d6 when large (the Abyssal Claw damage die of a large non-rageshaper is 2d6, so "increasing the damage by one die" adds another 2d6).

This may just be a typo in the quoted rules, but since it hasn't been called out by the Paizo devs as such (AFAIK), having Bestial Aspect increase damage die size by one step (as suggested by other posters here) would clearly be a houserule.

Second, doesn't a natural attack change damage die according to the Table: Natural Attacks by Size when its size changes (unless otherwise noted of course, as in the case of the Improved Natural Attack feat)?


For how rageshaper works at level 8... Since as written it increases by one -die-, not one step, size, etc. At 8 you would have 1d8 base that becomes 2d6 as large, then +1 die to make 3d6.

Or stacked the other way, 1d8 base +1 die for 2d8, then becomes 4d6 from size increase.(Assuming it advances as other 1d6 NA's not as a weapon)

So the two real questions are...
1. What is intended by "one die"?
2. In what order do these abilities stack onto each other?

And heaven forbid we try to add improved natural attack and figure that mess out...


So as for that "heaven forbid" part.... here's the work out of the possible stacking methods.

List is based on a lvl 8 bloodrager.
Size=lvl4 abyssal bonus, INA=Improved Natural Attack, RS=Rageshaper(assumed to be +1 die)

#1 Base:1d8>Size:2d6>INA:3d6>RS:4d6

#2 Base:1d8>Size:2d6>RS:3d6>INA:4d6

#3 Base:1d8>INA:2d6>Size:2d8>RS:3d8

#4 Base:1d8>INA:2d6>RS:3d6>Size:4d6

#5 Base:1d8>RS:2d8>Size:4d6>INA:6d6

#6 Base:1d8>RS:2d8>INA:3d8>Size:4d8
(this last one assumes d8 progression here happens like stated in INA for d10 type weapons)

So as we can see, in half the methods (1, 2, 4) INA does absolutely nothing. In methods 3 it actually brings your damage down (by only .5 on average, but taking a feat for less damage! Maybe you feel too powerful... here's you're out :p). Last but not least it's obvious that RS applying first gives us the best benefit, whether we have INA or not (without gives us 4d6 as large vs 3d6 if large applies first) INA also pushes our damage into the ridiculous category!

So cheers to those of you who have DM's that allow monster feats on PC's that qualify (make sure you stack your bonuses right!)

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