Goblin Squad Member
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So nobody wants to have any real enemies? I'm laughing. I suppose you don't want any settlement conquest either and you will all be NAP signers for that too. I was leaning towards peace but now that I am seeing where it is going ,it just looks dim as a view of what PFO should be like.
It's not gonna hurt that bad to fight over the towers, what got everyone so scared of it? The game is designed 'around' a healthy amount of PVP, don't be scared of it. How did a PVP dependent game come to be led by people who don't really want enemies, or to be an enemy to someone by choice.
Please ,some settlement say that they want to fight the war of towers!All out I mean ,so that there is glory for some and defeat for others. At least on the weekends , you can kill 10,000 bandits on weekdays.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given that the Settlement must accept a Tower being pledged to it, it should be pretty obvious who the transgressor is, and that it was not something done by a rogue agent.
My hope is that anyone who violates the Tower NAP will have all of their Towers taken from them for at least a day, and only returned if they reaffirm the NAP. A second transgression should not be forgiven.
Wow, that's actually more lenient than I would call for. I would likely not be for a second chance at all.
If that becomes apart of the agreement, sure. Otherwise I don't see a reason to trust an entity that can't control a whole company. A lone player problem here and there maybe deserves some leeway.
I'd lean towards Charlie on this. If a group goes rogue, that's one thing, but if a settlement accepts a rogue tower, they should have to pay a price to convince the rest that they're really sorry they did it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@notmyrealname:
1) I know there will be some non-tower taking fights, many have forum-grudges to 'act out', so there is some PVP to look forward to.
2) Remember 'Beta' is about building the game, not (just) playing it. EE is for making a world with a functioning economy and some higher tier goods and services than the start towns provide, so we kinda have to get along, at least until OE. We're only halfway through this crowdforging ride.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd be inclined to say that the NAP apply only to the "alpha 6" towers and the rest be, "have what you hold".
We do not know how quickly a settlement will be able to advance its training once WoT is over. Probably more than enough time before OE, to be well beyond the initial tier 2 stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@notmyrealname:
1) I know there will be some non-tower taking fights, many have forum-grudges to 'act out', so there is some PVP to look forward to.2) Remember 'Beta' is about building the game, not (just) playing it. EE is for making a world with a functioning economy and some higher tier goods and services than the start towns provide, so we kinda have to get along, at least until OE. We're only halfway through this crowdforging ride.
Well ,this whole NAP seems bad for own future ,so I was just warning of the pit falls of leaving the thousands who will join EE out of your plans. The increase in the numbers should not be seen as a bunch of serfs coming to PFO to join your NAP, it being a PVP game and all.
So much of this future is going to be about us losing control and not having a choice but learning to deal with what happens to us, so we could learn how to PVP as a settlement fighting a settlement, and have a chance to survive as a settlement when it gets to that point in the development.
I can't imagine a PFO (in the future )where you don't have enemies, that is an important part of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd be inclined to say that the NAP apply only to the "alpha 6" towers and the rest be, "have what you hold".
We do not know how quickly a settlement will be able to advance its training once WoT is over. Probably more than enough time before OE, to be well beyond the initial tier 2 stuff.
I disagree, the tower NAP brought to us includes ten towers. The EoX would rather not make a habit of seeming to agree with a diplomatic effort and then attempt to downgrade the scope.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@notmyrealname:
1) I know there will be some non-tower taking fights, many have forum-grudges to 'act out', so there is some PVP to look forward to.2) Remember 'Beta' is about building the game, not (just) playing it. EE is for making a world with a functioning economy and some higher tier goods and services than the start towns provide, so we kinda have to get along, at least until OE. We're only halfway through this crowdforging ride.
Well ,this whole NAP seems bad for own future ,so I was just warning of the pit falls of leaving the thousands who will join EE out of your plans. The increase in the numbers should not be seen as a bunch of serfs coming to PFO to join your NAP, it being a PVP game and all.
So much of this future is going to be about us losing control and not having a choice but learning to deal with what happens to us, so we could learn how to PVP as a settlement fighting a settlement, and have a chance to survive as a settlement when it gets to that point in the development.
I can't imagine a PFO (in the future )where you don't have enemies, that is an important part of the game.
I have been trying to get an ideascale idea worked out for getting PVP practice before siege. I think I have finally figured it out, with a little help from Being. It's War Games we need, to prepare for wars. Multi company feuds, in essence. Just submitted it here . Whether you hate or love it, if you comment on why you voted the way you did, we might get something we can use before EE.
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Ew, wait, what? People aren't gonna fight during the War of Towers? See what happens when I'm gone, guys?
The whole point of the War of Towers was to give people a way and reason to try out PvP before settlement PvP. Please tell me I'm misunderstanding something about this agreement. Blar.
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Tavernhold is soooo lucky I'm gonna be gone the first few months of EE... XD
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't worry too much, KC. If one of the current groups doesn't violate the NAP, I'm confident that someone who isn't reading this will. GW wants the population of EE to reach twenty thousand people before OE. The vast majority of those 20,000 people aren't here yet, and a good percentage of them won't care what we decided during Alpha.
Edit: We might not reach 20,000 during WoT, but if we don't start growing pretty fast during WoT, it will be hard to reach 20,000.
In which case the question will become, "Will there be enough dissenters to make up for the fact that the NAPpers may end up piling on them?"
We call 'em NAPpers because they're boring and they make us fall asleep with their boringness.
I wouldn't worry too much, KC. If one of the current groups doesn't violate the NAP, I'm confident that someone who isn't reading this will. GW wants the population of EE to reach twenty thousand people before OE. The vast majority of those 20,000 people aren't here yet, and a good percentage of them won't care what we decided during Alpha.
Edit: We might not reach 20,000 during WoT, but if we don't start growing pretty fast during WoT, it will be hard to reach 20,000.
Also, speaking as someone who's always been a bit skeptical that our Brave Little PFOaster can pull this off, who's to say that newcomers won't be put off by how quiet things are?
"I thought this was gonna be like EVE or Rust, or at least have some, like, wars. Almost the entire map is peaceful! Everyone's agreed to non-aggression pact!"
The primary audience of this game is gonna be people who like sandbox games, with an inevitable emphasis on PvP players*. I worry that trying to make the EE so unlike the finished product may hurt PFO in both the short- and long-run, no matter how easy it makes it for twenty-or-so grognard-populated settlements. ;D
*Yes, non-PvPers will exist, but most of them will be put off by the fact that PvP is pretty much inescapable no matter what role you take. There will be a mix, but people who like PvP will be in the majority. They may choose to play craftsmen, bandits, or gatherers, but they'll be alike in saying, "Yeah, PvP keeps things interesting!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would be cautious about thinking that everybody that has been in a discussion about a NAP will join it.
I would be equally cautious about assuming that everyone is negotiating in good faith. We know what alignment everyone says they want to be, but alignment won't actually reach the game for quite some time. It would be easy to claim lawful intentions right now, build strength during the early days of the NAP, then attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would be cautious about thinking that everybody that has been in a discussion about a NAP will join it.I would be equally cautious about assuming that everyone is negotiating in good faith. We know what alignment everyone says they want to be, but alignment won't actually reach the game for quite some time. It would be easy to claim lawful intentions right now, build strength during the early days of the NAP, then attack.
Then impose strong, meaningful consequence to breaking that faith. If you break the agreement your towers are forfeit.
Better to be honest now and lose some of your towers than dishonest and lose them all.
I would be cautious about thinking that everybody that has been in a discussion about a NAP will join it.Who do you think won't?
I've got my eye on that "Thod" guy.
He looks shifty.
This development doesn’t sound promising for those who were hoping to get plenty of meaningful PvP in the early phase of EE.
I’ve convinced a few players from my pvp focused guild to try PFO while they wait for Camelot Unchained to be released. We were aiming on joining in November, but it seems like we should wait for WoT to end now with all this napping.
Sorry for a slight derail, but I would be very grateful if someone could answer the following questions:
WoT is expected to last until approx six months after EE launch?
Brand new settlements can be created when WoT ends?
Any ETA on when they expect siege mechanics/settlement conquest to be implemented?
Thanks!
And thanks to Gurzaak for making this thread, very informative for those of us who are deciding on when to join the game based on PvP expectations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Social ramifications rarely roll uphill. The fingers will point at the settlement or block and fall from there.
<Fult nods> Warriors who want to point at settlements can join Fingers here!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Social ramifications rarely roll uphill. The fingers will point at the settlement or block and fall from there.<Fult nods> Warriors who want to point at settlements can join Fingers here!
I see what you did there
This development doesn’t sound promising for those who were hoping to get plenty of meaningful PvP in the early phase of EE.
I’ve convinced a few players from my pvp focused guild to try PFO while they wait for Camelot Unchained to be released. We were aiming on joining in November, but it seems like we should wait for WoT to end now with all this napping.
It's ridiculous.
The key is to keep the game between total chaos and buddying. It's already disheartening that everyone is grouping up on the forum before EE has even started, now everyone wants to make a pact? haha.
Let's make a tower taking group and just go around and take everyone's towers.
Dey shuda never gave yall towers.
This is gonna turn me into a bandit, man.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to mention a few things here....
6,300 people signed up for the first two months of EE, not 20,000. 20,000 is the OE goal, the OE map would have to be expanded if 100,000 is their goal, as it can only sustain around 77,000 people (that is 500 people per settlement).
Realistically, a lot of people bought into PFO just for the goodies, as they got 2-3x worth their backing. So, added to the fact a WHOLE lot of accounts are secondary/tertiary accounts of some people that 6,300 begins to shrink.
I think were going to start with far less than 6,300 people, probably half that many people. Which means that the currently landrush numbers will probably double.
The WoT NAP is being discussed for a two-fold purpose.
1 - People don't want to babysit a crap ton of towers against other major powerblock, since Towers won't have any lasting effect (other than some DI boosting) after they go away.
2 - To make sure everyone has a certain level of training to actually kick start the game. The economy will take a hit, if most of the towers are in the hands of only a few groups.
A good Third or more of the towers will still be open to PvP, and most people will want to try and get to 13 towers for the added benefit of crafting facility upgrades, and just to make basic Tier 2 gear. Those will be the towers most fought over.
Feuds will also have a major impact on the game, and even if you aren't taking towers, doesn't mean you can't declare a feud and come raid our towns.
I think what a lot of people have suggested is going to happen is we are going to be focused on actually getting out of the gate. Building a foundation for the future of our settlements, and attempting to kick start the economy.
Do you know what happens when you go balls to the walls with PvP starting from day one? You stunt your growth, as well as your targets growth, if you both get to a point where you can sustain short to long terms fights, then it means you won't screw each other over.
Furthermore, I think the leadership of all groups is looking towards the future, while we may be trying to have a stable start, we all know the hell that OE is going to bring upon the Riverkingdoms. Some are more in the know than others, but there is a realization that we will all have to deal with major influx of new people, we each have to be prepared.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to mention a few things here....
6,300 people signed up for the first two months of EE, not 20,000. 20,000 is the OE goal, the OE map would have to be expanded if 100,000 is their goal, as it can only sustain around 77,000 people (that is 500 people per settlement).
Realistically, a lot of people bought into PFO just for the goodies, as they got 2-3x worth their backing. So, added to the fact a WHOLE lot of accounts are secondary/tertiary accounts of some people that 6,300 begins to shrink.
I think were going to start with far less than 6,300 people, probably half that many people. Which means that the currently landrush numbers will probably double.
The WoT NAP is being discussed for a two-fold purpose.
1 - People don't want to babysit a crap ton of towers against other major powerblock, since Towers won't have any lasting effect (other than some DI boosting) after they go away.
2 - To make sure everyone has a certain level of training to actually kick start the game. The economy will take a hit, if most of the towers are in the hands of only a few groups.
A good Third or more of the towers will still be open to PvP, and most people will want to try and get to 13 towers for the added benefit of crafting facility upgrades, and just to make basic Tier 2 gear. Those will be the towers most fought over.
Feuds will also have a major impact on the game, and even if you aren't taking towers, doesn't mean you can't declare a feud and come raid our towns.
I think what a lot of people have suggested is going to happen is we are going to be focused on actually getting out of the gate. Building a foundation for the future of our settlements, and attempting to kick start the economy.
Do you know what happens when you go balls to the walls with PvP starting from day one? You stunt your growth, as well as your targets growth, if you both get to a point where you can sustain short to long terms fights, then it means you won't screw each other over.
Furthermore, I think...
If there was a way to like this twice, I would.
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Well, Liking it and then posting about Liking it tends to work well. ;P
Well, Liking it and then posting about Liking it tends to work well. ;P
omg so true
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you know what happens when you go balls to the walls with PvP starting from day one? You stunt your growth, as well as your targets growth, if you both get to a point where you can sustain short to long terms fights, then it means you won't screw each other over.
+1
I was on a MMO server a few years back where the clan/kingdoms were limited to 100 players and the competent players who were prepared to put in long hours gravitated to the best two which were engaged in an all out war for over a year. After a full year of logging in every few hours including setting alarms to get up at 3.00 am to check stuff or join a planned attack it got to the stage where both were overtaken and taken out by surrounding kingdoms of much more casual players who had been building up, incompetently, vast resources in the relative peace :D
I
2 - To make sure everyone has a certain level of training to actually kick start the game. The economy will take a hit, if most of the towers are in the hands of only a few groups.
This is the one I don't understand. So basically let everyone grow and then once the big companies (who have more people) get more training from their x amount of towers, they go in and take all of the other towers that weren't stunting the economy from the lesser.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I
2 - To make sure everyone has a certain level of training to actually kick start the game. The economy will take a hit, if most of the towers are in the hands of only a few groups.
This is the one I don't understand. So basically let everyone grow and then once the big companies (who have more people) get more training from their x amount of towers, they go in and take all of the other towers that weren't stunting the economy from the lesser.
No high level craft training meaning means we all have clubs unless we find NPC loot.
Which means the guaranteed forum whiners who will be pushing to be handed more gear by NPCs will get their way.
If that occurs you may as well play WoW or any of the million other MMOs out there where the gear is provided by grinding NPC quests.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I
2 - To make sure everyone has a certain level of training to actually kick start the game. The economy will take a hit, if most of the towers are in the hands of only a few groups.
This is the one I don't understand. So basically let everyone grow and then once the big companies (who have more people) get more training from their x amount of towers, they go in and take all of the other towers that weren't stunting the economy from the lesser.
There are social repercussions for doing that, breaking your word isn't looked upon favorably, and though you might be bigger then x. If everyone else bands together to stop you, they are certainly bigger then you.
heh breaking your word. I just mean when it's over. The pact will be over once the people who want training get it.
also at play WoW. I mean, I think it's cool to say what you guys are saying IF you gain to benefit the most from it. There is no downside. Let's all grow, but we are bigger so we will grow more.
I'd argue playing the game kick-started is more carebear than playing it as intended.
This is bad for the game, and something might need to be done about it. :)
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Speaking as a member of one of the Carebearier settlements, I'll be pretty disappointed if the NAP, in addition to existing, lasts for a set amount of time.
Better to just let it run and see who breaks first. Keeps things exciting! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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When towers go away, the largest groups are going to be in the same boat as the smallest groups....
There will be no towers, we have to start from scratch, and its going to take more than 30-50 people to run a Hex. You know what TEO will be doing? Even if we hit 400 people, were going to be stuck working the closest 8 hexes into PoIs(which take weeks to make) and outposts.
You will have 30 days to get your settlements built back to whatever level you had your training at, so I believe after towers go away, people will be scrambling to actually build their settlements.
Will there be PvP? You bet your ass their will be, over bulk resources and trade goods. Will it be the largest groups preying on the smaller? If we want to have any shred of a reputation, then no.
You also have to take into account something very important. The Citizen to PvP ratio. Some groups will have more than others, then you have a further breakdown into Aggressive PvPres, Defensive PvPers, and those that only PvP as a last resort.
I think there are a lot of factors that will sort themselves out once we finally get in game. Oh, and there won't be any companies for close to a month, nor towers, so most likely we will see 3-4 months of WoTs. PoIs and Settlements can't come out at the same time, so PoIs will come in right before settlements so they can be tested for a week or two.
My point:
The game has to progress more so that we have companies, towers, training, and an economy before we can sustain anything larger than party vs party PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest people expecting "the Sims with fantasy dress-ups combined with Farm Town", the people expecting EVE style "we encourage ganking and bullies and we call it player generated content" and the people expecting WoW style PvE instance grinding are ALL going to be disappointed.
Moral of the Story. Its a new breed of beastie, forget previous games.
If you have no expectations you cannot be disappointed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Speaking as a member of one of the Carebearier settlements, I'll be pretty disappointed if the NAP, in addition to existing, lasts for a set amount of time.
Better to just let it run and see who breaks first. Keeps things exciting! :)
Among the carebearier? Don't Loincloth Wednesdays count as anti-sanity PVP?
Come to think of it, we'll actually get to hold a Loincloth Wednesday during Alpha 8!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The key is to keep the game between total chaos and buddying.
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what this is intended to do.
The game is not about PvP, it is about meaningful choices. PvP is one of the primary means to dealing with those choices. Negotiating an uneasy peace is a form of PvP. If 20,000 people turn up in October and 15,000 are disappointed that there isn't enough fighting, I'm not convinced Lisa and Ryan will see that as a failure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about you people delay the NAP until 3 weeks after the tower war starts, maybe it will be ...fun?! Give it a chance before you try to shut it down. You don't know for sure what will make PFO a 'great ' mmo . Game systems should be tried out to their full potential.
When settlement warfare is put in are you going to refuse to test that out fully too, because you only care about your own (characters) behinds. Lets test the game as it was designed to be played.
We all know the game is far from a finished product, but putting your own advancement ahead of fully testing what we can do in the game is shortsighted for the future of PFO's development,(lose a war ,it's good for the game).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why are some people so concerned what other people are doing? If there are roughly 1/3 towers still available to fight over, that is many. Besides, any settlement that doesn't sign is not obligated to anything.
Not every settlement will be signing this thing, though I don't see many downsides. Early growth is vital growth.
Your feet have the final say if your leadership does something you are too opposed to.
