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Shaken, because the demoralize condition of intimidate does not stack with any other fear effects.
"Demoralize
You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier."
Of course you could use dirty trick to give shaken, then cause fear to give frightened, or 2 simultaneous fear spells at the same time to give 1 round fear no save...or whatever mix and match suits your fancy.
Or just get a 4th lv rogue with thug and scout archtypes with enforcer and charge em with a sap to give frightened.
Back then before they changed the dirge of doom bard ability not to stack (you now need improved dirge of doom now in order to do this), I started dirge as move action, standard casted fear - caused 1 round no saves frightened :P
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So, it doesn't matter what the order of operations?
You'd want to demoralize first, so the target gets the -2 to saves on the Cause Fear (making it more likely the spell will work!).
But in terms of the "shaken" condition, no, it does not matter which comes first. If you Cause Fear and they make the Will save, thus becoming shaken, then you demoralize them, they are still shaken. And if you demoralize them first, causing them to be shaken, then cast Cause Fear and they make their Will save, they are again still only shaken.
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Strange, I can't find the rule you quote Just a Mort.
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
You just can't increase the fear level with another demoralization, that's all.
I just checked out the definition gave by Just a Mort, it's the definition from d20pfsrd. I don't even find where this description come from. Errata files from the CRB doesn't mention that, it's seems to be just plain wrong.
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This is a cluster-bleep due to what appears to be Paizo forgetting they added errata in one CRB update and then never adding it in subsequent updates. This issue keeps coming up. In short, we don't just make this stuff up.
"Pathfinder RPG - Core Rulebook First Print Errata 1_2.pdf" included this entry:
"Page 99—In the Intimidate skill, add the following sentence after the first sentence of the Demoralize paragraph: This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened."
So, as a result, the editors of d20pfsrd.com did as instructed.
This sentence was still present in "Pathfinder RPG - Core Rulebook Second Print Errata 2_1.pdf" but NOT present in "Pathfinder RPG - Core Rulebook Third Print Errata 3_0.pdf", presumably because the text in the CRB (and PRD) had been updated so updating from the 2nd to 3rd printing would not need to change the text since theoretically the 2nd printing now includes the additional text. If that is the case, then the PRD should have been updated at the same time with the new additional sentence, however either it was, and the text was subsequently removed, or it was never updated.
Note that no CRB errata document directed REMOVAL of this new text, therefore, it should still be there. The presumption is that the fact that it is missing is an error not intentional, most especially given the developer statements expressly discussing the subject.
Intimidate (10/8/09)
Q: What is the difference between the Dazzling Display feat and using the Demoralize Opponent of the Intimidate Skill? It seems both affect all opponents within 30'. Is Intimidate supposed to be worded to affect only one?
A: (Joshua J. Frost) The intimidate skill says "If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. " which means its affecting a single target. Where the Dazzling Display feat is affecting ALL targets with 30 ft. (SOURCE)
Q: (10/8/09) Can you demoralize the same being more than once, and have the effects stack?
A: (Joshua J. Frost) The shaken condition gained in this matter cannot be stacked to create a stronger condition. If you succeed at another demoralize attempt, you just extend the shaken condition's duration. There was a sentence left out of the skill description that will be noted in a future errata update. (SOURCE)
A: (Jason Bulmahn) This is indeed the case. (SOURCE)
Q: (10/8/09) Does the above mean a Shaken condition imposed by a Intimidate Skill - Demoralise can never be upgraded by another use Source of a Fear condition?
A: (Joshua J. Frost) Correct. Though, as noted above, it can extend the duration of the shaken condition. (SOURCE)
Q: (10/8/09) Does this idea that Shaken + Shaken only increases the duration of the Shaken condition come into effect only when Demoralise is in the mix?
A: (Joshua J. Frost) Yes. (SOURCE)
In summary, it is our position that either the PRD and latest printing of the CRB need to be corrected to include the sentence, OR an errata document needs to be issued directing removal of the text, so that there is a record of it's addition, then later subtraction. Ideally there would also be some developer discussion regarding WHY it was added then later removed but at this time d20pfsrd.com retains the original sentence because we feel it's removal is an error and not intentional.
This is a cluster-bleep due to what appears to be Paizo forgetting they added errata in one CRB update and then never adding it in subsequent updates. This issue keeps coming up. In short, we don't just make this stuff up.
"Pathfinder RPG - Core Rulebook First Print Errata 1_2.pdf" included this entry:
Thanks for that!
Now, if only the Paizo writers were capable of writing what they were saying...the missing bit from Demoralize only prohibits demoralize-shaken from stacking with other shaken conditions, not with the frightened condition from another source.
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I think I got caught by the same thing the d20pfsrd.com guy did. I could swear the language he quoted was in there, but I just checked my PDF of the Core Rulebook (which is up to date to the latest version) and it doesn't have the remembered language. Specifically, my corebook says:
"Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to
become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check
is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom
modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for
1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by
which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent
in this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear
you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the
duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition."
Which matches the PRD.
I've no opinion on whether the missing language is an error or intentional.
Assuming the language is correct, you could give someone shaken by demoralizing them, then use Cause Fear to increase their fear.
That is incredibly informative.
I hope this explanation is sufficient for most PFS judges.
You're thinking about it all wrong ;-) "What's to stop me from making a fear-stacker? I'll bring my 6th printing core book and challenge them to find a way to stop me!"
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That is incredibly informative.
I hope this explanation is sufficient for most PFS judges.
You're thinking about it all wrong ;-) "What's to stop me from making a fear-stacker? I'll bring my 6th printing core book and challenge them to find a way to stop me!"
That's is sort of the opposite of what I had hoped to discover.
Hmmm, it seems that errata was given up, because from the one available here, there is no more trace about it.
It appears it was changed later to just stop 2 demoralization effects to stacks (this statement would be utterly stupid if absolutely nothing could stack with demoralization).
So yeah, I think you can totally make fear-stacking build.
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If I were you in PFS I would not allow it to work. PFS is twitchy about rules and stuff..if people take improved dirge of doom or use other means of fear stacking other then demoralize, then yes, it stacks to change shaken into frightened.
But the words under Demoralize, "You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.", indicate doesn't stack means doesn't stack. To me, its perfectly clear.
If you're doing it as a PC, even more should you follow the rules or get a PFS GM slap the ban book on you.
If you're not confident about just saying no when running a society table, keep in mind that Second Print Errata 2_1.pdf is still the rules of the game.
I'll FAQ it, but I think the answer is clear. I will repeat it, there would be no point making a "demoralization doesn't stack with another demoralization" rule if you couldn't stack anything with a demoralization in the first place.
New editions of the CRB doesn't have it mentioned, and the only relevant errata text IMHO is the errata 1.4 from the CRB page, covering from first to sixth edition.
Fear effect are powerful... Against certain types of enemies, and lots of meanings are caped to a HD restriction, are mind-affecting, got save, and stuff.
Outside of PFS, I think it's a suboptimal strategy because once the enemy has run away, he knows your trick, and can easily find solutions.
I don't now a lot about PFS and its scenarios, but in a AP/module, it's probably about what type of enemies are the most encountered, but it won't surprise me that clerics usually have remove fear, or people have potions of that spell.
Turns out there is a fully legal way to do it. Disheartening Display
Yeah, but the way that works is foggy, at best. The duration of the increased effect is never specified-- for example, is the target frightened for the full duration that they would have been shaken?
If I use Dazzling Display over and over again so the target is shaken for 20 rounds and then choose to use Disheartening Display's effect, is the target frightened for 1 round or 20?