Goblin Squad Member
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Hi Nari,
the way it looks to me, there are "3 main parts" to a character:
-weapon and attack feat
-armor and armor feat
-expendables and class feature feat
In addition there is utilities, saves, hitpoints/power, skills, crafting etc etc.
Of the "main 3" you can slot only one at a time, but you can combine different roles.
- You can, for example, slot fighter armor feat, fighter attack feat (weapon specialization) and cleric expendables (spells). You need to keep up with both martial achievements and divine achievements, and you will need to train the full 'class levels' to unlock some skills, so you will lag behind, but you can do it.
- The worn equipment must match the slotted feat. Axe specialization and holy symbol is an obvious mismatch, but armors also need to be keyword-matched as far as possible.
- Weapon swapping... as far as i know (help please?), switching weapon switches attacks but not attack feat. You could have focus weapon and axe, but your orisons would not be very powerful if you have axe specialization slotted. No idea how shields work.
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- I cant learn feats and skills from different roles
Incorrect. You can. I´m a Fighter 7/Rogue 6 and still able to learn the mage/cleric ways if I want/have the XP to do it.
- I can be that dwarf cleric who swings an axe, but whith consequences :
- as the axe is not a focus weapon, I can't cast orisons when axe swinging, I need to swap weapons (or dual-wield, but I would like to go for a shield in off-hand)
- but I can still use holy symbol expendables while axing
Partially correct. Swaping weapons to focci changes energy-attacks and change the class item (rogue kit, fighter trophy, holy simbol?, etc...) The others feats remain the same, and probably won't be able to change in combat (that will be defensive feats, domains/weapons specialization - who share same slot, so only one - reactive feats) in EE.
So you will need 2 holy simbols to have cleric expandables in both set of weapons.
- in the holy symbol expendables feat advancements, there is some divine=X notations, is this some divine achievement prequisite ? the one you get by killing stuff with this focus weapon I don't use ?
Correct.
is it viable ? or will this end in a squishy caracter ? and what about all other multi-role caracters ?
That's the one to be discovered yet. But by my own empirical opinion, in terms of powerbuild and min-max, I guess focused class character will overpower multiclass character because sinergy between feats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I found switching weapons to be no big deal, unless there was a penalty I didn't perceive. I wanted to work on my focus-weapon achievement (one needs to deliver the killing blow with the weapon one wants to advance), but it didn't do much damage, so I bashed the monster for a while with my club, then switched and finished it with the focus; switching weapons is only one keystroke, so it seems intentional that we can switch in combat.
I also believe the devs will carefully balance single- and multi-role builds so neither is the only "right" way to go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A note about Cleric Expendables. They require you to equip a Holy Symbol, however a Holy Symbol is an Off Hand item, so if you are wielding a 1 handed axe you should be able to put the Holy Symbol in your Off Hand and make use of the Cleric Expendables. This does mean you can't stick a shield in that hand though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I leveled as a cleric and a rogue in Alpha 7.1, with a battle focus in one set of hotkeys, and a bow in the other. I used stealth to sneak around and gather crafting materials, used the bow to pull enemies to me, and killed some of them with the battle focus.
I'd say that playing a multi-role character is working just fine so far.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm actually finding it hard to resist the temptation to take levels in all the roles. Everything you gather, scrounge and plunder is useful if you're a Swiss army knife character.I have that temptation as well. if it will take over 2 years to max out a class, and after 6 months to a year you start seeing diminishing returns, why not become a jack of all trades.
This is the thing, and it was/is a major problem in the pen and paper games. Why do I go 100% one class instead of multiclassing? generally multiclassing provided more bang for your buck than staying in one path. things like capstone ablities were added into encourage people to stay in a single class, but for the most part they came so late and they were underpowered (for example picking up rogue levels for evasion.....).
At least thus far, I dont think that the dedication bonuses are in, so if the dedication bonus for training that last 10-15% get really big, that will encourage people to train in one role rather than two, at least until they master that role and start on another.
So if your diminishing returns hits around the 6 month mark, thats when the dedication bonuses need to really start kicking in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Remember also that dedication bonuses are going to reflect what you slot, not what you know, so you can still be a Cleric in the morning, and a Rogue in the evening, if you choose to've spent your XP that way.
In other words, a mullet character--business up front, party in the back!
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is the "off hand" for shield or other light weapon. Then there is the second set for like switching to implements or say bow, right?
Right. Both sets of weapon hotkeys also have a row of implement hotkeys above them for expendables. Since they currently switch together, in order to use both sets of weapons with expendables, you need two implements.
Right now, the green tab in between primary and secondary attacks and the green circle to the right of the implement hotkeys both switch from one set to the other. The Devs have mentioned, though, that those two buttons will do different things later. Maybe the green button will continue to switch between weapon sets, but the button between the primary and secondary attacks will switch between three different rows of expendables, keyed to a single implement that stays active regardless of which weapon set you're using.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Remember also that dedication bonuses are going to reflect what you slot, not what you know, so you can still be a Cleric in the morning, and a Rogue in the evening, if you choose to've spent your XP that way.
And i think that dedication bonus should be linked to how deep into the class tree you are, not the level of ability that you slot.
So even if you only use say level 5 abilities, if you bought up to level 20, then you should get level 20 dedication bonus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Battle Cleric is not really multi-character.
A Dwarven Crusader Cleric is well on the way to being a battle Cleric.
As far as melee combat goes I found Touch of Darkness as good or better than the Mace in most situations. the exception was critters immune to negative energy like skeletons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is the "off hand" for shield or other light weapon. Then there is the second set for like switching to implements or say bow, right?
Yes. Your implement changes with weapons so you can equip a trophy with the bashing and a holy symbol with the battle focus and divine feats, etc.
Theoretically you could have a spellbook and thief kit equipped up there if you were trained for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So even if you only use say level 5 abilities, if you bought up to level 20, then you should get level 20 dedication bonus.
I've seen nothing to make us think this won't be how it works. Slotting only "Cleric" and "General" Feats is the described requirement to manifest the dedication bonus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is the "off hand" for shield or other light weapon. Then there is the second set for like switching to implements or say bow, right?Yes. Your implement changes with weapons so you can equip a trophy with the bashing and a holy symbol with the battle focus and divine feats, etc.
Theoretically you could have a spellbook and thief kit equipped up there if you were trained for them.
If I recall correctly, you'll only ever be able to have one implement slotted at a time. You can multi-class in terms of leveling up in more than one role, and you can equip a weapon that doesn't match your implement (ex: rogue kit and long bow), but I don't think you'll be able to swap between a rogue kit and a wizard's spellbook during combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being multiclass worked rather well for my character over the weekend, but realize that the influx of xp piled up at an unnatural rate so I felt no need to be frugal about it.
Since we started with only a club and cloth armor I immediately trained up my combat skills for those assets and went out to try and find armor and a better weapon or two. Then I trained to those. I also trained gathering skills and librarian skills to enhance my gathering yield.
I ended with the ability to play a rogue role, a cleric role and a fighter role. Character was effective, but part of that was thanks to the efficacy of the longbow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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so, "implements items" like holy symbol/spellbook/trophies(I don't know how to call them) are off-hand items ?
I don't found any informations on shields in fight ? are they of any use ?
I wouldn't call them offhand. I can use two shorts word or a two handed weapon and an implement or whatnot
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Goblin Squad Member
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so, "implements items" like holy symbol/spellbook/trophies(I don't know how to call them) are off-hand items ?
I don't found any informations on shields in fight ? are they of any use ?
A battle focus is a two-hand weapon. A holy symbol is an implement.
A wand is a one-hand(?) weapon. A spellbook is an implement.
They're two separate slots. Orisons are activated by a focus. Cleric spells (when they exist) will be activated by a holy symbol.
Cantrips are cast through a wand or staff. Wizard spells will be cast through a spellbook.
Edit: Yes, you can slot an axe, a shield and a holy symbol. That will let you attack and cast full-blown spells. However, if you want to cast orisons, you'll have to switch to your alternate set of a focus and a holy symbol.
I'm definitely interested to see how much better a 2nd or 3rd level spell will be than the orisons and cantrips we've been casting so far.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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it looks like I wasn't very clear
I tought there is 3 slots "in wich I can equip items" (I miss the right word) :
- main hand (I was planning axe here)
- off hand (I was planning shield here)
- implement (I was planning holy symbol here)
Partially correct: you also have secondary main hand, secondary off-hand, and secondary implement slots, which you can switch between we a short delay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Partially correct: you also have secondary main hand, secondary off-hand, and secondary implement slots, which you can switch between we a short delay.it looks like I wasn't very clear
I tought there is 3 slots "in wich I can equip items" (I miss the right word) :
- main hand (I was planning axe here)
- off hand (I was planning shield here)
- implement (I was planning holy symbol here)
I believe that there won't be a secondary implement slot once consumables go live. At that time, switching weapon sets will still be a one-click fast action, but switching implements will be an out-of-combat-only action that requires opening the paperdoll screen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe that there won't be a secondary implement slot once consumables go live. At that time, switching weapon sets will still be a one-click fast action, but switching implements will be an out-of-combat-only action that requires opening the paperdoll screen.
What makes you believe that?
You switch Weapon Sets by hitting ` (back-quote, often referred to as tilde for the other symbol on that key). Right now, switching Weapon Sets also switches Implements, but that wasn't the designers' intention. Instead, they've talked about using Alt-` to switch Implements entirely separately from switching Weapon Sets. It seems that they definitely intend for us to be able to switch Implements, even in combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe that there won't be a secondary implement slot once consumables go live. At that time, switching weapon sets will still be a one-click fast action, but switching implements will be an out-of-combat-only action that requires opening the paperdoll screen.
I've never heard anything from developers about anything close to that scenario. If they were planning for implements to be an out of combat paper doll switch (like armor) why would they put two implement spaces on the paper doll each corresponding to a weapon set?
Which reminds me to make a post about keeping items equipped if that spot in the other set is empty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Battle Cleric is not really multi-character.
A Dwarven Crusader Cleric is well on the way to being a battle Cleric.
As far as melee combat goes I found Touch of Darkness as good or better than the Mace in most situations. the exception was critters immune to negative energy like skeletons.
I forget its name, but I loved the Bleed orison. If you can tank for a little while, a fat stack of bleed effects does a nice job killing things
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Goblin Squad Member
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I forget its name, but I loved the Bleed orison. If you can tank for a little while, a fat stack of bleed effects does a nice job killing thingsBattle Cleric is not really multi-character.
A Dwarven Crusader Cleric is well on the way to being a battle Cleric.
As far as melee combat goes I found Touch of Darkness as good or better than the Mace in most situations. the exception was critters immune to negative energy like skeletons.
I will try that.
The other thing that took me ages to realise is that Crusader buffs weapon attack bonuses but Evangelist buffs your divine attack bonus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I forget its name, but I loved the Bleed orison. If you can tank for a little while, a fat stack of bleed effects does a nice job killing thingsBattle Cleric is not really multi-character.
A Dwarven Crusader Cleric is well on the way to being a battle Cleric.
As far as melee combat goes I found Touch of Darkness as good or better than the Mace in most situations. the exception was critters immune to negative energy like skeletons.
I will try that.
The other thing that took me ages to realise is that Crusader buffs weapon attack bonuses but Evangelist buffs your divine attack bonus.
I never realized that. Thanks for the heads-up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Evangelist versus Crusader
You will notice Evangelist is also better for ranged attacks. The Wiki has not implemented the higher levels yet however basically the attack bonus buffs are "effects" and hence ramp up with level of Crusader or Evangelist (rather than by Keyword match like you get with HP boost) .
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Goblin Squad Member
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You switch Weapon Sets by hitting ` (back-quote, often referred to as tilde for the other symbol on that key).
Apparently I am out-of-the-loop, or my understanding comes from prehistory (as may be). I have always called the symbol also known as the circumflex ( ~ ) the tilde. The symbol ( ` ) I thought was called the 'grave' (pronounced 'grahv').
~~edit~~ I see now you were saying that the back-quote is often mistakenly called the tilde.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The circumflex is actually this symbol: ^
The symbol ~ is called tilde when used above a letter or (informally?) swung dash when used in midline in place of a regular dash.
The accents ´ and ` are called acute and grave, respectively.
Just my diacritical smart-assy 2cp :-).
Note that these symbols are on entirely different keys on my non-english keyboard, so refering to pressing ` as "pressing the tilde key" would have me completely confused, as these two diacritical marks are on two seperate keys here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@albadeon The usage in English is by no means as univocal as it is in French. Circumflex can be either ^ or ~ . There is a third symbol referenced as well, but I haven't a ready example in my character-set. That symbol appears to represent an accent which begins and ends with a higher pitch, but lowers slightly in the interval.
Such a wonderful forum that such issues as this may be discussed civilly, without incurring apparent social penalties.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will bow to your superior smart-assyness :-). A quick web search seems to confirm the rare use of ~ as circumflex, though only in pre-modern greek script ;-).
But seriously, your knowledge of this is problably waaay better than mine, I was mostly trying to convey
refering to pressing ` as "pressing the tilde key" would have me completely confused, as these two diacritical marks are on two seperate keys (on my non-english keyboard)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@albadeon The usage in English is by no means as univocal as it is in French. Circumflex can be either ^ or ~ . There is a third symbol referenced as well, but I haven't a ready example in my character-set. That symbol appears to represent an accent which begins and ends with a higher pitch, but lowers slightly in the interval.
Such a wonderful forum that such issues as this may be discussed civilly, without incurring apparent social penalties.
In Australia they are all referred to as "that foriegn squiggly stuff" .
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Goblin Squad Member
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TLDR: More people in North America will know what you mean if you reference the tilde key than if you reference any other possibility.
At partial issue is that we are generally optimized to identify digits, so most of the keys on the top row are readily identified by the digit present. That one key, on American keyboards, has a shifted symbol that is far more quickly identified than the tiny un-shifted symbol beneath it. At a quick glance, the key is much more readily identified by the tilde than by the mark that different people call different things*.
* Many people who have no experience with accented characters are much more likely to refer to it as backwards apostrophe than grave, leading to confusion. Only a small number of people call the tilde anything else (and for most of them, it's either "the approximately equal symbol" or "the weird squiggly thing"
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Goblin Squad Member
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The original comment was "You switch Weapon Sets by hitting ` (back-quote, often referred to as tilde for the other symbol on that key".
Nihimon wasn't calling an accent grave a tilde, he was calling a tilde a tilde.
Calling that key the tilde is by far the most common usage in gaming circles, even though the tilde is the shifted character on that key.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Together sparks grow brilliant, competing they dim. Let us each shine where we can.
Or I might provide some dry hay for the blaze :-).
Anyway, I have learned to watch for the term "tilde key" and that it refers to the key to the left of the number 1 on the keyboard (which has the ^ and ° characters on my keyboard). Also, when looking for that on a key map, it will likely be the ` character that will be listed in instead.
Thanks for your patience with them weird foreigners :-).