Can we pick a position and stick with it? It's rather hard to make a counterpoint when there's a completely different argument every time I post. Are dex builds:
1) Superior at low levels, but strength catches up later.
2) Slow to start, but then catch up once agile weapons are available.
3) Equal and low levels, and superior later.
I haven't changed my position. I've consistently used a level 10 example that out DPS anything I've been presented in the Strength counterpart.
My statement is that they are equal at low levels (albiet different) and then Dex only bulids exponentially grow if they have a cost on Dex to damage feat.
I find that dex builds are strictly inferior to strength builds at early levels - barring bonus feats, they'll spend levels 1 & 2 doing zero damage. Dervish Dance comes online at 3 but ties up your off-hand (and so never catches up to THF), while Slashing Grace is expected to come online at 5 (WF at 1, WF: Weapon at 3, SG at 5). If the character plans to rely on Agile it's even worse, since Agile weapons typically become available around level 6-7. Five levels of doing 1d6 damage is utterly painful just to watch, never mind actually playing it.
Conversely the strength user doesn't have to jump through any hoops to do full damage right from level 1 and is free to put his feats into whatever he wants.
Can we pick a position and stick with it? It's rather hard to make a counterpoint when there's a completely different argument every time I post. Are dex builds:
1) Superior at low levels, but strength catches up later.
2) Slow to start, but then catch up once agile weapons are available.
3) Equal and low levels, and superior later.
I haven't changed my position. I've consistently used a level 10 example that out DPS anything I've been presented in the Strength counterpart.
My statement is that they are equal at low levels (albiet different) and then Dex only bulids exponentially grow if they have a cost on Dex to damage feat.
Granted, but you were only one of the people in the conversation. And jumped in with a third position that was different from the ones under discussion.
Granted, but you were only one of the people in the conversation. And jumped in with a third position that was different from the ones under discussion.Can we pick a position and stick with it? It's rather hard to make a counterpoint when there's a completely different argument every time I post. Are dex builds:
1) Superior at low levels, but strength catches up later.
2) Slow to start, but then catch up once agile weapons are available.
3) Equal and low levels, and superior later.
I haven't changed my position. I've consistently used a level 10 example that out DPS anything I've been presented in the Strength counterpart.
My statement is that they are equal at low levels (albiet different) and then Dex only bulids exponentially grow if they have a cost on Dex to damage feat.
Fair enough. I've been posting throughout the whole thing though, so I just jumped in here.
Only 2 combinations can get dex to damage at level 1
Dervish Dancer via early dervish dance
Human Fighter via slashing grace (investing 3 feats)
Human Swashbuckler can pull it off too, since they get Weapon Finesse from their class.
Human Swashbuckler can pull it off too, since they get Weapon Finesse from their class.Only 2 combinations can get dex to damage at level 1
Dervish Dancer via early dervish dance
Human Fighter via slashing grace (investing 3 feats)
There is also: Human Daring Champion
Human Kensai Magus, both use slashing grace. I'm also sure some other combination can do it.
I've consistently used a level 10 example that out DPS anything I've been presented in the Strength counterpart.
I'd lend your level 10 build argument more credence if it was properly statted out - like I mentioned before, there are numerous mistakes in the build. Not saying this is your fault, you mentioned that you took someone else's character and tweaked it to use dex instead so the errors might very well have been there from the start.
Secondly, I'd suggest considering the defenses of the character as well as the offensive power - a will save of +3 at level 10 is... Well, I have a hard time believing this character survived to level 10. TWFing vicious weapons makes the character an utter pain to keep alive when you have ~80 HP and vicious takes an average of 15 HP each round - removing half your HP every three rounds is probably not an ideal approach to combat, especially when you have no way of healing yourself. Good optimization is about making an effective character, not a character with the highest numbers.
Finally, is your point that your dex fighter does more DPR than a THF fighter, or that your fighter does more damage than any other build? If it's the former then I'm actually fine with that - I'd guess a THF fighter would have ~20 or so less DPR, but massively better saves, 15 foot reach and many more options available to him. If it's the latter then that's patently false. One example among many, I'd say that AM BARBARIAN will dramatically outperform your character in the DPR department. So will numerous other builds.
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In my personal experience dex-to-damage builds are somewhat more jack of all trades. They do ok in skills and ok in combat. Str-to-damage builds rock in combat but out of combat just clean their swords and do nothing (or swim in a pond or something).
But hey scorpioni, a dex character can have as high a dex as a strength character has strength, thus dealing the same damage with higher AC?
Not correct:
As displayed multiple times in this thread alone, the initial higher AC from dex characters is mostly bypassed by higher armor of str characters due to the max dex bonus of armors (sometimes as soon as lvl3 hits).
As for damage:
- Rage (urban barbarian can have the same damage upgrade but the downsides don't make it viable)
- Dragon disciple untyped boosts
- Abbyssal / Orc bloodline (either sorcerer or eldritch heritage feats; better than reading the dex books by a mile)
- Enlarge Person (THE workhorse of the low level martial)
- Monstrous Physique / Form of the dragon (up to +10(!) size bonus to str, yes please).
- No 1,5 damage bonus for THW
- Dragon style + Dragon ferocity
- ...
The list goes on...
What are the options for the dex user to increase damage in ways the str user cannot?
I know of elemental body and that's about it....
Conclusion for me: Dex-to-damage ain't broken, hell it doesn't even compare. If you want to be the king of combat, you're a Str-user.
Don't get me wrong, I love dex characters with dex to damage! But before play even begins I reconcile with the fact I'll never be the DPR machine unless I'm the only martial in the group.
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Rage: You're now getting a finite resource that requires cross-class dipping. The dex character can use this, too. Doesn't Urban Barbarian provide a dex buff?
Dragon Disciple requires you to take levels in spellcaster and drop BAB.
Abyssal and Orc bloodlines require massive investment in Charisma.
Enlarge Person is not a class ability for martials, so you're either dependent on another caster or dipping a specific cleric domain, or turning into a spellcaster.
Monstrous Physique/Form of the Dragon - requires high level spellcasting.
Dragon Style + dragon Ferocity = 3 feat tax (IUS also required).
The dex advantage to armor is absolute and easily managed vs heavy armor. Medium armor is at best a +1 Armor over light, and heavy +1 over medium. So you're talking a +2 AC.
However, armor remains static. Dex continues to rise rapidly. IF we are talking fighters and not giving up armor training, it is extremely unlikely that a fighter is going to max out his dex bonus to AC until very high levels (a Mithril BP accommodates a level 10 Fighter's 24 dex just fine, and Celestial mail would accommodate a dex of 30).
I also find it very odd that you're going to compare a dex twf build to a Str 2hw build. If you want to make a straight comparison, you have to make it style to style.
TWF for both stats.
Sword and Board for both stats.
2hw for both stats.
Then you have to keep in mind that at pretty much all times, the Dex guy will have:
A much higher reflex save.
Better initiative.
Probably better AC and better touch AC.
Better ability with Archery and missile fire.
A much higher bonus on Dex skills.
Assuming the same gear, the Dex guy comes out ahead on defense, and will be ahead, on par, or slightly behind on melee offense, while ahead on missile offense.
Also, remember that Dex guy raises Str at the same rate as Str guy raises Dex, and if they start with the same stat, carrying capacity will likely not be an issue, or solved with minor investment.
At extremely high levels, the advantages of a high Dex over a high Str for most melees are impressive when it comes to defense. Having a 5-10 point defensive advantage for AC is very powerful.
This case of comparing a 2hw Str guy to a 2wf dex guy just makes no relative sense.
==Aelryinth
I'm not comparing specific builds. I was assuming this thread was about comparing all sorts of characters on the general topic of dex vs str? Barbarians, gishes of all forms and flavours (inquisitors, bards, dragon disciples, eldritch knights,...), monks, slayers, rangers,... One of the things talked about on and on is that dex-to-damage somehow 'endangers' the DPR of str builds. I'm seeing no evidence tbh. Not from reading the books and not from actual play (both actually playing dex and str chars and witnessing them see play).
To elaborate on my examples:
- A str monk or sacred fist can take dragon style... there is no equivalent for a dex monk.
- A barbarian's rage is more performing than an urban barbarian's.
- A sorcerer dragon disciple gish has str boosts but no (easy) access to dex boosts (and dragon disciple doesn't increase dex anyway).
- An eldritch knight gish has access to all sorts of varied str transformations but no good access to dex buffs (as most decrease your size and thus your combat performance).
- A str fighter with a greatsword has better damage output than a dex fighter with an elven curve blade due to no 1.5 times stat to damage.
- Any str user has easy access to enlarge person (gulp... that potion hit the spot); there is no equivalent for dex users. You have of course bull's strength vs cat's grace so at least there is parity there.
- For the bloodlines; once again the fact that it requires feats has no meaning. The point is there is no EQUIVALENT choice for dex users.
Those are the differences I'm talking about.
I'm aware most of the options I listed require an investment. Making investments is what the game is sort of all about. Having the option to make an investment to increase your damage output is better than having no option at all.
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The reason there's no equivalent choice is that a massive increase in dex is more powerful then a massive increase in Str.
A massive increase in Str basically gives you melee to hit, melee damage, ranged damage, carrying capacity, and Str checks/skills.
A massive increase in Dex can give you melee AND missile to hit and damage, AC, initiative, touch AC, a plethora of skills, and Reflex saves. Dex is useful to every single character, while Str is only useful to Str melee builds.
The best analogue is simply melee monsters. What does all the extra strength give them? Not much. The real power is to hit and Power Attack and its equivalents. The simple limit of one attack on a move is a real problem.
And you're also missing the fact that Weapon Finesse and Agile ARE those equivalent feats for Dex users. They provide massive upgrades to melee to hit and damage. Str has no equivalents to them!
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as for build comparisons:
A Dex to damage twf build will likely blow a Str twf build away, simply because of the dex req for TWF.
A sword and board will likely be equivalent in DPR, with the Dex to damage guy using a buckler. The Dex guy keeps all his other advantages, however.
The 2hw Str guy has an absolute advantage damage advantage over a Curve Blade user, or a katana wielded 2handed, because of Str and Power Attack interactions. However, the Dex user still has his other advantages. I'm fairly sure that if the two fought, the 5ish point AC advantage of the Dex user would trump the damage of the Str guy, all else being equal.
The Dex guy will enjoy an absolute advantage in ranged combat, Reflex saves, Touch AC, initiative and dex skills like, oh, Stealth. That never changes, regardless of build, but seems to keep getting lost in the DPR comparison.
==Aelryinth
Assuming you meant "equal to its strength equivalent" - no, no it isn't. At the start, the dex-to-damage build is terrible. It eats all the feats, it requires multi-classing in specific ways, it restricts racial options, it locks you into a single fighting style and it's just generally terrible. Does it get better later? Yes, because there is no down from the floor. Does it have other advantages? Yes, a couple. Like, it can use acrobatics to move in combat - though it doesn't want to, since it's probably TWFing. Does its AC scale ad infinitum as you seem to think? No, because max dex limits are still a thing, and armour with a better max dex limit is armour with less armour.
I've been trying to build dex-based fighters who are functional at low levels, because that's my favoured style and I have to start at level 1. And I can't do it, it just doesn't work very well. And it's really frustrating. I want a smart fast fighter who does cool tactical stuff, and that can't be done with dex, because dex restricts my weapons and eats all my feats. And this conversation about how dex is too powerful? This is really silly.
My point is Dex builds are equal to Str builds in thier current iteration. They have a higher AC and do less damage, but the trade-off is fair. The Dex builds do NOT need to go straight for Dex To Damage Feats, and can build normally (pretty much like they are now) to play and survive. It requires NO racial options. I see that it is no more restrictive than any other weapon style format and being locked into it. Once they do get the Dex to damage, the gains are exponential. Max Dex limits are not really a major concern as they are limited, but its at the minimum equal to Full Plate when you get that much dex. Also, the dex is better for scenariors where you are considered to not have armor like... being captured. I will admit that those scenarios are rare.
I have a level 4 Bloodrager (Ironblood Archetype) right now that is very functional at low level. He is our party's tank, and has respectable damage with Two Weapon Fighting Style. We even have a fighter who is our highest damage dealer, but a lot of his damage from the single attacks gets lost because its overkill. However, we serve different roles, and I believe in a fight, my character would beat his because... well... I have higher Initiative, and can steal his weapon with Improved Disarm and I get two chances to try for it.
The question is not whether Dex is too powerful as it is currently. My statement is that it is currently balanced. The argument is whether a Dex to damage feat is going to tip the balances. Will it outshine the Strength based equivilent? Low levels- no... high levels... well that is what the debate is about.
I've consistently used a level 10 example that out DPS anything I've been presented in the Strength counterpart.I'd lend your level 10 build argument more credence if it was properly statted out - like I mentioned before, there are numerous mistakes in the build. Not saying this is your fault, you mentioned that you took someone else's character and tweaked it to use dex instead so the errors might very well have been there from the start.
Secondly, I'd suggest considering the defenses of the character as well as the offensive power - a will save of +3 at level 10 is... Well, I have a hard time believing this character survived to level 10. TWFing vicious weapons makes the character an utter pain to keep alive when you have ~80 HP and vicious takes an average of 15 HP each round - removing half your HP every three rounds is probably not an ideal approach to combat, especially when you have no way of healing yourself. Good optimization is about making an effective character, not a character with the highest numbers.
Finally, is your point that your dex fighter does more DPR than a THF fighter, or that your fighter does more damage than any other build? If it's the former then I'm actually fine with that - I'd guess a THF fighter would have ~20 or so less DPR, but massively better saves, 15 foot reach and many more options available to him. If it's the latter then that's patently false. One example among many, I'd say that AM BARBARIAN will dramatically outperform your character in the DPR department. So will numerous other builds.
Well I knew there were mistakes, which is why I initially didnt post it. Though I felt like the insane DPR that it deals showed the peak by which Dex achieves, and that it will scale back equally with each weakness being shored up by other abilities.
I was talking about DPR olympics which has specific requirements for defense as well. They aren't heavy, but the defense requirement has been met for the ruleset we were using. Changing Vicious out with Elemental damage only reduces my damage output by about 11DPR. 17 is still insane DPR. Remember that the typical monster only has 130 HP, and the DPR is based on hitting the typical monster of equal level. I could drop out Desperate Battler to gain Iron Will and lose another like... 4 DPR.
My statement has always been... build equal damage with any other build and that it is consistent. There is a build in the DPR olympics that does 200+ damage on charge rounds, but less than 100 in non-charge rounds. The DPR of the fighter that I restatted this from had 40 less DPR, not 20. If you think that there are other builds of any type that will outperform my character in raw DPS, by all means, please - present me with the evidence. Do the math, and let me know. Don't tell me that you are 'sure of it'. show it to me.
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The reason there's no equivalent choice is that a massive increase in dex is more powerful then a massive increase in Str.
A massive increase in Str basically gives you melee to hit, melee damage, ranged damage, carrying capacity, and Str checks/skills.
A massive increase in Dex can give you melee AND missile to hit and damage, AC, initiative, touch AC, a plethora of skills, and Reflex saves. Dex is useful to every single character, while Str is only useful to Str melee builds.
The best analogue is simply melee monsters. What does all the extra strength give them? Not much. The real power is to hit and Power Attack and its equivalents. The simple limit of one attack on a move is a real problem.
And you're also missing the fact that Weapon Finesse and Agile ARE those equivalent feats for Dex users. They provide massive upgrades to melee to hit and damage. Str has no equivalents to them!
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as for build comparisons:A Dex to damage twf build will likely blow a Str twf build away, simply because of the dex req for TWF.
A sword and board will likely be equivalent in DPR, with the Dex to damage guy using a buckler. The Dex guy keeps all his other advantages, however.
The 2hw Str guy has an absolute advantage damage advantage over a Curve Blade user, or a katana wielded 2handed, because of Str and Power Attack interactions. However, the Dex user still has his other advantages. I'm fairly sure that if the two fought, the 5ish point AC advantage of the Dex user would trump the damage of the Str guy, all else being equal.
The Dex guy will enjoy an absolute advantage in ranged combat, Reflex saves, Touch AC, initiative and dex skills like, oh, Stealth. That never changes, regardless of build, but seems to keep getting lost in the DPR comparison.
==Aelryinth
A dex to damage TWfer wont be more powerful than a STR Twf Ranger, it will have better initiative and reflex but -3 feat bacause of feat taxes. Also you need Str to Power attack, so if you go full dex you may want to dump str (a little) but you would lose quite some damage
There are ways to get STR to ranged combat attack roll (throwing) and still STR is very important for bow users damage. A full dex character wont be doing more than 1d10 damage in range.
AC has a cap, it doesnt matter how much dex you get, you get the same Ac at the end. Investing different resources will get you different kinds of AC, touch or flatfooted, you pick
Another thing to consider on strength vs. dex, a 2wf build suffers a lot more when it can't make a full attack.
Another thing to consider on strength vs. dex, a 2wf build suffers a lot more when it can't make a full attack.
True. However, they are more mobile due to lighter armor and move restraints, and will more likely be able to get an attack instead of denied attack based on movement.
Another thing to consider on strength vs. dex, a 2wf build suffers a lot more when it can't make a full attack.True. However, they are more mobile due to lighter armor and move restraints, and will more likely be able to get an attack instead of denied attack based on movement.
Which would help a lot more if you didn't lose your full attack once you moved more than five feet, regardless of how mobile your character is (barring abilities like Pounce, of course).
Attacks of opportunity would also favor the strength fighter, though I suppose one could make the case that a dex fighter would get more out of combat reflexes. Though really, without reach it would be rare to have a chance to make more than one attack of opportunity per turn anyway.
Besides str based benefit more from enlarge person that also give reach.
Attacks of opportunity would also favor the strength fighter, though I suppose one could make the case that a dex fighter would get more out of combat reflexes. Though really, without reach it would be rare to have a chance to make more than one attack of opportunity per turn anyway.
Reduce person benefits the Dex build. Doesnt give reach, but improves hit, damage based on improved Dex... and then again... hit and AC from the benefit of the reduction in size.
Another thing to consider on strength vs. dex, a 2wf build suffers a lot more when it can't make a full attack.True. However, they are more mobile due to lighter armor and move restraints, and will more likely be able to get an attack instead of denied attack based on movement.Which would help a lot more if you didn't lose your full attack once you moved more than five feet, regardless of how mobile your character is (barring abilities like Pounce, of course).
Attacks of opportunity would also favor the strength fighter, though I suppose one could make the case that a dex fighter would get more out of combat reflexes. Though really, without reach it would be rare to have a chance to make more than one attack of opportunity per turn anyway.
What I'm saying is that you may not get an attack at all if you have heavy armor because of your 20ft restriction. That can be mitigated, but it requires resources.
Also... the attacks of opportunity are only better with strength characters who use a two handed weapon, but would be virtually the same (Depending on level) for two weapon fighters who use strength.
A dex to damage TWfer wont be more powerful than a STR Twf Ranger, it will have better initiative and reflex but -3 feat bacause of feat taxes. Also you need Str to Power attack, so if you go full dex you may want to dump str (a little) but you would lose quite some damage
There are ways to get STR to ranged combat attack roll (throwing) and still STR is very important for bow users damage. A full dex character wont be doing more than 1d10 damage in range.
AC has a cap, it doesnt matter how much dex you get, you get the same Ac at the end. Investing different resources will get you different kinds of AC, touch or flatfooted, you pick
It costs the Ranger the same feats it does a Dex guy, but now the ranger can't wear the heavy armor, which was another argument for Str guy. So he loses out on mobility AND heavy armor if you're using Ranger feats for the TWF.
Dex ranger is not a problem.
If you are doing a comparison for Dex and Str, you're going to assume either 18 or 20 in the one and 12 or 13 in the other. That's a straight comparison.
I thought Str for throwing weapons was a 4E thing? Or did you need a feat? Memory is going.
Yes, Str is important for bow users. However, the Dex guy is at +5 or better to hit on the Str guy. He can either use Deadly Aim to even the odds, or simply hit with his iteratives more.
Celestial Mail and Armor training blow the 'same armor' paradigm out of the water. You don't get Dex to AC in heavy armor unless a) you have the Dex and b) you have the armor training. Note that the 2hW fighter archetype loses Armor Training.
Note that Celestial Mail accommodates a flat 26 dex for +4/+8 to AC, base, which is higher then the +9/+1 of Full plate. That's a +2 AC advantage, and scales higher if you add Mithral and Armor Training, potentially all the way to a 38 Dex.
There's definitely a cap on what a heavy armor wearer is gonna get for AC. But with the right gear, a Dex user's AC is potentially unlimited (after all, he can even go Bracers of ARmor if he needs to, no dex cap!)
A 30 Str THW guy vs a 30 Dex Curve blade or Katana guy has a +6 damage advantage. But the Dex guy probably has a 6 pt AC advantage (assuming Str guy 12 dex with a +6 item and armor training/mithral). They both get identical benefits from Power Attack.
For that +6 damage, the +6 relative AC, Init, Reflex save and skills doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.
==Aelryinth
Can we pick a position and stick with it? It's rather hard to make a counterpoint when there's a completely different argument every time I post. Are dex builds:
1) Superior at low levels, but strength catches up later.
2) Slow to start, but then catch up once agile weapons are available.
3) Equal and low levels, and superior later.
How about
4) More complicated than all of that. I have mostly been pointing out the advantages of dex builds, since the str advantages have been pretty well covered.With the current RAW
At low levels, Dex builds will have a significant defensive advantage over STR builds, while STR builds will have a significant damage advantage. At level 1, I can hit 18-20 AC with a dex build while doing 2 attacks at 1d6 damage with a +3 to hit. With a strength build, I can get 2d6 + 12 with a +7 to hit, but end up with an AC of 14(yay, barbarian rage).
By the time the dex builds start to catch up to the str builds in damage, the str builds have the opportunity to catch up in AC, init, and reflex saves via feats and equipment. This happens around level 6-8.
At level 10, things are pretty balanced, but dex builds have a clear advantage in init and reflex, and there are no feats left for the str build to take to close the gap. The str build maintains a damage advantage, but only in the absence of party buffs. From this point on, the dex build stays on par in damage(especially in a group setting), and gets increasingly better init and reflex.
By level 15, the dex build is usually on top, but most campaigns are over or winding down at this point, and the advantage isn't huge. Also, this is comparing highly optimized built from scratch builds, which is not how campaigns generally play out.
TLDR: Dex builds are currently 2-5 levels of suck damage with high defense to be all around stronger at higher levels.
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Late to the show, but some things that I find make a difference.
1) As much as I love my DEX fighter, he will never get his damage up to a STR build's level.
2) The heavy armor closing the gap in AC argument is flawed. I consistently have an AC 5+ higher at low levels, 10+ higher at mid levels, and 15+ higher at upper levels. I use abilities and tactics that a STR based fighter can not use at near the efficiency. My optimized Aldori Swordlord at high level using Combat Expertise, fighting defensively and Defensive Parry, takes a -1 to hit for a +15 dodge bonus to AC.
3) A proper DEX build makes a better tank. I take slightly longer to kill the enemy (although I make up for that with Combat Maneuvers), but I also take much less damage, making me more survivable and using far less party resources for healing. Give me a restricted spot (door, bridge, etc.) and I can hold up the enemy practically indefinitely, allowing casters to cast and/or buff, ranged guys can shoot with impunity, and Clerics can use offensive spells for a change instead of channeling and/or healing.
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A dex to damage TWfer wont be more powerful than a STR Twf Ranger, it will have better initiative and reflex but -3 feat bacause of feat taxes. Also you need Str to Power attack, so if you go full dex you may want to dump str (a little) but you would lose quite some damage
There are ways to get STR to ranged combat attack roll (throwing) and still STR is very important for bow users damage. A full dex character wont be doing more than 1d10 damage in range.
AC has a cap, it doesnt matter how much dex you get, you get the same Ac at the end. Investing different resources will get you different kinds of AC, touch or flatfooted, you pick
It costs the Ranger the same feats it does a Dex guy, but now the ranger can't wear the heavy armor, which was another argument for Str guy. So he loses out on mobility AND heavy armor if you're using Ranger feats for the TWF.
Dex ranger is not a problem.
If you are doing a comparison for Dex and Str, you're going to assume either 18 or 20 in the one and 12 or 13 in the other. That's a straight comparison.
I thought Str for throwing weapons was a 4E thing? Or did you need a feat? Memory is going.
Yes, Str is important for bow users. However, the Dex guy is at +5 or better to hit on the Str guy. He can either use Deadly Aim to even the odds, or simply hit with his iteratives more.Celestial Mail and Armor training blow the 'same armor' paradigm out of the water. You don't get Dex to AC in heavy armor unless a) you have the Dex and b) you have the armor training. Note that the 2hW fighter archetype loses Armor Training.
Note that Celestial Mail accommodates a flat 26 dex for +4/+8 to AC, base, which is higher then the +9/+1 of Full plate. That's a +2 AC advantage, and scales higher if you add Mithral and Armor Training, potentially all the way to a 38 Dex.There's definitely a cap on what a heavy armor wearer is gonna get for AC. But with the right gear, a Dex user's AC is potentially unlimited (after all, he can even go...
Belt of Mighty Hurling and his lesser version gets you Str to Throw attack rolls.
Archery comparison may be innacurate, dedicated archery requires quite a lot feats, on the other hand TWf also require quite some feats and dex to damage require 3 feats. Switch hitters are possible but its kind of a niche build. Impliying that a TWFEr can also be the ultimate archer may be exaggerated. a Dex TWFEr archer wanna be requires a whooping 8 feats just for this (PBS, Precise shot, WF, Finesse ,Slashing Grace, 3 TWF feats) and that witouth counting deadly aimCelestial armor costs 22400, gives you 9 ac with max dex bonus of 6. For a maximum of 25 amor if you have the dex
A +4 FullPlate costs 16000, gives you 12 armor max dex of 1.
For a Maximum if 23 armor, minimun 22.
Celestial armor has the added benefit of flight once per day. But anyway the different is 2 ac, not really quite the difference, plus the celestial armor cannot be upgraded nor it can have special properties. A+5 Fullplate reduces this further (25k cost) for a max armor of 24.
I dont think armor training should be counted because it assumes all dex characters are gonna be fighters which dont trade it for something else.
Now the bracers of armor is another different story, altought it ocuppies an important slot and has +8 cap. In this case dex flat out wins.
Now the thing is that you cannot buy feats, the dex guy still has minus 3 feats.
+6 damage is better that greater weapon specialization is kind of a big deal.
So in the deal you get.
+Init
+Reflex
+AC
Lose
-3 feats
-6 damage to more damage
The added more damge is if the character is a barbarian, in which case his str and damage lose (versus urban or the like) will be higher
IF we are talking fighters and not giving up armor training, it is extremely unlikely that a fighter is going to max out his dex bonus to AC until very high levels (a Mithril BP accommodates a level 10 Fighter's 24 dex just fine, and Celestial mail would accommodate a dex of 30).And:
A massive increase in Dex can give you melee AND missile to hit and damage, AC, initiative, touch AC, a plethora of skills, and Reflex saves. Dex is useful to every single character, while Str is only useful to Str melee builds.I see the problem here - your dex-based character that you're hating on is schroedingers dex-based character. They're a fighter (otherwise they wouldn't have armour training), but they're also a swashbuckler when they need to be, and with five levels of gunslinger too. They have all the feats they need, they have all the enchantments they need, and they don't have any restrictions - because they exist in a state of quantum flux, not on an actual character sheet.
I'm not quite sure if this is directed at me or the other Dex builds.
If you're building a dex character, you're going to wear armor that maxes your Dex bonus. Doing otherwise is dumb. If at all possible, you're going to optimize with Celestial mail and mithral.
If you're a fighter (and the comparison seems to be to a 2hW fighter), you have armor training, so like to like.
I'm not touching on any of the various ways to get Dex to TH and Dmg. Note that level 7 fighter /3 swash does the job and changes nothing.
As for uber archer: I said nothing of the sort. He'll be the uber archer the same way Valeros is: He's got a high Dex and can hit things at range because he's got that Dex. A 30 Dex fighter vs an 18 Dex fighter has a +6 bonus to hit...which pays entirely for the cost of Deadly Aim and STILL lets him hit more stuff then the Str guy, and do more damage. If they both have adaptive bows and the Dex guy an 18 Str, he's going to consistently outdamage the Str guy with ranged attacks simply because he hits more.
Now, if he wants to grab the 3 key archery feats, it all works out really, really well for him. Not so much the Str guy.
==Aelryinth
Weapon Finesse is one of those 'better then Weapon Focus' feats, and Dex to Damage is one of those 'better then any other feat or class ability' feats.
==Aelryinth
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Belt of Mighty Hurling and his lesser version gets you Str to Throw attack rolls.But now you have no belt of dex/str/con.
Not true, the mighty hurling belt grats you enhacement bonus to str and trought ion stones and magic item creation rules you can get enhacement bonuses easily
Celestial armor costs 22400, gives you 9 ac with max dex bonus of 6. For a maximum of 25 amor if you have the dexCelestial armor is 9 AC with max dex of 8 and there are apparently rules in Ultimate Campaign that discuss increasing the enchantment to named armors.
True i read something wrong (so is 27 AC max), i know nothing about those rules tought, but they fall under houserules/dm fiat
A +4 FullPlate costs 16000, gives you 12 armor max dex of 1.
For a Maximum if 23 armor, minimun 22.+4 FullPlate costs 17650, gives you 13 armor with max dex of 1.
+14 from armor and dex with potential to go to +15. Full Plate reduces movement speed and comes with 2.5 times the penalty to skills.
Again true. +4 Fullplate get you to 24 ac. 3 point of difference. Something i handt addressed before, mithral fullplate can get
you to 27 ac if you have moderate dex.
Finesse is better then focus in the same way that Empower Spell is better then Weapon Focus - if you're someone who can take advantage of the feat, it's at worst equal (at +1) but applies to many more weapons, and at best can give you +8-10 higher To Hit.
So if you can use it, it's awesome. If you can't use it, it's like saying Empower Spell is good for fighters...you get ???
And anyone that thinks Sacred Geometry is a good feat for a Dex fighter is a little cuckoo, too.
==Aelryinth
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Almost all fighters (and swashbucklers) take Weapon Focus. Aside from the +1 to hit, it also sets up for several other feats they intend to take. So claiming it as a specific feat tax for DEX to damage is somewhat dishonest.
As to feats needed to get DEX to damage (that are of no benefit anywhere else), there are only two, Weapon Finesse and either Slashing Grace or Dervish Dance. You can have DEX to damage at 1st level by playing a human Swashbuckler or you can skip using the second feat by waiting until 6th level and get into the Aldori Swordlord PrC (which gives DEX to damage at 1st level). The key is that there is tremendous synergy in the combination of classes (Swashbuckler and Aldori SL PrC) and the combat feats associated with them (Slashing Grace, Combat Expertise, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, etc.). Taking a dip into Monk (MoMS) for the Crane Style feats and you become a combat virtuoso with almost no fear of being hit and debuffing the enemy at will.
So all the dex fighter needs is the twf feat tree, three feats for dex to damage, and three ranged feats... This doesn't seem like a lot of feats to anyone else? I mean, this is completely nonviable on anything other than a fighter unless you want to have it play out at super high level when, incidentally, the martial classes become more and more marginalized by the games changing nature.
A TWF Dex fighter is the best comparison vs a TWF Str fighter. And since he has a higher AC, he doesn't suffer the poor AC that's the lot of the 2h and TWF styles.
A comparable is the Sword and Board builds, but the AC and saves of the Dex fighter will have the edge, in the end.
A 2h Dex fighter can do well, but will lag in damage even if he has better defenses.
So that's why you see the TWF Dex builds...it looks the best vs Str.
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And WEapon focus is a feat tax...as people have said, there's better ways to get a +1 to hit, except you need this for (dum dum dum) other feats, esp the weapon spec tree.
==Aelryinth
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Yes, there are other ways to get a +1, but they add to the +1 from WF. And yes, I agree WF is mostly a feat tax, but it is for SEVERAL feats that the DEX fighter is going to take, it is not just for the DEX to damage. The point being that my fighter type is going to take WF even if he isn't going to get DEX to damage, so counting it as a specific tax for that is inaccurate.
Our play styles obviously differ.
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My DEX fighters either have good CHA or good INT. In both cases they have exceptional Intimidate skill. The CHA guy has social skills, while the INT guy has knowledge skills. So both are useful out of combat. If, instead, you are saying in combat they are marginalized, then I disagree. Spells are great, but at high levels I have the gear to counter my weaknesses and I can do certain things that hamper the caster (aside from outright beating him like a red headed stepchild).
I think this is a decent way to describe the whole issue.
If I have a 24 Dex, which I think is an easy assumption that I could reach that. I would be getting a +7 to my ability modifier.
I think its fair to assume that the standard Dex build fighters/rangers/etc are relatively balanced with thier strength based counterparts in the current iteration. Dex may not have equal damage output, but they get other bonuses to help sustain them.
With the above information... balance and everything, please name me a trio of feats that provide a bonus to hit equal to +8, and bonus to damage equal to +7. Those three feat 'taxes' are what the chain provides. This is where the crux of the issue lies with me. Even assuming a decent strenght of 16... the effective bonuses are still +5/+4 which is pretty signifigant.
Also... you can get higher Dex than what is being presented as you advance and continue to get more and more bonuses because of it. You consolidate almost everything into one line of stats.
Edit:
If you want to argue the opposite way... provide me a set of three feats that provide a +5 bonus to Initiative, Reflex, AC, and several skill checks while having a 24 strength instead of Dex.
A TWF Dex fighter is the best comparison vs a TWF Str fighter. And since he has a higher AC, he doesn't suffer the poor AC that's the lot of the 2h and TWF styles.
A comparable is the Sword and Board builds, but the AC and saves of the Dex fighter will have the edge, in the end.
A 2h Dex fighter can do well, but will lag in damage even if he has better defenses.
So that's why you see the TWF Dex builds...it looks the best vs Str.
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And WEapon focus is a feat tax...as people have said, there's better ways to get a +1 to hit, except you need this for (dum dum dum) other feats, esp the weapon spec tree.==Aelryinth
The problem with this is the dex requirements on TWF feats. A Str based TWF will eventually need a 19 dexterity if they want to get all of the TWF feats. A Dex based TWF will already have a 19 dex and then some. This is why I like to compare the Dex TWF to a Str Two-hander.
So all the dex fighter needs is the twf feat tree, three feats for dex to damage, and three ranged feats... This doesn't seem like a lot of feats to anyone else? I mean, this is completely nonviable on anything other than a fighter unless you want to have it play out at super high level when, incidentally, the martial classes become more and more marginalized by the games changing nature.
TWF only requires 2 feats: TWF, and Improved TWF(at level 6). Greater TWF is optional as it is a minor increase in DPR.
Dex to damage only requires 1 feat: Weapon finesse. The other feats are just ways to allow you to use weapon finesse with other weapons.
You can make a dex based TWF paladin work just fine with just these 3 feats and agile weapons. Having a dex to damage feat just eliminates the need for agile weapons, and thus lets me start closing the damage gap with a str character sooner.
Pick up Piranha strike, and I am solid in melee, and now I have to option to either...
Pick up more feats to becomes better at melee(IE weapon focus, two weapon defense, etc.)
OR
Pick up a few archer feats to become a better rounded character(point blank shot, rapid shot, deadly aim)
If I go the second route, I will be a better archer than any str character could ever hope to be.
I just wanted to chime in agreement with the points put forth by Aelryinth,for what it's worth.
It strikes me as oddly self evident that Dex to dmg...if it were baked into the system for the cost of say...1 feat (no pre-reqs) would be much better than strength in most cases.The fact that so many people want it so badly says as much to me.
I use so many houserules and "fixes" in my games that it's not even an issue.I'm glad I don't have to deal with the nightmare of PFS GM'ing.
(maybe it's wonderful...never done it.) but the chatter on the boards makes it seem hellish.
Using called shots and lowering the damage threshold for debilitating injury to = more than half current hit points,or CON score(whichever is higher)
Does amazing things for precision striking,and turns STR builds into dismemberment machines. It makes everyone better.I recommend it to other home GM's.
Does PFS use optional rules like "called shots"?
The only player's I've ever seen even bring up trying to add dex to damage were heavy duty optimizers.Not that that's a bad thing...I'm an optimizer myself.
Most other player's seem fine with a 13 str and power attack,never developing a case of "Barbarian Envy". Elven curved blade still does decent damage(I know that's a disputed term).
I only say that because it seems funny that the player base who's generally most concerned with optimizing(i.e. being best),say that the thing that they so badly want isn't clearly better.
Is it worth 3 feats in PFS...hell if I know (probably not),but in my gaming group all the "tax feats" are two for one and there are s!$*-ton of other house adjustments in play.
My view of Pathfinder is that it's an Amazing toolkit,but no one pleases everyone all the time.
After 15 pages of houserules,it runs like a dream :) .will they ever make a better version that is perfect in my eyes...maybe,but a whole lot of people would invariably hate it and house rule it until it was "fixed" :) .Please don't think me Snarky...sisyphus(sp?)-like, give and take nature of game mechanics genuinely amuses me.