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Synos, question, if it doesn't become light armor by your interpretation, does it still get the stat changes from mithral? Not arguing, just curious your interpretation.
I did do such when I calculated it on the first page. In short, yes, it does benefit from modifiers from both the Mithral and Celestial aspects, it merely does not become Light armour by virtue of the specific wordings of the qualities and the order in which they are applied. Upon reflection, my calculations on the first page are flawed slightly, but the spirit remains true.
Mithral Celestial Plate Armour would, in my opinion, be +3 Full Plate with the following stats : Cost 37,650 GP, 12 AC, 8 MDB, -1 ACP, 10% ASF, weight 12.5 lbs, treated as Medium for all purposes and can cast Fly once per day.
The closest thing to rules the "order of operations" people have quoted is that you can't enchant something with armor enchants that isn't armor (even if it will be armor later). Nowhere in the rules you have quoted does it say that the order of operations come into play when determining statistics... It also doesn't say anything about armor enchantments overwriting the statistics of the armor being enchanted. In fact, in order to make anything from a special material, you have to determine the base statistics first, then apply mithral modifiers to it, despite not being made in that order. As you like to point out OVER and OVER again, you can't apply mithral to already made armor... My point has never been that you have the order the armor gets made wrong, simply that that order doesn't change how you stat the item and nothing in the rules says that order changes how you stat the item. You are completely nullifying the rules presented in Ultimate Campaign that have been quoted numerous times stating you CAN change the base material for specific magic items. If we were forced to follow your poorly interpreted order of operations ruling for all specific magic items, changing base material would never have an effect.
As someone who is arguing for an order of operations, which I feel is supported by the Magic Item Creation section stating that the armour must be made, or at least ready to be assembled, before enhancements can be applied, I do not believe enhancements overwrite the default statistics of the armour. I do believe that the implication of an order existing does imply modifiers should be calculated in that order. Otherwise, why have an order at all? The fact that they state that the armour must be made before it's enhanced means they considered, at least in part, that armours made of special materials could be enhanced and it could lead to messiness, so they put that in to show the special materials modifiers come first. Because, again, why include that note, that wording, if it were not to indicate something? I don't mean to imply that you, specifically, have been arguing that, merely that it has been argued, and rather than make 50 posts each addressing a single point, I made a few large ones (which seem to have broken done into many recently anyways, alas). As regards the FAQ, 1) it is a 3.5 item, and hence even if it had 500 FAQ tags, and managed to make it to the top of the currently ... delayed FAQ list, it would be marked "Staff reply : No response required", because it's not a Pathfinder item. 2) The original post is not a very good format for an FAQ question and has, in my opinion, been solidly explained why it wouldn't become Light, which is the only part of this discussion the first post asks.
I think its a fair assumption that the magic involved for Celestial Armor and Celestial Plate is the same magic applied to different armors. The pricing seems to go along with that assumption. So, if you take both into consideration, the Max Dex is changed by a flat amount, but ACP and ASF are approximately halved. (ACP is halved and rounded down, ASF is halved for the chainmail version, and ACP is halved, and ASF is halved and rounded up to nearest 5% increment for the full plate version). So, its a logical conclusion that you would alter the stats of the Mithral Full Plate similarly, not by set amounts. In that case, you would get 8 Max Dex (still), 1 ACP (although you could justify rounding the other way and get 2 ACP), 10% ASF. Yea, its still pretty powerful, its only a 5% ASF and maybe 1 ACP, but its something. Whether it ends up as light armor or medium armor can't really be said for sure, and is open to interpretation, but the end weight would be in the ballpark for light armor. And, this is based off an assumption of what Celestial does, since we can't know for sure...
As regards this point, you are mistaken, and I posted such on the 3rd page. The enhancements do not match up entirely. All three reduce ASF by 15%, exactly, all reduce ACP by 2 (except the Shield, but that's just because it only has -1 ACP to begin with), all half the weight. The costs and MDB bonus, however, vary. The Celestial Armour costs 13,100 GP and ups the MDB by 6, the Celestial Shield costs 4,000 GP and doesn't affect MDB at all, because it's already -. The Celestial Plate costs 18,000 GP and ups the MDB by 5. One less than the Celestial Armour, but costs 4,900 GP more. So "Celestial" in inconsistent. I prefer sticking to the Celestial from Plate, seeing as we're still working with Plate anyhow. You're right at the end though, this is all guesswork and assumptions, we can't know for sure.
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Hmm, I wonder if we're on the same page or talking past each other. I really need to communicate better. Anywho, I see three ways of seeing this "Celestial" business ;
1. "Celestial" treats an armour as a specific category. "Celestial" from Celestial Plate treats armour as Medium, and from Celestial Armour treats armour as Light. This comes about from the use of the language "treated as" as opposed to "made one step lighter".
2. "Celestial" treats armour as one step lighter. This comes about from Celestial Armour being Chainmail (Medium) being treated as Light, and Celestial Plate being Full Plate (Heavy) being treated as Medium.
3. "Celestial" treats Heavy armour as Medium and Medium armour as Light. This comes about from the same language as 2, but interpreted in a different way.
I was going between 1 & 2, but I believe 3 is what you are getting at? New to me, and certainly different than the traditional nature of enhancements (being more across-the-board than different-depending-on-material-applied-to). Still, a valid interpretation, as far as I can tell.
As far as the Mithral Celestial Plate Armour goes ;
1. Would result in Medium armour, if you took "Celestial" from Celestial Plate, and Light armour, if you took "Celestial" from Celestial Armour, regardless of what armour you applied it to. This would be kind of a silly thing to do, and I don't think a GM should run with this interpretation.
2. Would result in one of two interpretations.
A. Light armour, for purposes of movement and other limitations, and Medium armour for all other purposes. Mithral moves the armour one step lighter, i.e. Medium, "for purposes of movement and other limitations." "Celestial" then moves it one step lighter.
B. Medium armour. Mithral moves the armour one step lighter, i.e. Medium, "for purposes of movement and other limitations." Armour category is not a limitation, so the armour is still Heavy. "Celestial" then moves it to Medium in full.
3. The same two interpretations as 2.Nope.
I am saying there is no "Celestial" enhancement or pseudo enhancement.
The process for celestial armor treats the chainmail(medium armor) as light armor. Due to how it looks they called it celestial armor.
That process for Celestial plate treat the full plate(heavy armor) as medium armor, and it has similar features to celestial armor so they called it celestial plate.
The "celestial" is just the name of the finished producted. There is not one process.
I will put it another way. Celestial is not a process that makes armor one category lighter.
Each armor has magic applied that gives it a specific condition.
One process specifically says to treat chainmail as light armor which is not the same as "drop by one category"
Another armor treats full plate as medium armor, which also is not the same as "drop by one category"
Both processes give you a very specific armor. If they just generally dropped the armor by one category then it would be like any enhancement that could be applied to any armor.
The other thing is that the actual armor category never changes. So it is actually still heavy armor if you want to go with the full plate example. Heavy(celestial plate) + mithral = "treat as medium".
That is how I think the rules would apply to this 3.5 product.
It seems I have misunderstood your position yet again. My apologies. I fear I still don't quite get your approach. It is not a material, nor is it a process, nor is it an enhancement. It is a specific condition? One that cannot be applied to other armours? Sounds very much like the quality of an artefact, which Celestial Armour is not, per the book. I agree it never leaves Medium, but I fear I'm not grasping your other point(s). Apologies again. It is possibly too late to be trying to figure this.
I know this topic is a year old, but I must put my two cents in. And through my research on the topic, I have concluded many things:
1. "Celestial" is neither a 'Special Ability' nor a 'Special Material.' It is just part of the armor's name.
2. Both "Celestial Armor" & "Celestial Plate" are referenced in Paizo publications, so I don't understand why people keep calling them '3.5' items.
3. Silver is a non-Special Material that can only be applied to weapons by way of alchemical silvering. The process "...can't be applied to nonmetal items, and it doesn't work on rare metals such as adamantine, cold iron, and mithral." It can used on the following: Ammunition- +2gp per item, a Light weapon- +20gp, a One-handed weapon or one head of a double weapon- +90gp, a Two-handed weapon or both heads of a double weapon- +180gp.
4. P. 29 of Pathfinder #11 Curse of the Crimson Throne "Skeletons of Scarwall" reads that Celestial Plate is "...treated as medium armor" & was published August 14, 2008. Ultimate Equipment reads "...It is considered light armor" on p. 125 & is, to my knowledge, the most recent publication to mention either.
...Besides, I thought that everything from the 'Specific Magic' item lists weren't allowed to be customized, only enhanced.
References:
Pathfinder #11 Curse of the Crimson Throne: Skeletons of Scarwall, p. 29
Pathfinder Ultimate Equipment, p. 125
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/spec ificMagicArmorShields.html
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/armor.html#celestial-armor
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/armo rSpecialAbilities.html
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/armsAndArmor/materials .html
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/celest ial-armor
Billbo_Baggington, what you may not know is that not all Paizo publications are the Pathfinder RPG. There was an era when Paizo printed D&D 3.5 RPG materials. Celestial Plate is in one of those 3.5 publications (Skeletons of Scarwall).
The change was during 2009. Anything before that change was 3.5, anything after that change is the Pathfinder RPG. The last Paizo 3.5 adventure path was Legacy of Fire, the first Paizo Pathfinder RPG adventure path was Council of Thieves (although it was written during the transition so the first book is a bit off).
So when people reference Celestial Plate as 3.5, they are correct. It has not yet been (re-)printed for the Pathfinder RPG.
LazarX, this is a necro'd thread that Billbo_Baggington necro'd. :)
So, even though the Celestial Plate is on Paizo's "Pathfinder Reference Document" website, it still counts as 3.5 because it hasn't shown up in any recent physically printed documentation?
And, am I correct in my interpretation of "Specific Magic" items? Or that Celestial is just a word in the armor's name?
So, even though the Celestial Plate is on Paizo's "Pathfinder Reference Document" website, it still counts as 3.5 because it hasn't shown up in any recent physically printed documentation?
And, am I correct in my interpretation of "Specific Magic" items? Or that Celestial is just a word in the armor's name?
I cannot find Celestial Plate on the PRD, can you cite please?
To answer your question, RAW, Celestial Plate is a specific magic item. The name is tied to its properties, but its properties cannot be itemized and broken down within the rules context without getting into DM territory. RAW self conflicts as it sometimes does, but RAI gets interesting with the idea.
RAI interests us because there is a whole series of Celestial specific items including the Celestial Armor, Plate, Shield, and the recently released Armor of the Celestial Host. The existence of multiple specific items with similar nomenclature implies that RAI they are related to each other somehow, and however that is it can be messed with because the rules released in Ultimate Campaign allow us to mess with base items and base materials for specific items.
Billbo_Baggington, I think you are confusing Celestial Armor with Celestial Plate. Celestial Armor is chainmail while Celestial Plate is full plate.
Celestial Plate is not on the Paizo PRD, if you can provide the link that shows it is please do so (none of the links you have already provided are for Celestial Plate).
Celestial Plate has never been reprinted in a Pathfinder RPG publication. It can only be found in a 3.5 publication module.
Billbo_Baggington, I think you are confusing Celestial Armor with Celestial Plate. Celestial Armor is chainmail while Celestial Plate is full plate.
Celestial Plate is not on the Paizo PRD, if you can provide the link that shows it is please do so (none of the links you have already provided are for Celestial Plate).
Celestial Plate has never been reprinted in a Pathfinder RPG publication. It can only be found in a 3.5 publication module.
Sorry for the 3 month late response, but family happened, so... Anyway, it is my understanding that as a Pathfinder Adventure Path, "Curse of the Crimson Throne" is not 3.5. This is the only Paizo Publication I am aware of that mentions Celestial Plate.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy83yw/discuss?Pathfinder-11-Curse-of-the-Crims on-Throne-Chapter-5-Skeletons-of-Scarwall
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Curse of the Crimson Throne, like Legacy of Fire, Second Darkness, and the original version of Rise of the Runelords*, is a Pathfinder Adventure Path written for the 3.5 edition of D&D. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game wasn't used for Adventure Paths until Council of Thieves, two full APs later.
So celestial plate armor is a 3.5 item - it just happened to appear in a Paizo module under the Pathfinder brand.
*The Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition is a version of the Path updated for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. If CotCT ever sees a similar reprinting, celestial plate armor and the also-controversial guided weapon special property may become official Pathfinder Roleplaying Game magic items.
You can make it Mithral per RAW, but since the armor is already treated as one category lighter, and mithral does the same thing the GM could rule that mithral acts on the base armor type, and only overlaps, but does not stack. Ask your GM.
This is the relavant point.
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
According to its description, celestial armor is *already* made out of a gold or silver material that is at least as good as mithral, maybe better. It's a shame it doesn't just say outright that it's made of mithral, in order to remove any ambiguity. But the description of "this bright silver or gold" metal that is supremely "fine and light" sounds better than mithral, or certainly no worse than mithral.
Obviously, an individual DM can rule however he wants. But he'd better prepare a very large platter if he plans on serving this much cheese at his table. <g>
Billbo_Baggington, I think you are confusing Celestial Armor with Celestial Plate. Celestial Armor is chainmail while Celestial Plate is full plate.
Celestial Plate is not on the Paizo PRD, if you can provide the link that shows it is please do so (none of the links you have already provided are for Celestial Plate).
Celestial Plate has never been reprinted in a Pathfinder RPG publication. It can only be found in a 3.5 publication module.
Sorry for the 3 month late response, but family happened, so... Anyway, it is my understanding that as a Pathfinder Adventure Path, "Curse of the Crimson Throne" is not 3.5. This is the only Paizo Publication I am aware of that mentions Celestial Plate.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy83yw/discuss?Pathfinder-11-Curse-of-the-Crims on-Throne-Chapter-5-Skeletons-of-Scarwall
Again, not all Paizo Publications are Pathfinder RPG and not all Pathfinder Adventure Paths are Pathfinder RPG.
"Curse of the Crimson Throne" is a module written by Paizo for Pathfinder Campaign Setting using the D&D 3.5 rules set.One campaign setting, two separate rules sets (note the division in 3.5 vs Pathfinder products in the campaign setting).
Celestial Plate Armor is no more Pathfinder RPG than the Nimbleness armor property (Magic Item Compendium p13) is.
Just look at the book already and educate yourself on what is a D&D 3.5 rules era publication and what is a Pathfinder RPG rules era publication and then please stop calling "Celestial Plate Armor" Pathfinder (RPG) since it is clearly 3.5 (RPG).
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Billbo_Baggington, I think you are confusing Celestial Armor with Celestial Plate. Celestial Armor is chainmail while Celestial Plate is full plate.
Celestial Plate is not on the Paizo PRD, if you can provide the link that shows it is please do so (none of the links you have already provided are for Celestial Plate).
Celestial Plate has never been reprinted in a Pathfinder RPG publication. It can only be found in a 3.5 publication module.
Sorry for the 3 month late response, but family happened, so... Anyway, it is my understanding that as a Pathfinder Adventure Path, "Curse of the Crimson Throne" is not 3.5. This is the only Paizo Publication I am aware of that mentions Celestial Plate.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy83yw/discuss?Pathfinder-11-Curse-of-the-Crims on-Throne-Chapter-5-Skeletons-of-Scarwall
Before the Pathfinder ruleset was made Paizo made products for the 3.5 system as a 3rd party producer just like Frog Pond Games makes things for Pathfinder as 3pp. CotCT is a 3.5 product using the 3.5 rules, that was created by Paizo.
Celestial Armor just needs reprinted under the PF ruleset, and clarified to be a special material. It would put an end to threads like these, and the stacking shenanigans.
Celestial Armor just needs reprinted under the PF ruleset, and clarified to be a special material. It would put an end to threads like these, and the stacking shenanigans.
Celestial Armor is a pathfinder item. Celestial Plate is not. Since it is not actually a part of the rules, then the rules can not apply to it.
The debate was on how Celestial Plate worked with mitral.
Celestial Armor just needs reprinted under the PF ruleset, and clarified to be a special material. It would put an end to threads like these, and the stacking shenanigans.
Ughhhhhhhhhh
Are you saying you want them to declare that the celestial property is from a special material?Because RAW it isn't. I the first page I linked to the other thread which has the citations and justifications from Inner Sea Gods for improving existing specific items, Ultimate Campaign for making specific items out of different base items or materials ( kind guidelines on pricing them), and an actual quote from James Jacobs regarding whether or not Celestial Armor gains its properties from magic or the material. It was the magic, implying that in an antimagic field the armor would become its original weight according to the CRB.
Ultimate Equipment even has an updated text for Celestial Armor which has no mention of coloration or material.
There really is no more questions as to whether or not the armor can be made, only if your specific DM would allow it.
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I know this topic is a year old, but I must put my two cents in. And through my research on the topic, I have concluded many things:
1. "Celestial" is neither a 'Special Ability' nor a 'Special Material.' It is just part of the armor's name.
Solars are the greatest type of angel, usually serving at the right hand of a deity or championing a cause that benefits an entire world or plane. A typical solar looks roughly human, though some physically resemble other humanoid races and a rare few have even more unusual forms. A solar stands about 9 feet tall and weighs about 500 pounds, with a strong, commanding voice that is impossible to ignore. Most have silvery or golden skin.
Those thinking "Celestial" armor is made of gold or silver metal, need to consider that "good" can make something gold or silver color. It does not need to be metal. Thus Mithral could become gold or silver in color while still being Mithral.
2. Both "Celestial Armor" & "Celestial Plate" are referenced in Paizo publications, so I don't understand why people keep calling them '3.5' items.
The Archives does a very good job of telling you if something is 3.5 or PF, and if it is PFS legal.
...Besides, I thought that everything from the 'Specific Magic' item lists weren't allowed to be customized, only enhanced.
You are allowed to customize everything with GM approval.
Customizing specific items is harder, because you need to determine the formula used before you can customize it, unless you are adding a flat cost customizing magic. Since Celestial does not line up exactly with known formulas, it is harder to customize.In my endeavors, I have come to the conclusion it is a +1 Bonus & + flat cost. Note that bonus w/extra flat cost is never less than an equivalent flat cost. If you wanted to make your armor +4 rather than +3, the bonus w/flat is more expensive. GM can't claim you are going for cheap here.
References:
Pathfinder #11 Curse of the Crimson Throne: Skeletons of Scarwall, p. 29
Pathfinder Ultimate Equipment, p. 125
Linkified.
... Seeing them all listed is hilarious. What's worse, every time one is dispelled, it reappears on the next page, because someone or another wanted to add their 2cp, and didn't read since page 1 first. Which I can't really blame, it's, what, 320 posts now? Still, seeing 1 & 3 flying about is disappointing, seeing as I posted the links to the items on page 1, 2, and 3 of the thread, and every time pointed out that the gold or silver flavour text has been removed since Ultimate Equipment came out.
Speaking of :
Though, as someone who supports the order of operations, I will say it's not that that it can't be made, or won't benefit from Mithral, it just won't become Light armour. In my opinion.
- Celestial Armour - PRD - Core Rulebook ; PRD - Ultimate Equipment ; Archives of Nethys
- Celestial Shield - PRD - Ultimate Equipment ; Archives of Nethys
- Celestial Plate - Archives of Nethys
Great links.
All three items are priced as though made of steel. Claiming other material means it costs the same as steel. There is no "celestial" material listed in the SRD, and "Celestial Mithral" is listed as 3pp.
To think of Mithral Celestial Full Plate as OP, you have to compare it to what is already out there.
1) "Sorcerers/Wizards love it." Clerics already cast in Celestial Full Plate. Druids already cast in Dragon Full Plate. Magus already cast in armor, and by the time they can afford it, cast in Full Plate. Letting Sorcerers/Wizards join the fun is not balance breaking.
2) "Rogues love it." They already have Mithral Breastplates and Celestial [chainmail] Armor. Letting them get a little more AC is not gamebreaking, especially on a class that many consider one of the weakest. Mithral Celestial Full Plate does not reward them that much, but might be considered OP if they can overcome the ACP for non-proficiency. But I don't think so. AC is one of the easiest things to overcome. A little extra does not make something OP.
/cevah
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So basically, all my confusion is because Paizo made a 3.5 module with "Pathfinder" printed on its cover and then placed said module on their site under "Pathfinder Adventure Paths?"
Cevah- I never new about that Archives of Nethys. Thanks for posting about it. And for linkifying my links.
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Billbo_Baggington, yes, your confusion is because you confuse "Pathfinder Adventure Path" with "Pathfinder RPG". The two are not the same thing.
Pathfinder Adventure Paths are either D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder RPG depending on the rules used in the module. CotCT was D&D 3.5. CotCT was not Pathfinder RPG.
Billbo_Baggington, yes, your confusion is because you confuse "Pathfinder Adventure Path" with "Pathfinder RPG". The two are not the same thing.
Pathfinder Adventure Paths are either D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder RPG depending on the rules used in the module. CotCT was D&D 3.5. CotCT was not Pathfinder RPG.
This.