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Um, sir. No where in the rules does it say that the words "treat as" don't mean that you treat the item in question as what it is to be treated as.
If you treat the armor as medium, then the armor counts as medium. It doesn't count as heavy for the sake of it being inconvenient.
Everywhere in the rules when it say "treated as if" it mean "treated as if" and not "it become".
Let's make an example where your reading will be disadvantageous:
Armored Defense (Ex): At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/— when wearing light armor, DR 8/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 12/— when wearing heavy armor. This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the armor master is stunned, unconscious, or helpless. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 3, and armor mastery.
Mithral say:
ost mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.
If we use our reading, the armor is "treated as" but its category don't change, a mithral full plate will give DR 12/- at level 19+, if we use it and translate "treated" as "become" it would provide DR 8/—.
Um, sir. No where in the rules does it say that the words "treat as" don't mean that you treat the item in question as what it is to be treated as.
If you treat the armor as medium, then the armor counts as medium. It doesn't count as heavy for the sake of it being inconvenient.
Mithral says it affects the armor type. The armor type is still heavy. It never says because it is treated as another type that you get to ignore the actual type. So even if this were a Pathfinder item we would still need dev input.
Now since both of us can say "the rules don't say what you claim" because they are not accounting for this situation you can't claim RAW support. Well you can, but there is no statement that says Mithral is working like you want it to work. Barring cases as definite as weapon focus adding a +1 to attacks, it is not as easy to prove RAW supports someone as they like to think it is.
PS: Sometimes the rules don't cover a situation until an FAQ or errata is made.
Um, sir. No where in the rules does it say that the words "treat as" don't mean that you treat the item in question as what it is to be treated as.
If you treat the armor as medium, then the armor counts as medium. It doesn't count as heavy for the sake of it being inconvenient.
Everywhere in the rules when it say "treated as if" it mean "treated as if" and not "it become".
Let's make an example where your reading will be disadvantageous:
Armored Defense (Ex): At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/— when wearing light armor, DR 8/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 12/— when wearing heavy armor. This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the armor master is stunned, unconscious, or helpless. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 3, and armor mastery.Mithral say:
ost mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.If we use our reading, the armor is "treated as" but its category don't change, a mithral full plate will give DR 12/- at level 19+, if we use it and translate "treated" as "become" it would provide DR 8/—.
Great point. Most tables would give the mithral "effective reduction", but keep the higher DR since the armor is actually still heavy armor.
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OK, I'm going to chime in here with a few things. I am mostly in the camp of "No, this shouldn't work" but I agree that mechanically a GM could allow it and follow certain rules to do so.
For the record there are two On-Line listings for Celestial Full Plate:
Archives of Nethys Version
D20PFSRD Version
The Archives of Nethys version is a straight reprint of the original 3.5 material in the original module it appeared in. The D20pfsrd version has been "corrected" but frankly since the d20pfsrd entry doesn't even factor in the cost of the original armor I am going to use the AoN version as correct.
MM, The Celestial enchantment modifies existing already crafted Mithral Plate.
First of all, I want to clarify that Clestial Plate is not already Mithral armor. We can tell this because of the relationship between crafting cost and retail price.
Magical Armor and Weapons operate under the principle that you must start with a piece of masterwork equipment (for which you must pay full price) and then apply enchantments to it. When crafting the item the cost for the enchantments is halved but the price for the base piece of gear is the same. If armor is mithral then the cost of mithral is a part of the base price, not the enchantment.
Masterwork Full Plate costs 1,650 gp.
Mithral Full Plate costs 10,500 gp.
With the original price of 28,650 gp, if the armor was made with steel armor the cost of the enchantment would be 27,000 (i.e. 28,650 - 1,650). This price would be halved for crafting, so the cost to craft the item would be 13,500 plus the base price of 1,650, for a total of 15,150 gp.
Were the item already mithral, the enchanting cost would be 28,650 - 10,500 = 18,150 gp. So the crafting cost to enchant Mithral Plate with this would be 9,075, and adding the base cost of 10,500 the total cost to craft the item would be 19,575 gp.
Looking in the AoN entry we see that the crafting cost is 15,150 gp, so the first formula is correct; Celestial Plate is crafted from ordinary steel masterwork plate.
As such it ought to be possible to craft celestial armor from another material, unless:
* The "celestial" enchantment only works on armor of a specific material, OR
* The "celestial" enchantment transmutes the armor into some kind of new material, nullifying any previous material properties.
At no point does the item entry actually explain how the enchantment works, so a GM who wished to deny the benefits of mithral celestial armor to a player could invoke one of these justifications. The second one seems logical since celestial armor is described as "bright silver" which certainly implies that the material has been transmuted in the enchantment process.
However, this by no means prevents a GM from allowing this armor to be made.
So what benefits would this grant? Let's look at the actual bonuses provided.
Regular Full Plate: Max Dex +1, ACP -6, Arcane Failure 35%.
Masterwork Full Plate: Max Dex +1, ACP -5, Arcane Failure 35%.
Mithral Full Plate: Max Dex +3, ACP -3, Arcane Failure 25%.
Celestial Full Plate: Max Dex +6, ACP -3, Arcane Failure 20%.
Since we use masterwork armor as a base for both mithral and magic armor, we see that:
Mithral Improves: Max Dex by 2, ACP by 2, Arcane Failure by 10%
Celestial Improves: Max Dex by 5, ACP by 2, Arcane Failure by 15%
So a Mithral Celestial Full Plate (assuming properties stack) would be:
Max Dex +8, ACP -1, Arcane Failure 10%.
As to whether the armor counts as light or medium, this is up to the GM as we are not shown how the celestial enchantment actually works. It could be read as turning the armor into medium, no matter what other properties there are (which is strictly RAW); or the GM could interpret it as making the armor one step lighter.
Game Balance:
From a balance perspective, this does present a problem, because the max dex penalty is higher than that of a mithral chain shirt, so a rogue could wear this, be able to move at full speed, and would suffer a -1 to his attacks due to not being proficient with medium armor. That -1 to attacks is balanced out by a net +5 in base armor bonus and an increase in Max Dex by +2, allowing for a net +7 to AC over what would normally be possible for a rogue.
Likewise a Wizard would also likely take such a piece of equipment too. It is cheaper than bracers of armor +8 and does a lot more. You could eat the 10% arcane failure, or you could take the arcane armor training feat since this will count as light armor.
There is a similar problem if we allow mithral to apply to regular Celestial Armor. In such a case the Max Dex goes to 10, the ACP to 0, and the arcane failure chance to 5%. Once again this looks like a downright amazing item for rogue-like characters and arcane full casters, and nearly eliminates any penalty to wearing such an item.
These balance issues would make me rule against such a combo in my games.
As a GM I don't want my players to look for loopholes to figure out how they can get around not having another classes' class features (like using armor). I want them to figure out ways that they can operate so they don't need them.
YMMV. But there are very strong reasons why this should not be allowed in most games.
Peet
and you don't 'treat' full plate with mithral. You make the original item as it.
Ignoring the fact that you have to apply Celestial to a pre-made mithral suit shoots down your 'treat Celestial armor with Mithral' argument right there.
When you apply things correctly (Celestial enchanting a suit of Mithral Full plate) it does not do what you want it to do.
==Aelryinth
Have to agree that the order of operations argument seems to be falling into the trap of starting with a conclusion (Mithril Celestial Plate should not be allowed) and then scrambling to find any RAW it can to justify said conclusion.
+1 Peet. I think you summed up my thoughts perfectly... (although, doesn't mithral drop ACP by 3, not 2, so you actually run into 0 ACP with the full plate version as well?)
The reason is that the -3 ACP benefit of Mithral armor includes the -1 benefit from having a suit of masterwork armor.
All magic armor starts as masterwork armor. So Celestial armor already includes this -1, and you cannot get that benefit twice.
Peet
So lemme get this straight.
Full Plate is heavy armor.
Mithral full plate treats it as medium, but it still counts as heavy.
When it becomes Celestial Plate, it becomes medium armor. What happens to the Mithral properties? They no longer apply because you already applied them before?
I 100% agree that this argument starts with its conclusion.
Granted, RAW doesn't give us anything about what the finished product should look like, it does give us the premise. How you choose to interpret it is up to the DM, but I know that if I had a DM who told me the line about Mithral not applying to it because of some semantics from old text not having the right language for the current edition, and he didn't tell me no because of game balance issues (which would be the real reason), I would be pretty upset
+1 Peet. I think you summed up my thoughts perfectly... (although, doesn't mithral drop ACP by 3, not 2, so you actually run into 0 ACP with the full plate version as well?)
You guys keep looking at the description for Celestial Plate and deciding that it is the description for "Celestial Enchantment" and that is leading to false conclusions about what the magic does. We don't know what the magic does, because it never tells us. We only know what 2 bits of armor that have had the magic applied to it ended up as.
At best, the arguments against this working RAW only prevent Celestial Plate from becoming light armor when made of Mithral, not the stat adjustments from Mithral being applied (which seems like a bigger problem to me). Although, using the 2 examples we have, the stats might be slightly less than just adding them together since celestial armor seems to roughly half the ACP and ASP, and celestial plate does the same. So maybe you end up halving the stats already reduced by Mithral. We can't say for sure, because they have not told us what the magical enhancement does.
1. That has been my main point against saying "RAW .....", which MM keeps citing.
2. Some of us have said "There is NO Celestial Enhancement". Which means there is no "celestial armor magic", which you mentioned in your next post.
You are making the mistake of grouping all of us together, which is why you keep applying thoughts to us as a group. Many of us think this should not work, but not everyone has the exact same argument as to why it does not work, so don't use "they".
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So lemme get this straight.
Full Plate is heavy armor.
Mithral full plate treats it as medium, but it still counts as heavy.
When it becomes Celestial Plate, it becomes medium armor. What happens to the Mithral properties? They no longer apply because you already applied them before?
I 100% agree that this argument starts with its conclusion.
Granted, RAW doesn't give us anything about what the finished product should look like, it does give us the premise. How you choose to interpret it is up to the DM, but I know that if I had a DM who told me the line about Mithral not applying to it because of some semantics from old text not having the right language for the current edition, and he didn't tell me no because of game balance issues (which would be the real reason), I would be pretty upset
Again, you're being selective.
The reason is because Celestial doesn't LOWER ACP, LOWER Armor Type, RAISE Max Dex, or LOWER spell failure.
It SETS THEM TO THAT NUMBER.
That's very, very important. It's one of the weaknesses of magic in that you don't 'infer' what it is doing, you watch what it does.
Yes, you can break Celestial down into mechanical benefits of + this and - that, and if that was the case Mithral would work without a problem.
But that's not what it does. What it does is say "This number is now THIS number." Regardless of what that previous number was. It's NOT A +/- TEMPLATE.
I would be the first to jump on your bandwagon if Celestial said "It raises the Max Dex of the Armor by +4, takes 15% off the spell penalty, and reduces ACP by 4" (Or whatever the proper numbers would be).
But it does not DO that. What it does is SETS Max to +5, ACP to -1, and Spell Failure to 15%. It doesn't add or subtract anything...that's all us doing math which Celestial isn't doing.
It's that difference in application that makes Order of Operations all important.
IF you could turn a suit of Celestial Plate Mail INTO Mithral, then all Mithral's modifers would apply, because they are numeric +/-'s, and mithral would be modifying Celestial Armor, instead of the base stats of full plate.
But in this case, Mithral's bonuses are being applied first to the stats of what would be a suit of normal Plate armor. Celestial, when applied to that suit of mithral armor, completely supersedes Mithral's numbers and effectively negates most benefits of being Mithral by doing so.
So, Order of operations isn't 'conclusion, then justify it'. It's all important to rules governing these two effects working together. Everyone who is saying this doesn't work will back you up if you find some way to transform a non-mithral set into Mithral (using a Wish or something), which will then properly apply a template.
Until then...no, Mithral Celestial Armor doesn't have much effect on anything (I think it still reduces weight by half?).
So, unless you rewrite Celestial as applying a template with bonuses, you're out of luck with the 'no' crowd. And since we're using RAW, that's not going to happen.
==Aelryinth
So, what happens if you cast transmute metal to wood on celestial plate armor, then cast polymorph any object to make the wood into darkwood? Darkwood's not on the list of materials it can't make and "great intrinsic value" isn't clearly defined.
An aside, I am pretty sure that RAI would imply that the Mithral properties would be retained, since flavor text on specific items by default never changes.
Another example would be making a Sunblade out of something other than a bastard sword, doable by RAW, but under this interpretation would never yield any results other than bastard sword damage.
Again, my interpretation of RAI comes from looking at the case of all three Celestial items, and comparing the results. In all cases, the weight is cut in half, the material is not changed, and the statistics improve dramatically. I am in no way claiming this is RAW, because all the evidence is circumstantial, but I know how I rule the armor working after looking into the texts of each one.
So, what happens if you cast transmute metal to wood on celestial plate armor, then cast polymorph any object to make the wood into darkwood? Darkwood's not on the list of materials it can't make and "great intrinsic value" isn't clearly defined.
It'd temporarily turn into pieces of wood, which would inflict the wood template on the plate, since it occurred after Celestial enhancement. Darkwood is considered a special material of high intrinsic net worth and it's GM fiat, but you probably couldn't do that, anymore then you could turn it in mithril.
I put (still reduces weight?) in parentheses because I didn't remember if Celestial Plate reduced weight, and if it was more or less then mithral did. I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't raise the weight of the mail if the former. Since Celestial Plate is better it would supercede the mithral again.
Having a sun blade non-bastard sword is just a case of modifying the core item. The problem here is that modifying Mithral is superseded by the Celestial since they cover the same areas, whereas the only dicey effect of the Sun Blade is somehow treating a Flail as a Short sword.
It basically comes down to Celestial enhancement doing the same thing but better then Mithral can...which I'm fine with. I liken it to magical enhancements exceeding masterwork.
==Aelryinth
So, what happens if you cast transmute metal to wood on celestial plate armor, then cast polymorph any object to make the wood into darkwood? Darkwood's not on the list of materials it can't make and "great intrinsic value" isn't clearly defined.It'd temporarily turn into pieces of wood, which would inflict the wood template on the plate, since it occurred after Celestial enhancement. Darkwood is considered a special material of high intrinsic net worth and it's GM fiat, but you probably couldn't do that, anymore then you could turn it in mithril.
I put (still reduces weight?) in parentheses because I didn't remember if Celestial Plate reduced weight, and if it was more or less then mithral did. I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't raise the weight of the mail if the former. Since Celestial Plate is better it would supercede the mithral again.
Having a sun blade non-bastard sword is just a case of modifying the core item. The problem here is that modifying Mithral is superseded by the Celestial since they cover the same areas, whereas the only dicey effect of the Sun Blade is somehow treating a Flail as a Short sword.
It basically comes down to Celestial enhancement doing the same thing but better then Mithral can...which I'm fine with. I liken it to magical enhancements exceeding masterwork.
==Aelryinth
NOOOO! That is literally the exact same argument I made for Mithral celestial plate because the adjustments for Celestial Plate affect the base item and the Mithral statistics also affect the base item.
The problem you keep having is that you keep treating Celestial Plate as an "adjustment that affects the base item". Nowhere in the rules for Celestial Plate Armor does it state the words 'adjustment' or 'base item'.
Mithral has adjustments for a base item while Celestial Plate Armor effectively replaces stats, it does not adjust them. If it adjusted them then Celestial could be applied to non-Plate Armor, which it cannot because there are no adjustment stats.
It can't replace the stats and also be an adjustment on the stats. That is the point, either it is an adjustment, or it replaces the base stats.
Per the strict interpretation of RAW being heralded as correct by the "no" crowd, it would seem that the armor has it's stats replaced with the new base. Mithral's rules always adjust the base.
If that is not the interpretation, could someone please explain it to me?
And since they are set items, we coukd not actually change them and put celestial on something because we dont know what exactly it changes per se?
It can't replace the stats and also be an adjustment on the stats. That is the point, either it is an adjustment, or it replaces the base stats.
Per the strict interpretation of RAW being heralded as correct by the "no" crowd, it would seem that the armor has it's stats replaced with the new base. Mithral's rules always adjust the base.If that is not the interpretation, could someone please explain it to me?
It's a special material. Plain enough.
Can you put celestial upon adamantine full plate? To get :
An armour of 25 pounds, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
With a hardness of 20 and a 1/3 more hit points and a /3 damage reduction?
Almost everyone would say no. Somehow mitral does? I don't think so. It's wrong any way you look at it.
It can't replace the stats and also be an adjustment on the stats. That is the point, either it is an adjustment, or it replaces the base stats.
Per the strict interpretation of RAW being heralded as correct by the "no" crowd, it would seem that the armor has it's stats replaced with the new base. Mithral's rules always adjust the base.If that is not the interpretation, could someone please explain it to me?
It's a special material. Plain enough.
Can you put celestial upon adamantine full plate? To get :
An armour of 25 pounds, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
With a hardness of 20 and a 1/3 more hit points and a /3 damage reduction?
Almost everyone would say no. Somehow mitral does? I don't think so. It's wrong any way you look at it.
How is it a material? It is a magic property, they even give you what you need to craft it.
And yes, Celestial Adamantine Full Plate is perfectly doable and has basically no grey area outside of modifying a specific magic item.
If it's a special material, then there are rules for that. That no two can overlap. It's either a special material or an enchantment.
What is the enchantment? Which enchantment gives things lower weight, highest ability to be nimble, lowest spell failure? What is the bonus of said enchantment? Is it a +3 enchantment?
What is the enchantment? Which enchantment gives things lower weight, highest ability to be nimble, lowest spell failure? What is the bonus of said enchantment? Is it a +3 enchantment?Read the rules. Conveniently, I posted them only a few posts above this one.
When you're altering specific magic items you have to decide what is a +x enhancement and what is a GP enhancement. Clearly, the armor is +3 so we know it has that. The rest of the abilities don't have a clear equivalent so the easiest thing to do is to make them a GP enhancement at the cost of 14,350, since +3 full plate is 10,650.
Now that you have these two numbers, you can easily modify the Celestial Plate Armor to your own desires, as long as your DM is fine with it.
But you can't go against things that are against the rules like have two materials. Only the dominant material is valid. What does the magical modification isn't about altering the material when it changes weight, dexterity enhancement and spell failure?
I was with Marshmallow on the applying of mithral (I considered it still medium armour), until Guass spelled it out like that. I must side with the "celestial plate doesn't care about base materials" camp now.
Um, sir. No where in the rules does it say that the words "treat as" don't mean that you treat the item in question as what it is to be treated as.
If you treat the armor as medium, then the armor counts as medium. It doesn't count as heavy for the sake of it being inconvenient.
Everywhere in the rules when it say "treated as if" it mean "treated as if" and not "it become".
Let's make an example where your reading will be disadvantageous:
Armored Defense (Ex): At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/— when wearing light armor, DR 8/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 12/— when wearing heavy armor. This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the armor master is stunned, unconscious, or helpless. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 3, and armor mastery.Mithral say:
ost mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.If we use our reading, the armor is "treated as" but its category don't change, a mithral full plate will give DR 12/- at level 19+, if we use it and translate "treated" as "become" it would provide DR 8/—.
MM what is your reply to DR's post.
But you can't go against things that are against the rules like have two materials. Only the dominant material is valid. What does the magical modification isn't about altering the material when it changes weight, dexterity enhancement and spell failure?What is the enchantment? Which enchantment gives things lower weight, highest ability to be nimble, lowest spell failure? What is the bonus of said enchantment? Is it a +3 enchantment?Read the rules. Conveniently, I posted them only a few posts above this one.
When you're altering specific magic items you have to decide what is a +x enhancement and what is a GP enhancement. Clearly, the armor is +3 so we know it has that. The rest of the abilities don't have a clear equivalent so the easiest thing to do is to make them a GP enhancement at the cost of 14,350, since +3 full plate is 10,650.
Now that you have these two numbers, you can easily modify the Celestial Plate Armor to your own desires, as long as your DM is fine with it.
This wouldn't be the first magical property that does such a thing. 3.5 had Nimble and Twilight. In Ultimate Psionics there is a property called Fusing which does all of that.
It is very clear that Celestial isn't just another special material. It has actual requirements to be made.
If it were just a special material, you wouldn't have...Celestial Plate Armor
Aura faint transmutation (good); CL 8th
Slot armor; Price 25,000 gp; Weight 25 lbs.
DESCRIPTIONCelestial plate armor is a sturdier version of the standard celestial armor.
This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
CONSTRUCTIONRequirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good; Cost 12,500 gp
Not sure your question. It has special requirements. It's gold/silver (thought to be divine because of it's "purity") that is imbued by a lawful good god to make it celestial. The maker needs to be good.
If it's an enchantment there needs to be a cost.
If it's a material than there is rules. To me it is clearly a material given it's dex, nimbleness, and spell failure.
It either can be one or the other. Not just a "magic".
Not sure your question. It has special requirements. It's gold/silver (thought to be divine because of it's "purity") that is imbued by a lawful good god to make it celestial. The maker needs to be good.
If it's an enchantment there needs to be a cost.
If it's a material than there is rules.It either can be one or the other. Not just a "magic".
There is no question. I'm flat out saying that it is an enchantment. We have the rules on modifying specific magic items. We have rules for enchantments that are either +x equivalent or +GP equivalent.
The +x equivalent is the +3. The +GP equivalent is every other bit of magic in it. We have a breakdown as such:
Full Plate - 1,500
Masterwork - 150
+3 Enhancement - 9,000
Total - 10,650The price of the item is 25,000. 25,000 minus 10,650 equals 14,350. Therefore, the price for Fly 1/day, +5 Max Dex, and -15% ASF is 14,350.
It is unquestionably not a special material and is an enchantment with a cost of 14,350 GP.
How can you say this when it has a weight, max dex, armour check penalty, and spell failure like any other armour. Unquestionably is an odd word to use.
You now found out how much the material cost is just like with adamantine or mithral.
How can you say this when it has a weight, max dex, armour check penalty, and spell failure like any other armour. Unquestionably is an odd word to use.
You now found out how much the material cost is just like with adamantine or mithral.
Do magic armors not have weight, max dex, acp, or asf? Every single armor in the game has those. There are magic properties which affect all of those. I'm really not sure what you're getting at with this.
I've broken down the costs for you for the "Celestial" property. It is not a special material as special materials don't require you to have anything to forge them.
Nope, can't find an enchantment or "magic" to reduce the spell failure. How about increase max Dex, or even decrease weight.
Spell resistance, energy resistance, etc...sure... But nothing that reduces max dex, weight or even armour check penalty for cash.
I find special materials that does that though.
Nope, can't find an enchantment or "magic" to reduce the spell failure. How about increase max Dex, or even decrease weight.
Spell resistance, energy resistance, etc...sure... But nothing that reduces max dex, weight or even armour check penalty for cash.
I find special materials that does that though.
You're not looking hard enough, then.
Fusing
A suit of armor or a shield granted this ability melds with its wearer when the appropriate command word is given, seamlessly fusing with the wearer’s form. The Armor Check Penalty of the armor is reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 0), the Maximum Dexterity Bonus is increased by 1, any arcane spell failure is reduced by 10%, and the armor is treated as if one category lighter for movement restrictions. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. For example, a character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. These modifications are in addition to any changes from special materials, but do not stack with effects such as that from graft armor.
Aura Strong psychometabolism; ML 4th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, float; Price +2 bonus.
There is also the Nimbleness quality, to increase Max Dex, on page 13 of the Magic Item Compendium and the Twilight quality, to decrease ASF, on page 15 of the same book.
The only thing I can't find a property for is weight. There is, however, the spell Lighten Object which flat out reduces an item's weight by half.
Fusing is an enhancement bonus of +2. And is from Dreamscarred Press, a 3rd party material.
So what enhancement should there be for all those bonuses of Celestial Plate? Should it be a +4 or +5 bonus to do all the things celestial armour does? Perhaps it doesn't compute with the numbers. The only thing that computes with the numbers is a special material.
MM what is your reply to DR's post.Um, sir. No where in the rules does it say that the words "treat as" don't mean that you treat the item in question as what it is to be treated as.
If you treat the armor as medium, then the armor counts as medium. It doesn't count as heavy for the sake of it being inconvenient.
Everywhere in the rules when it say "treated as if" it mean "treated as if" and not "it become".
Let's make an example where your reading will be disadvantageous:
Armored Defense (Ex): At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/— when wearing light armor, DR 8/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 12/— when wearing heavy armor. This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the armor master is stunned, unconscious, or helpless. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 3, and armor mastery.Mithral say:
ost mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.If we use our reading, the armor is "treated as" but its category don't change, a mithral full plate will give DR 12/- at level 19+, if we use it and translate "treated" as "become" it would provide DR 8/—.
Where in the rules does it say "treat as" doesn't mean "treat as?"
If the armor is treated as medium, then the armor is treated as medium. The rules are pretty clear on that. Where is this rule that armors that are treated as lighter aren't treated as lighter armors?
Fusing is an enhancement bonus of +2. And is from Dreamscarred Press, a 3rd party material.A 3rd party material that Paizo has said is how they would do Psionics if they put them into the game.
So what enhancement should there be for all those bonuses of Celestial Plate? Should it be a +4 or +5 bonus to do all the things celestial armour does? Perhaps it doesn't compute with the numbers. The only thing that computes with the numbers is a special material.It doesn't have a straight enhancement bonus, I've already been over this. It is an enhancement that purely costs gold to add on, and yes these do exist before you even ask.
Where is it and how much does it cost in gold to make Full Plate have 15% less Arcane Spell Resistance and one lighter Armour and +5 Dex? A mere 14k gp?
So for a mere 28k by your rules we should be able to get 30% less Arcane Spell Resistance, 2 lighter armour and +10 Dex and a quarter weight.
OK. Makes sense now.
Or we could just go it's a special material like mithral and is lighter and less restrictive at a certain level.
The price of the item is 25,000. 25,000 minus 10,650 equals 14,350. Therefore, the price for Fly 1/day, +5 Max Dex, and -15% ASF is 14,350.
You are using the d20pfsrd price here, which according to the sidebar has been "adjusted" according to the thoughts of the people on the website. However their calculations do not include the base cost of the armor (you can tell this by looking at the crafting cost which is exactly half of the retail price - if it included the base armor it would be more). For this reason I believe that their calculations are wrong.
I would recommend looking at the entry under the Archives of Nethys, which has a direct copy of the original printed material. There the price is 28,650 gp. Looking at the crafting cost shows that it includes 1,650 for the full plate, which is correct.
Peet
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Also, As Marshmallow pointed out when someone first brought up the idea that the magic for Celestial Plate turns the target armor specifically into Medium armor, and doesn't drop the weight class of the armor. You could then just apply the Celestial Armor magic to Plate armor instead of chainmail and end up with full plate as light armor. If you claim it works one way for one of them, then it works that way for the other, and honestly, that is FAR more broken than what we have been suggesting...
In truth, its obviously more likely that there is one magic that drops the armor by a weight category. What else, specifically, it does, is a bit muddy, but it does alter the armors "similarly". Ultimately, still, we just don't know. Until Paizo says something, we can't know for sure.
"You could then just apply the Celestial Armor magic to Plate armor instead of chainmail and end up with full plate as light armor." I suppose you mean breastplate, as there isn't something called "plate armor" in the game.
But a celestial breastplate is simply a reskinned Celestial armor using a breastplate instead of a chain mail.
Abut your claim that there isn't a "celestial armor" enchantment. Very well, if the reduction in encumbrance isn't determined by an enchantment it is determined by special materials, so you can't apply another special material to that armor. Simple, don't you think?
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+1 Peet. I think you summed up my thoughts perfectly... (although, doesn't mithral drop ACP by 3, not 2, so you actually run into 0 ACP with the full plate version as well?)The reason is that the -3 ACP benefit of Mithral armor includes the -1 benefit from having a suit of masterwork armor.
All magic armor starts as masterwork armor. So Celestial armor already includes this -1, and you cannot get that benefit twice.
Peet
Good catch Peet! Totally forgot the masterwork quality being provided twice. So Mithril Celestial Armor would drop to a 0 and Mithril Celestial Plate would drop to a -1 and you could grab a trait to hit 0 with it if you were planning this.
About Balance:
This being more optimal for rogues is kinda true. Celestial Armor already exists for rogues and Mithril Celestial Plate is only slightly better than that armor providing +3 AC, -1 ACP, -5% ASF. It also costs about 13,000 gp more for the mithril Plate over the regular Celestial armor. Sure that sort of money doesn't matter when you're level 20, but at level 11 that's almost 50% of your characters WBL and likely you wouldn't afford it for a couple levels or even find it as I don't know what store you're buying a 35k suit of Mithril Celestial Plate from so you're waiting on a GM drop. Celestial Armor at level 11 is just over a quarter of your WBL to almost the same benefit. With that extra money you could be buying items to get the other benefits that matter.
About wizards taking it and grabbing Arcane Armor Training the wizard would also have to spend a feat or dip a level to get Light Armor Proficiency which is a prerequisite for the former. A wizard could also use their traits on Armor Expert (Combat) and Armor Master (Regional) and still buy a suit of Celestial Armor only they now need to spend more feats (Or a single level dip) to grab Arcane Armor Training feat line and armor proficiencies. Arcane Armor Training also uses up a swift action which...
Mithral don't change the proficiency needed to use the armor. It will stay a medium armor for that and for arcane armor training.
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It can't replace the stats and also be an adjustment on the stats. That is the point, either it is an adjustment, or it replaces the base stats.
Per the strict interpretation of RAW being heralded as correct by the "no" crowd, it would seem that the armor has it's stats replaced with the new base. Mithral's rules always adjust the base.If that is not the interpretation, could someone please explain it to me?
It has been explained several times, but you don't want to hear:
- the mithral adjustment is made during crafting.- the enchantment adjustment effect is applied when enchanting something that happen at the end of crafting, not before.
You can't enchant a piece of mithral with armor enhancements before turning it into an armor.
As it was said several times, the order of the operations matter.
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Fusing is an enhancement bonus of +2. And is from Dreamscarred Press, a 3rd party material.A 3rd party material that Paizo has said is how they would do Psionics if they put them into the game.
Actually it is a 3rd party material that Paizo has said is how they wouldn't do Psionics if they put them into the game.
...My personal preference would be, of course, to build psionic characters VERY similar to how the sorcerer or the bard works for the power users, or the barbarian for how the soulblade non-power users work. Spell slots and "psionic powers" (instead of rage powers). Then the actual mechanics work fine, and we don't have the concerns about psionic characters being able to nova and make the core classes feel lame.
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Dreamscarred Press knows a LOT about psionics, and I really hope that they're able to pull off a Pathfinder version of the rules, but they won't be "official." I would rather let them do their thing without involving a Paizo series of approvals and the like, since what Paizo wants from psionic rules is unlikely to be what Dreamscarred Press wants. Furthermore, it's kind of against the whole point of the OGL movement to micromanage other products by other companies.
So while I am stoked that Dreamscarred is doing this, I am not interested in making them "official" for Pathfinder.
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When and if we do something with Vudra will have to wait for us to decide when and if we ever want to do something with psychic magic. If we do, then it waits until after that's done. If we don't we may or may not use Dreamscarred's psioncs rules... but frankly, as much as I don't like the power point method and the fact that it basically forces the player and the GM to learn a new system in order to do effects in the game that would already be covered by existing methods of using magic... I doubt we'll use those rules. We'll see.
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We already have a functional system for handling magic, which is what psionics would be in a Paizo psionics book. That means psionics would be handled just like spells. Probably a lot like how spontaneous casters work.
This is, of course, a HUGE departure from how psionics have worked in the past, and that's one reason we're so hesitant about doing much with psionics.
Fortunately, the game's open. And that means folks like the ones at Dreamscarred can step in and do some good work on psionics instead.
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I think that the Creative director opinion has a lot of weight in this matter.
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There is nothing in the rules for crafting magic items or for changing the material of magic items that even brings up order of operations. Literally nothing. If there was, one of you guys would have posted it in the last 3 pages you have been claiming it.
You can enchant a piece of mithra before it is made into an armor?
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled.
Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value.
Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.
The rules are clear: you need the armor or its pieces before enchanting it. You can't enchant a piece of mithral with armor powers and then make it into armor.
MM what is your reply to DR's post.Um, sir. No where in the rules does it say that the words "treat as" don't mean that you treat the item in question as what it is to be treated as.
If you treat the armor as medium, then the armor counts as medium. It doesn't count as heavy for the sake of it being inconvenient.
Everywhere in the rules when it say "treated as if" it mean "treated as if" and not "it become".
Let's make an example where your reading will be disadvantageous:
Armored Defense (Ex): At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/— when wearing light armor, DR 8/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 12/— when wearing heavy armor. This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the armor master is stunned, unconscious, or helpless. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 3, and armor mastery.Mithral say:
ost mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.If we use our reading, the armor is "treated as" but its category don't change, a mithral full plate will give DR 12/- at level 19+, if we use it and translate "treated" as "become" it would provide DR 8/—.
Where in the rules does it say "treat as" doesn't mean "treat as?"
If the armor is treated as medium, then the armor is treated as medium. The rules are pretty clear on that. Where is this rule that armors that are treated as lighter aren't treated as lighter armors?
You did not answer the question. All you had to say was you would give it DR 8 or DR 12.
Should I take this as you saying it has DR 8?