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I admit a lot of the fun of the Binder came from some homebrew Vestiges folks put up over on the WOTC forums. I wish I'd saved that thread, but it was huge.
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Psionics were notoriously broken as a system. Not necessarily game-breaking as a whole, though; the Psion was right-out Silver-Age-Superman overpowered, but the Soulknife was more manageable, while I recall the Wilder being all but useless. The rules for how Psionics worked were all over the place (literally and figuratively - important info for psionic point limits were no-where near the description of how to use PP, for instance), self-contradictory, there were disparities both among devs and among players whether magic and psionics interacted or not, etc....
Instead, they leave those endeavors up to third party groups, such as how Dreamscarred put out Ultimate Psionics - that way, Pathfinder players can have their Psionics if they want it, and Paizo could say "not our fault" if it proved totally overpowered (which, thankfully, it seems like it hasn't).
Yeah you clearly didn't actually use 3.5 psionics if you have both of these points in the same post. Dreamscarred Press's psion was almost identical to the 3.5 psion. Both of them are less broken than the wizard by a large margin, but still a bit problematic like a sorcerer. Also the limit on PP per power was right at the beginning of the section of how to use powers, how is that out of place? It's the same functional place as information on concentration checks is compared to spells in the core book.
Yep, but compare bloat and usability if you only use 5 books from 3.5. ;)
That is how I've done it, and how others I know and play with have done it. The simple and clean 3.5 rules, with a dab of extra content (sometimes 2 books extra, sometimes 4, sometimes you change which books are used for which game) seasoned with some house rules that make sense for all involved. So much better than pathfinder's rush to bloat, and pf dms I know are seeing this as well (and getting tired of new classes they have to learn and challenge). Of course I make omelettes to my taste.
Except one could argue also that 3.5 and WoTC were notorious for nickle and diming you if you will... I mean, you had to buy at least 3 books just to start playing the stupid game (The Player's handbook, the DM's handbook, and the Monster Manual)
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You do know that you're not obligated to use EVERYTING a gaming company churns out?
There is no such thing as bloat. Just people who don't want to put their foot down.
Now you and I both know that is not true! After all, I am pretty certain I have heard that if you try and ban the Gunslinger, SKR and JJ will bust through your roof and put a gun to your head!
What Pathfinder has yet to do as much that 3.5 did is create classes based on 'entirely new' subsystems. 3.5 had invocations, incarnum, psionics, martial maneuvers, binding, ect. Pathfinder as of yet seems skittish of such mechanics.Off the very top of my head: Hexes and Grit
Grit/Ki/Arcana Pool/Exploit Pool/(insert pool point mechanic here) tend to all operate more or less the same way. The big difference betweent hem though is just how many you get. And they are pretty well self contained within the class.
Hexes, while new, are pretty well supported. They are not like many of 3.5 material where the only support comes from teh book they are in.
A Big example of how 3.5 suffered from this problem is:
Spell lists that never grew (like Hexcrafter or Warmage)
Incarnum
All the systems from ToM
All the systems in Bo9S
Psionics
Warlock Invocations
Dragonfire Adept Invocations
ect.
It felt like WotC made things and immediately forgot about them alot.
What Pathfinder has yet to do as much that 3.5 did is create classes based on 'entirely new' subsystems. 3.5 had invocations, incarnum, psionics, martial maneuvers, binding, ect. Pathfinder as of yet seems skittish of such mechanics.Off the very top of my head: Hexes and GritGrit/Ki/Arcana Pool/Exploit Pool/(insert pool point mechanic here) tend to all operate more or less the same way. The big difference betweent hem though is just how many you get. And they are pretty well self contained within the class.
Hexes, while new, are pretty well supported. They are not like many of 3.5 material where the only support comes from teh book they are in.
A Big example of how 3.5 suffered from this problem is:
Spell lists that never grew (like Hexcrafter or Warmage)
Incarnum
All the systems from ToM
All the systems in Bo9S
Psionics
Warlock Invocations
Dragonfire Adept Invocations
ect.It felt like WotC made things and immediately forgot about them alot.
Psionics had a whole hardcover supplemental book, Complete Psionics.
I believe there are more warlock invocations in Fiendish Codex II Devils.More TOM Binder vestiges showed up in both web enhancements and dragon magazine I believe.
Weren't Incarnum, Bo9S, and Dragon Magic fairly near the end of 3.5?
They were rather close yes, especially Bo9S. Incarnum pretty much got dropped completely after that book, except for showing up in Magic Item Compendium. Dragon Magic stuff made a couple of appearances in Complete Mage. That's about it.
Except one could argue also that 3.5 and WoTC were notorious for nickle and diming you if you will... I mean, you had to buy at least 3 books just to start playing the stupid game (The Player's handbook, the DM's handbook, and the Monster Manual)
Why? Players only really needed the PHB.
Psionics had a whole hardcover supplemental book, Complete Psionics.
The feats, especially, were really terrible, varying from incomprehensible to copy-and-paste. That book was almost a complete waste of time.
They were rather close yes, especially Bo9S. Incarnum pretty much got dropped completely after that book, except for showing up in Magic Item Compendium. Dragon Magic stuff made a couple of appearances in Complete Mage. That's about it.
Incarnum made a few more appearances toward the end of 3.5's life cycle. Dragon Magic had a slew of new Dragonblood-specific Soulmelds, and there were a couple of web articles with new Soulmelds as well.
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Except one could argue also that 3.5 and WoTC were notorious for nickle and diming you if you will... I mean, you had to buy at least 3 books just to start playing the stupid game (The Player's handbook, the DM's handbook, and the Monster Manual)Yep, but compare bloat and usability if you only use 5 books from 3.5. ;)
That is how I've done it, and how others I know and play with have done it. The simple and clean 3.5 rules, with a dab of extra content (sometimes 2 books extra, sometimes 4, sometimes you change which books are used for which game) seasoned with some house rules that make sense for all involved. So much better than pathfinder's rush to bloat, and pf dms I know are seeing this as well (and getting tired of new classes they have to learn and challenge). Of course I make omelettes to my taste.
3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM; $35 each, so $105 total(before tax).
PF CRB($50) and Bestiary($40), $90 total.
I didn't think $15 for a whole other book was that big of a deal.
Besides, players weren't really supposed to be using the DMG(or MM and now Bestiary, for that matter) So if you were just a player, all you needed was the PHB($35), as opposed to playing in Pathfinder needing the CRB($50). DM's of course needed more books, but that's sort of part of being a DM.
But, now we're just splitting hairs.
Except one could argue also that 3.5 and WoTC were notorious for nickle and diming you if you will... I mean, you had to buy at least 3 books just to start playing the stupid game (The Player's handbook, the DM's handbook, and the Monster Manual)Yep, but compare bloat and usability if you only use 5 books from 3.5. ;)
That is how I've done it, and how others I know and play with have done it. The simple and clean 3.5 rules, with a dab of extra content (sometimes 2 books extra, sometimes 4, sometimes you change which books are used for which game) seasoned with some house rules that make sense for all involved. So much better than pathfinder's rush to bloat, and pf dms I know are seeing this as well (and getting tired of new classes they have to learn and challenge). Of course I make omelettes to my taste.
3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM; $35 each, so $105 total(before tax).
PF CRB($50) and Bestiary($40), $90 total.
I didn't think $15 for a whole other book was that big of a deal.
Besides, players weren't really supposed to be using the DMG(or MM and now Bestiary, for that matter) So if you were just a player, all you needed was the PHB($35), as opposed to playing in Pathfinder needing the CRB($50). DM's of course needed more books, but that's sort of part of being a DM.
But, now we're just splitting hairs.
Um ... Have you inflation adjusted those figures? 'Cause taking that into account your $105 is more like $135. Meaning $45 not $15.
And that PHB is more like $45 in modern dollars, not $35. You can't use costs from more than a decade apart with no invocation of inflation.
Ok, so I guess we ARE going to split hairs. In that case, I can go to any number of other websites and buy used versions of all of the above books combined, for less than the price of any one of them new.
3.5e came out in 2003, and Pathfinder came out in 2009. Hardly a "decade apart."
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The notion that there's only one GM in a given group of players has always struck me as exceedingly odd.
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^^^
In my groups often times it rotates around as to who is GMing and who is Playing. And often, I know more than a few people who bought all three books just for the sake of having all three so that they knew ALL the rules and used them accordingly, even as a player.
Even in pathfinder, how often do you see a person only look at the "player stuff" and NOT learn the "GM stuff" like skill DCs, terrain rules, ect?
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It certainly can make things easier on the GM, if the player knows what they need to do to succeed! Time saver!
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Oh yeah. It is always awesome when I don't need to tell my party basic DCs for things because they all know them (like DCs for climbing things and such)
The CRB is massive, though. The 5E books are much easier to handle (though I certainly feel your pain)!
Which is why I love Paizo's "by Chapter" PDF option.
There's not a lot of reason for the CRB to be as big as it is.
Well... There's a reason frozen in time, that is to say, when Pathfinder was initially transitioning all the rules over from 3.5 it made sense to pull over as much as they could.
But even heavy users don't really access 60% of the material in the book. And another 10% could be streamlined or revised entirely out of existence.
Those numbers are made up. But I really do feel this is at least somewhat true.
The Beginner Box contains most of the essential rules for play, and if you were to add the missing rules, with an editorial eye, it probably wouldn't amount to another hundred pages.
The CRB is the only file I have been tempted to get by chapter. I have too many PDFs already.
I've gotten it that way for some of the other rulebooks. Ultimate Campaign, off the top of my head.