I thought you did, but now that I'm looking at the rules in the Magic chapter for components, and the Combat chapter under grappling, I can find no such rule saying it has to be in your hand, much less manipulated.
The first page of the magic chapter in the CRB says:
... and manipulate the material components or focus (if any).
So you could hold the component in your teeth?
Clearly the intent is that the caster wave the bat guano (or whatever) around in a semantic and meaningful way. However, "manipulate" could mean any number of things.
Why wouldn't they have it mentioned under Material Components? The way it reads, it doesn't even sound like you need to take them out of the pouch.
RD I will assume you are NOT really asking this, but you are just pointing out an issue with RAW as you like to do sometimes. However, you really need to state when you are REALLY asking a question as opposed to just presenting a thought exercise.
Why wouldn't they have it mentioned under Material Components? The way it reads, it doesn't even sound like you need to take them out of the pouch.
It is no secret that the book is not organized as well as it could be.
|
Actually there are times in which I fell that this question is a valid one. There is a lot of hand waving about the use of material components and focuses.
I am a magus with my one handed weapon in one hand and I want to use spell combat to cast fireball.
1 hand for the weapon
1 hand for manipulating the material components
1 hand for the somatic components.
I seem that I am lacking a hand.
Where is written that I can manipulate the material components and make the somatic gestures with the same hand? manipulating something don't seem to be the same thins as making "measured and precise movement of the hand" and having some material component in my hand don't seem to conform to "You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component."
Some material component is very bulky.
Take Fabricate:
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
So the material component can be "up to 10 cu. ft./level" of materials, as the target of the spell is, at the same time, the material component.
Exactly who can manipulate up to 200' cubic feet of material? Especially when that material can be something made by multiple , separated pieces, like 20 cubic feet of metal ingots or 200 cubic feet of fleece?
Unless we use a very loose definition of "manipulate", no one can do that.
I am sure fabricate causes problems with other things also. of course it could be ruled that certain things can't be created. The intent is clear even if it won't make sense at times. If we want to use real world limitations all of those material components won't fit into a spell component pouch.
|
|
I am sure fabricate causes problems with other things also. of course it could be ruled that certain things can't be created. The intent is clear even if it won't make sense at times. If we want to use real world limitations all of those material components won't fit into a spell component pouch.
They fall under expensive stuff.
I can have 20 cubic feet of pyrite and cast fabricate to get iron an sulfur. Both th starting mineral and the end product have a value, so thy aren't part of the normal content of a spell component pouch
I am sure fabricate causes problems with other things also. of course it could be ruled that certain things can't be created. The intent is clear even if it won't make sense at times. If we want to use real world limitations all of those material components won't fit into a spell component pouch.They fall under expensive stuff.
I can have 20 cubic feet of pyrite and cast fabricate to get iron an sulfur. Both th starting mineral and the end product have a value, so thy aren't part of the normal content of a spell component pouch
I was not talking about the spell fabricate when I mentioned the pouch. I was say the things that are less than 1 gp that are in the pouch by the rules.
My point was that if you want to argue that X can't fit in my hand so it might mean I don't have to hold material components because I could not do so in real life, then you have to account for the spell component pouch not being able to hold the component for every spell possible that a wizard could have in his book and that is before they actually get every spell. Yes, I know that is not normal, but it has been possible in AP's by looting various wizards after killing them.
Yes I am also saying fabricate probably does not work by RAW, but that does not mean the idea of holding material components in your hand is not a rule. It just means they should have written that spell as having access to the material and the defined what it means to "have access" to it.
I think dipping your fingers into a spell component pouch to retrieve and manipulate the material component is considered part of the standard(whatever) action of casting a spell.
I think everyone agrees with that. The point being raised, not that I think it matters in actual play, is whether or not you actually need to have it in your hands.
I agree that it is very hard to make precise movements while holding something in real life, but the game is not realistic.
|
|
I think dipping your fingers into a spell component pouch to retrieve and manipulate the material component is considered part of the standard(whatever) action of casting a spell.I think everyone agrees with that. The point being raised, not that I think it matters in actual play, is whether or not you actually need to have it in your hands.
I agree that it is very hard to make precise movements while holding something in real life, but the game is not realistic.
I generally rule that manipulating the materials for the M or DF component and doing the fine gestures for the S component are part of the same set of gestures and can be done with the same hand but an explicit rule about that would be nice.
For bulky or weighty components you merely need to touch them.
I am following a rerun of Fringe. You know Peter Bishop? He is constantly doing this trick with a coin even when under stress and while doing other things. In one of the episodes we see him as a child learning to do it and fumbling.
I think it is a good example of fine manipulation of a item while doing precise hand gestures.
It require training, something that we suppose the spellcaster get.
- * -
About your spell pouch argument: we can suppose that the enemy spell pouch had the right components for a few castings and the the guy learning a new spell has to spend time learning it, so there is soem time to get the needed components.
Some spell has components that while they don't have a set price aren't readily available everywhere:
Infernal healing (I know, people will hate me for saying that, but devil blood is not a 0 value component and the alternate component has a price, it is unholy water, 25 gp to the bottle);
The XX shape spells, as they require pieces of the creature in which you want to transform
and so on.
As a player I don't assume that I have the pieces of every creature ever existed in which I can turn or that I can have an exemplar of everything without a listed price in my spellpouch simply because the rules say "Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch."
Is assumed isn't the same thing of has everything.
If I invent a spell that use a club as a spell component I don't have an infinite number of weightless clubs in my spell pouch.
I generally rule that manipulating the materials for the M or DF component and doing the fine gestures for the S component are part of the same set of gestures and can be done with the same hand but an explicit rule about that would be nice.
For bulky or weighty components you merely need to touch them.
I am following a rerun of Fringe. You know Peter Bishop? He is constantly doing this trick with a coin even when under stress and while doing other things. In one of the episodes we see him as a child learning to do it and fumbling.
I think it is a good example of fine manipulation of a item while doing precise hand gestures.
It require training, something that we suppose the spellcaster get.- * -
About your spell pouch argument: we can suppose that the enemy spell pouch had the right components for a few castings and the the guy learning a new spell has to spend time learning it, so there is soem time to get the needed components.
Some spell has components that while they don't have a set price aren't readily available everywhere:
Infernal healing (I know, people will hate me for saying that, but devil blood is not a 0 value component and the alternate component has a price, it is unholy water, 25 gp to the bottle);
The XX shape spells, as they require pieces of the creature in which you want to transform
and so on.As a player I don't assume that I have the pieces of every creature ever existed in which I can turn or that I can have an exemplar of everything without a listed price in my spellpouch simply because the rules say "Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch."
Is assumed isn't the same thing of has everything.
If I invent a spell that use a club as a spell component I don't have an infinite number of weightless clubs in my spell pouch.
So basically we should follow the intent for the spell pouch because the book says so, but for material components we get to ignore the rule despite what the says about manipulating it?
Its tough! Assuming you need to manipulate components and wave your hands around, assuming it takes a hand means anyone without eschew material can't use a rod, and no one with a bonded weapon can ever cast spells.
I asked this very question on the boards and got "you do them both with the same hand." and that kind of ended it. Never got a RAW ruling for it. I feel like thats probably right (must have one hand free) and have never had an issue with it, but I could see a GM in PFS saying something about it based off RAW.
It solves the hand problem if you don't assume manipulating the material component and doing the somatic gesture has to be at exactly the same time. You caster can begin the casting, then reach into the pouch and pull out the spider silk/butter/whatever, and then complete the casting. All possible in a couple seconds.
Now that doesn't answer the 'Do you need to have the material component in your hand?'.
|
|
So basically we should follow the intent for the spell pouch because the book says so, but for material components we get to ignore the rule despite what the says about manipulating it?
AFAIK It don't say anywhere that you need to manipulate the components with a different hand from those doing the gesture.
For some use of a holy symbol it say the opposite, it describe the cleric brandishing it as part of its use.As a general rule I think that it is appropriate to allow people to cast spells using one hand even if they use components.
It would be fun to hear the screaming if a Dev came here and said "no, you need to use 2 different hands".
Let's see:
- no spell with a material component and metamagic rod;
- a magus using spell combat would be unable to use spells with a material component;
- a wand, weapon or other hand held items would be a suicide as a arcane focus for a wizard;
- an Arcane Duelist bard would have problems casting spells with material components from level 5 onward (weapon as an arcane bond, luckily for him he can make the gesture with the weapon);
- Cleric with shield and weapon? Better having that shield that work as a divine focus or the birth mark trait.
And those are only some of the possible examples.
|
|
Its tough! Assuming you need to manipulate components and wave your hands around, assuming it takes a hand means anyone without eschew material can't use a rod, and no one with a bonded weapon can ever cast spells.
I asked this very question on the boards and got "you do them both with the same hand." and that kind of ended it. Never got a RAW ruling for it. I feel like thats probably right (must have one hand free) and have never had an issue with it, but I could see a GM in PFS saying something about it based off RAW.
Note that eschew materials work only for components worth 1 gp or less and it don't work for focuses. It would become a mandatory feat for all the spellcaster that don't depend on divine focuses.
| 19 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This post formatted for FAQing.
Do you need your material component(s) in hand to cast a spell? What does it mean to "manipulate the material component?" Can I use the same hand that is performing the somatic component, or can the materials stay in my spell component pouch and don't really require any hand at all? Perhaps the manipulation aspect is part of spell preparation, and not the casting itself?
The rules clearly state that "" which implies you need a hand free in order to manipulate the material component.
However, that would prevent a great deal of other mechanics from working as seemingly intended, things such as:
- attempting to cast a spell with a somatic component, a material component, and a metamagic rod
- a magus attempting to use Spell Combat with a one-handed melee weapon, a somatic component, and a material component
- attempting to cast a spell while holding a wand, weapon, or other arcane bond item along with a somatic component and a material component
- making use of the Still Spell feat, but still requiring a hand for the material component
What is the manner intended for handling material components?
It solves the hand problem if you don't assume manipulating the material component and doing the somatic gesture has to be at exactly the same time. You caster can begin the casting, then reach into the pouch and pull out the spider silk/butter/whatever, and then complete the casting. All possible in a couple seconds.
Now that doesn't answer the 'Do you need to have the material component in your hand?'.
Agreed, but I think it is reasonable to say at some point during the casting the item makes its way into your hand.
So basically we should follow the intent for the spell pouch because the book says so, but for material components we get to ignore the rule despite what the says about manipulating it?AFAIK It don't say anywhere that you need to manipulate the components with a different hand from those doing the gesture.
I was never saying that. :)
This post formatted for FAQing.
Do you need your material component(s) in hand to cast a spell? What does it mean to "manipulate the material component?" Can I use the same hand that is performing the somatic component, or can the materials stay in my spell component pouch and don't really require any hand at all? Perhaps the manipulation aspect is part of spell preparation, and not the casting itself?
The rules clearly state that "" which implies you need a hand free in order to manipulate the material component.
However, that would prevent a great deal of other mechanics from working as seemingly intended, things such as:
- casting a spell with a material component along with a metamagic rod
- a magus using Spell Combat with a spell requiring a material component
- a wand, weapon or other hand held item being used as an arcane focus along with a spell requiring a material component;
What is the manner intended for handling material components?
The magus can use his non weapon hand to do the somatic component and handle the material component.
The metamagic rod could be a problem if you have a weapon in your other hand.
I guess it matters in PFS, but most people will still handwave it away I think. Or Paizo will come up with some feat or item that makes it not matter anymore.
RD you should probably start a different thread since your first post seemed like an FAQ question also, and the devs dont like two FAQ questions in one thread.
I don't see how it looks like a FAQ question. It looks more like someone who can't find the relevant rule to me.
Agreed, but I think it is reasonable to say at some point during the casting the item makes its way into your hand.It solves the hand problem if you don't assume manipulating the material component and doing the somatic gesture has to be at exactly the same time. You caster can begin the casting, then reach into the pouch and pull out the spider silk/butter/whatever, and then complete the casting. All possible in a couple seconds.
Now that doesn't answer the 'Do you need to have the material component in your hand?'.
Yes, but I'm saying you don't need to be doing somatic gestures at that exact moment. So you wiggle your fingers, pull out the component, it gets sucked away by magical energies, and the spell is cast. Or you start the casting, pull out the component, it gets dissolved by magical energies, and you finish it by making a hand motion.
I don't see how it looks like a FAQ question. It looks more like someone who can't find the relevant rule to me.
Nevermind. My memory failed me. I thought I read a question.
Yes, but I'm saying you don't need to be doing somatic gestures at that exact moment. So you wiggle your fingers, pull out the component, it gets sucked away by magical energies, and the spell is cast. Or you start the casting, pull out the component, it gets dissolved by magical energies, and you finish it by making a hand motion.Agreed, but I think it is reasonable to say at some point during the casting the item makes its way into your hand.It solves the hand problem if you don't assume manipulating the material component and doing the somatic gesture has to be at exactly the same time. You caster can begin the casting, then reach into the pouch and pull out the spider silk/butter/whatever, and then complete the casting. All possible in a couple seconds.
Now that doesn't answer the 'Do you need to have the material component in your hand?'.
That is also what I was saying.
And all I'm saying is that it all comes down to supposition and that the rules are actually quite unclear, if not outright contradictory.
That's why I felt such a thread was necessary. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I never understood the point of material components. You can make gestures and manipulate materials with one hand as a standard action, you get one item once that virtually acts as Eschew Materials making it a pretty useless feat. You basically have to work it like that because there's no 'charges' on a component pouch so nobody can track it if they wanted to. So unless it has a price it means nothing.
I really want to assume that you need one hand for the material component and one hand for the somatic component purely to make material components actually matter. (and take casters, aside from bloodline casters, down a peg)
And all I'm saying is that it all comes down to supposition and that the rules are actually quite unclear, if not outright contradictory.
That's why I felt such a thread was necessary. :)
I guess they could put in a rule say that no free hand was needed. You just need to be able to actually reach into your pouch and grab the material component.