Searched through some old threads on this but couldn't find the answer, so please forgive as i am sure it would have been asked before.
Question: If trying to overrun an opponent with reach while having the improved overrun feat mean that at no point during the character's movement does the reach creature get an AoO?
Example: Creature with improved overrun and move of 10 squares starts turn 3 squares away from an ogre. Creature declares an overrun attempt and will try to move forward through the ogre's space and onward for full movement. Does the ogre at any point get an AoO at the creature trying to overrun?
Thanks in advance guys and gals.
Question: Does trying to overrun an opponent with reach while having the improved overrun feat mean that at no point during the character's movement does the reach creature get an AoO?
No. It simply means that the overrun maneuver itself does not provoke. You still provoke for movement as normal.
Without the Improved Overrun feat a creature with reach being the target of an attempted Overrun could (with Combat Reflexes) make an Attack Of Opportunity for your movement out of a sqaure he threatens and then make another AoO for the Overrun attempt (which provokes without the feat).
But doesn't that mean that overrun will in almost all situations cause an AoO?
for example if fighter 1 with overrun is standing directly in front of the fighter 2, fighter 1 attempts overrun and wants to move through to the square opposite fighter 2 (so he is now essentially behind him). Without the improved overrun feat the maneuver provokes an AoO (we will assume for now that fighter 2 does not have combat reflexes), but with the feat fighter 1 doesn't provoke an AoO for the maneuver but will still provoke for leaving the threatened square either in front of fighter 2 or possibly even from leaving the square that fighter 2 currently occupies.
Considering the vast majority of creatures only have a single AoO if the above is the case it seems as though the improved overrun feat is completely pointless (ie will only help if your opponent has combat reflexes).
If you opponent has reach weapon or is large size or larger, then yes.
You seem to have a proper grasp on the rules.
You now understand one of the reasons why people don't execute overrun maneuvers against creatures with increased reach.
You may be over estimating my grasp on the rules lol
wouldn't this also then mean that if someone has combat reflexes and is bull rushed they could potentially take 5 or more AoOs at the attacker, due to being pushed back.
Lets call the squares A through G like so:
A-B-C-D-E-F-G
attacker starts in A
defender starts in C [defender has 5 foot reach]
attacker declares bull rush: provokes an AoO which defender cant take as the attacker is too far away (or if attack has improved bulls rush)
attacker then steps into B
attacker makes roll and pushes defender all the way back to G, and chooses the option to follow so he will end in F
defender has combat reflexes which then allows him to take 5 AoOs because as the defender is pushed back a square his threaten range continues to fall back a square each time as well. In order for the attacker to follow he must pass through the defender's threatened squares.
So defender goes from C to D (now threatens C), then from D to E (now threatens D) and so on.
it seems to me that the spirit of the rule is that if you attempt to bull rush or overrun an opponent and you have the relevant improved feat the defender should be denied an AoO due to how awesome you are at that particular thing. With what we currently discussed, with either maneuver you will always provoke at least 2 AoOs to perform either one (and many more in the case of Bull Rush), given that most badies will have only 1 AoO for the turn this makes the improved feats "You dont provoke and AoO" line meaningless.
Movement within a single round only provokes once from any given individual, no matter how many squares they move through.
Also, you provoke for moving out of a threatened square, not for an opponent moving out. Because the specifics of bullrush say that their bullrushed person's movement doesn't it doesn't, and if they move away and no longer threaten the square you don't provoke for moving out of it.
Would activating the Lunge feat help on an Overrun attempt versus someone wth 5' mor ereach thanI usually have. I.e. Tiger large with 5' reach with lunge does a greater overrun attempt versus ogre with 10' reach. Would lunge keep him from getting an AOO versus the tiger?
Sutyr, if I understand your example correctly, sort of.
Bascially, if two creatures have equal reach then you will not have to move in such a way that it would provoke attacks of opportunity. If you were fighting a giant with 10ft reach, and you normally had 5ft reach but used lunge to extend it to 10 then when you got within 10ft you could make an attack. That attack could be an Bullrush attempt. Assuming you have Improved Bullrush, the maneuver itself doesn't provoke. When you move in to attack, you don't move out of a square that threatens so he wont get an AoO there either.
For an Overrun instead, depending on how far you overrun him from you might provoke for that movement. Or how far you move after the overrun. If you are adjacent, and only move to the opposite side I don't believe you will provoke. But if you start far enough away or move far enough away that you leave a square the enemy threatens then yes your movement will still provoke.
*Unless there is some sort of explicit statement that the movement you are perform provokes an AoO for some other reason
Edit: Sorry, when I started writing this I still hadn't had breakfast and I was thinking of Bullrush not Overrun. Thats what I get for posting before I'm fully awake, but I think I've corrected my post now.
Claxon,
Great info thanks.
Wouldn't you still technically threaten the square you occupy?
If so then overrun will always provoke an AoO, because you first move into the opponents square (which you are right does not provoke) but in so doing you have also moved out of the square in front of the opponent which will also provoke an AoO since overrun doesn't say that the AoO that is caused by the overrun attempt is due to the initial square of movement. After that you must then also move out of the square occupied by the opponent into some other square you can occupy which will provoke again.
Wouldn't you still technically threaten the square you occupy?
If so then overrun will always provoke an AoO, because you first move into the opponents square (which you are right does not provoke) but in so doing you have also moved out of the square in front of the opponent which will also provoke an AoO since overrun doesn't say that the AoO that is caused by the overrun attempt is due to the initial square of movement. After that you must then also move out of the square occupied by the opponent into some other square you can occupy which will provoke again.
Actually, yes GreyFox. You are right. Again, that last post was written early. Also, remember that you only provoke once per creature for moving. So you will not provoke for moving out of the square in front of them, and then again for moving out of their square. You only provoke once for the entire movement.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
The one caveat being that you can use Acrobatic against the enemies CMD to avoid Attacks of Opportunity.
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5. If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.
Situation Base Acrobatics DC*
Move through a threatened area Opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense
Move through an enemy's space 5 + opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense* This DC is used to avoid an attack of opportunity due to movement. This DC increases by 2 for each additional opponent avoided in 1 round
Also, remember that you only provoke once per creature for moving. So you will not provoke for moving out of the square in front of them, and then again for moving out of their square. You only provoke once for the entire movement.
So then overrun always provokes 2 AoO? (the first for declaring the overrun and the second for moving out of the square in front of the opponent)
Or
The AoO provoked by overrun is due to the movement, which means with improved overrun the AoO provoked by movement is negated and since movement only ever provokes 1 AoO then having reach will still mean no AoO
Also, remember that you only provoke once per creature for moving. So you will not provoke for moving out of the square in front of them, and then again for moving out of their square. You only provoke once for the entire movement.
So then overrun always provokes 2 AoO? (the first for declaring the overrun and the second for moving out of the square in front of the opponent)
Or
The AoO provoked by overrun is due to the movement, which means with improved overrun the AoO provoked by movement is negated and since movement only ever provokes 1 AoO then having reach will still mean no AoO
It can provoke up to 2. If you have Improved Overrun then the maneuver itself doesn't provoke. If you use Acrobatics successfully then you will not provoke for your movement. So, with those things in place Overrun can provoke 0 attacks of opportunity.
Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.
The movement is a separate action from the Overrun maneuver, and follows the normal rules all other movement does. Unforunaely Zathyr, I can find nothing to support your interpretation within the rules.
Your interpretation would make Overrun better, perhaps even useful, but such an interpretation isn't supported.
Even moving from one side to the other grants the opponent an AoO since they also threaten their own square. Being prone also does not stop them from threatening a square, but they do take a -4 to the attack.
It can provoke up to 2. If you have Improved Overrun then the maneuver itself doesn't provoke. If you use Acrobatics successfully then you will not provoke for your movement. So, with those things in place Overrun can provoke 0 attacks of opportunity.
That seems like a lot of investment in order to get the maneuver to not suck so bad.
I will agree that straight reading of the rules indicates the 2 AoOs on overrun (and bull rush given the circumstances), but i still think there is some grey area around what is intended. I generally prefer to side with spirit of the rules where it is possible to discern them, in this case it seems like the rules for the combat maneuvers were designed without movement in mind, the spirit seems to be (at least with the other non movement ones) that you provoke an AoO unless you take a special feat.
The problems you all are noticing are the reason why people do not commonly use combat maneuvers in combat. The associated cost is far too much and the risk too great. At least compared to simply killing the enemy with an attack.
The only combat maneuvers that really get used are trip, disarm, grapple, and least of all sunder. The others might as well not exist.
I too prefer rules as intended, and I am not a strict adherent to "RAW". But to me there isn't a clear intent with the rules because movement is completely separated from maneuver, and so has separate rules for provoking which the Improved Maneuver feats don't negate.
Fair enough, thanks for taking the time to discuss it with me, its good having someone else to bounce ideas off when confused about the way something works.
Fair enough, thanks for taking the time to discuss it with me, its good having someone else to bounce ideas off when confused about the way something works.
No problem. Glad to help. I enjoy helping people understand the rules of the game to the best of my abilities (I am not perfect and am wrong on various occasions).
It would be nice if maneuvers were looked over again and revised to work a bit better, as currently they are pretty under utilized due to issues that you have noted.
Thanks all for the discussion