I would need a little bit of clarification on how ambushes are worked out, specifically with one certain scenario:
Two characters enter a room, where there is a stealthing assassin. The two characters fail their perception checks vs the assassin's stealth check.
The assassin then spends 3 rounds observing his target, and moves in for a kill and attacks.
Now, I am the DM, and the assassin is an NPC. Of the two characters, the other is a wizard (divination) with the Forewarned ability, enabling him to act on surprise rounds. The other is a rogue/cleric (getting attacked By the assassin).
How the attack / initiative should work? Should I have all characters roll their initiatives first (even if the victims are not aware of the assassin) - then proceed to the attack (and if the wizard scores higher initiative then the assassin, the wizard goes first? - even if he has not observed anything yet, as in, no attack done = no visible assassin)
Should the assassin make his attack as per normal regardless? Should the initiatives be rolled AFTER the assassin's attack? How the scene should play out if we go by the book?
The way the scene played out in play was like this:
Since the assassin is getting his jump on his targets, I ruled that this would be the Surprise round, but, I would not roll initiatives, but instead have the assassin go first and then the wizard (because he has forewarned)
The assassin scored natural 20 on his attack against his target, dealt insane damage + sneak attack + death attack + massive damage, and killed his target with that one strike.
Now, the wizard could make his one standard action, which was to cast Hold Person on the assassin. The assassin rolls natural 1 and is held.
Now, I call for initiatives because the surprise round is done and normal combat starts. The wizard rolls natural 1 and scores total of 9. The assassin rolls 4 and scores a total of 9 as well.
I believe in case of a tie, the one who rolled higher would go first, but there was some discussion about the nature of succesfully casting hold person, and losing the effect if the assassin goes first and succeeds on his full-round action will save, effectively negating the spell too soon, so to speak.
So I allow the wizard to go first, and he delivers coup de grace against the helpless assassin and he rolls another natural 1 on his fortitude save and dies.
Something that made the scene a bit absurd was the fact that the assassin was level 18, while the wizard was levl 7.
Anyways, I would just like to know how the scene should had played if it went entirely by the book, and some clarification on these, as the player later messaged me that
1) initiative should be rolled before the surprise round.
2) even if no one is aware of the attacker, they roll initiative (I take he means before the attack happens)
3 The one initiating the surprise round would act even with the worst initiative of everyone involved
4)(he then adds) expect if he had rolled better initiative than the assassin (assuming he means he would had get to act first with better initiative, coupled with Forewarned - despite failing to spot the assassin).
((( I am aware of the wording regarding the start of combat as "When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative." and then proceeding to check if there is a surprise round or not)))
Well, I can for sure clear up one thing. When the wizard and the assassin tied initiative, the wizard should have (and did) go first. You mentioned you thought the higher roll should go first. This is covered under the Initiative topic in the PRD, here is it in quotes
"If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first)."
So you did that part correctly.
You mention at the bottom of your post you are aware that "When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative"
My opinion is that that should answer your other questions. This is what I believe should have happened according to the rules (my interpretation of course)
You (GM) have your assassin in stealth and unobserved by the PCs. The Assassin gets a surprise round on the PCs, so you have everyone roll initiative (possibly hiding the assassin's total because they don't know what is going on yet). The wizard ties your assassin, but has a higher modifier so goes first. He still has no idea what is going on, and does not see the assassin, so you describe what he sees, and tell him he has a standard or a move action and ask him what he would like to do. Assassin takes his attack, and the game continues from there.
Thank you for your reply and clearing the initiative tie rule.
I realise that I could have checked the initiatives prior to the attack in secret, and tell the wizard that he can at this moment make one action. Of course, as the wizard would not know specifically that they are about to get jumped on, telling him to roll initiative would give away that there is a fight coming.
Forewarned seems to be quite powerful against ambushes, if the wizard can score the highest initiative, as in such cases he would be able to act before the ambushers. Of course, there is the question then, that if the wizard fails to perceive the attackers, but goes first, what use is it? The Forewarned does not actually warn him before hand of any impeding danger, and I suppose that in some cases, would act against him.
Thanks for the replies and clarification. Mods can move/lock this thread now.
Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
Based on the text of Forewarned I believe the intention is that the wizard always gets to go in the Surprise round, but unless he succeeds at the perception check (which he failed) that he should go after those that did succeed. In this case, the ninja should go and then the wizard afterward.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
So, the benefit the wizard is gaining from Forewarned is the ability to act in the surprise round when he normally couldn't have.
At least this is how I believe it works, unless he had succeeded in the perception check. If he had, then he would have gone before the ninja.
Good insight, Claxon. Thanks.
I have to disagree with Claxton. The Forewarned power does what it says it does. There is no reference to the wizard's action being delayed until after anyone else. The wizard goes on his initiative in the surprise round, regardless of the success or failure of the perception check.
However, failure of the perception check limits the information he has to act on when he does go.
I have to disagree with Claxton. The Forewarned power does what it says it does. There is no reference to the wizard's action being delayed until after anyone else. The wizard goes on his initiative in the surprise round, regardless of the success or failure of the perception check.
However, failure of the perception check limits the information he has to act on when he does go.
I admit that your stance may be more "Rules as Written", though I'm not particularly sure. How surprise rounds should work aren't particularly clear, and the Wizard ability only makes it more complicated.
Especially since we enter a very metagamey situation where the wizard character can act, but has no understanding of what is happening or why (in this case). And then we have to enter into a undestanding with the player about not using metagame information that he knows about the situation to direct his character.
Even if it's not RAW, I think the easier way to run it is the wizard gets to act, but since he failed the perception check he acts after the ninja. Honestly this probably works out better for the wizard in this situation since he will probably be able to make a more meaningful action in this case.
Since the Forewarned ability does not actually offer any insight into the situation, I would not say that the wizard would "sense" that something was about to happen, especially if he fails to perceive any impending danger. Reason for this is that there is a spell to receive / sense danger what is about to happen, and its 9th level spell.
If he had an active Foresight effect on him, then he would receive magical warning / sense something was about to happen and how to best counter it.
In this case, going first when nothing has yet happened would not benefit the wizard (especially if the initiative is made in secret, to prevent meta and just casually mention that the wizard can at this moment make one action)
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I think spider sense is a good way to understand forewarned. You just KNOW that combat has started. He doesn't know anything else though, so if he wins initiative, he needs to do something very smart.
He can Delay, but that still leaves him flat-footed because he hasn't acted. It's better to Ready a spell to intercept the bad guy when he decides to reveal himself.
Honestly, Forewarned is a really good power. Divination School has about the best school powers, but the bonus spells per day aren't awesome, so that balances it out a bit.
I always call for an initiative roll as a way to stop the chat an start the session, it helps focus and serves good to roleplay surprise encounters.
The wizard can always delay or ready an action against the first oponent apearing in the room. It's not clear to me what happens with the flat-footed condition if he delays, I guess he keeps it as delaying probably does not count as an action but reading does (standard action).
Well, I can for sure clear up one thing. When the wizard and the assassin tied initiative, the wizard should have (and did) go first. You mentioned you thought the higher roll should go first. This is covered under the Initiative topic in the PRD, here is it in quotes
"If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first)."
So you did that part correctly.
Actually, I disagree that it was done correctly (depending on modifiers). It says initiative modifier, not d20 roll. Initiative is 1d20 + any modifiers (Dexterity, Feats, Traits, etc.).
An assassin probably has a higher Dexterity and other things going for him there than the wizard does.
For example, Assassin rolls a 2 and has +11 for modifiers for a total of 13. Wizard rolls a 12 with a +1 modifier for a total of 13.
Assassin goes first. Am I interpreting that sentence wrong somehow?
"The wizard rolls natural 1 and scores total of 9. The assassin rolls 4 and scores a total of 9 as well."
The wizard was a diviner and therefore got a big bonus.
(You're replying to an old thread anyway. Also, this thread makes me wonder what kind of GM would send a level 18 assassin after a level 7 PC.)
"The wizard rolls natural 1 and scores total of 9. The assassin rolls 4 and scores a total of 9 as well."
The wizard was a diviner and therefore got a big bonus.(You're replying to an old thread anyway. Also, this thread makes me wonder what kind of GM would send a level 18 assassin after a level 7 PC.)
True.