Ranger / Druid or Feral Hunter for Wildshape Build

[Unit_DM]

I started a Ranger/Druid recently that I planned to build a martial wildshaper. Now that "Hunter" exists, I'm trying to decide which is better. The Hunter would of course use the "Feral Hunter" archetype. The R/D was going to be lvl4 druid, the rest ranger with feats to bump up wild shape. I hadn't decided if I would go the vital strike/uber-gore route or the dire tiger/mega-pounce route.

It seem, on first examination, that the I'd be giving up a better BAB, better saves, favored enemies, favored terrain, my animal companion, and combat style feats.

In return I would get bonus teamwork feats, a couple extra feat slots (on account of not needing Shaping Focus or Shapeshifting Hunter), better spells and spontaneous casting, feral focus and summon pack.

I think they both could be fun. The R/D is more solitary but probably better at combat. The Hunter can shift more often and has the benefit of Feral Focus (wildshape light) for when he's run out of shifts. However, my R/D would still be pretty handy with an earthbreaker after he uses all his shifts.

Thoughts?

[Crimlock NL]

I'm looking at the same thing and found your tread. Saw that there are no reactions yet.. Hope somebody cares to share a thought.

[Thaliak]

Since neither poster specified a level range or other restrictions, I'm going to answer this question with the assumption that the game will go to 12th level. I've only had one game go higher and I understand that to be the cap for PFS, so it seems reasonable.

Base HP
For both builds, I assume you only have access to one Favored Class, assign it to Ranger or Hunter, and use it to gain hit points.

Ranger 4/Druid 8: 74 (10+4.5*4+5.5*7+8)

Feral Hunter 12: 69 (8+4.5*11+12) (-5)

The Druid 4/Ranger 8 has more hit points, but I doubt the difference is big enough to matter in most situations.

Base Saves
Druid 4/Ranger 8
Fort: 10 (6 from Ranger + 4 from Druid)
Ref : 7 (6 from Ranger + 1 from Druid)
Will: 6 (2 from Ranger + 4 from Druid)

Feral Hunter 12
Fort: 8 (-2)
Ref : 8 (+1)
Will: 4 (-2)

The Druid 4/Ranger 8 has better saves, but again, I don't think the difference is huge.

Base BAB
Druid 4/Ranger 8: 11/6

Feral Hunter 12: 9/4 (-2)

Skills
Druid 4/Ranger 8: 64 points before intelligence

Feral Hunter 12: 72 points before intelligence (+8)

Both characters would have Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Perception, Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, and Swim as class skills. The Druid 4/Ranger 8 would also have Fly.

At first glance, it might seem like the Feral Hunter has an advantage, because he gets more skill points a level and faster access to the bonus from Track. However, the Druid 4/Ranger 8 has Nature Sense, which negates the bonuses the bonus from accelerated Track progression and gives the build a 2-point advantage in Knowledge (nature).

The Ranger/Druid 4 can use Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain to get situational bonuses to several skills. However, the Feral Hunter has access to Animal Focus, which can boost several skills–including key skills like Stealth and Perception–through attribute and competence bonuses, so it should pull ahead in specific areas.

Spells
Druid 4/Ranger 8
Level 0: 4 Druid (CL 4)
Level 1: 1 Ranger (CL 5)/3 Druid (CL 8)
Level 2: 1 Ranger (CL 5)/2 Druid (CL 8)

Feral Hunter 12
Level 0: 6 Druid (+2, but fixed)
Level 1: 5 Ranger/Druid (CL 12; 6 known) (+1 slot)
Level 2: 5 Ranger/Druid (CL 12; 6 known) (+1 slot)
Level 3: 4 Ranger/Druid (CL 12; 5 known) (+4 slots)
Level 4: 3 Ranger/Druid (CL 12) 4 known) (+3 slots)

The Hunter knows Summon Nature’s Ally I-IV, but the Druid and Ranger have access to every spell on their list.

Needless to say, this category goes to the Hunter. He has higher level spells, a higher caster level, and more slots. He also has nice buffs to his Summon Nature’s Ally spells, but I’m not experienced enough with summoning to say how useful those are.

Wild Shape
Ranger 8/Druid 4
Forms Available: Diminutive, tiny, small, medium, and large animals; small and medium elementals; and small or medium plant creatures
Spells Emulated: Beast Shape III, Elemental Body II, or Plant Shape I
Uses: 5/day
Duration per use: 8 hours

Feral Hunter 12
Forms: Diminutive, tiny, small, medium, and large animals
Spell Emulated: Beast Shape III
Uses: 5/day
Duration per use: 12 hours

This category goes to the Druid 4/Ranger 8, because he has access to a wider variety of forms. His Wild Shape is shorter, but the difference is negligible unless you frequently change shape and have several combats throughout the day.

Other Class Features
Druid 4/Ranger 8
Access to Druidic
Nature’s Bond (level 9 if animal companion)
Nature Sense (+2 bonus on Nature and Survival checks)
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature’s Lure
Track (+4)
Swift Tracker
Three favored enemies
Two favored terrains

Feral Hunter 12
Animal Focus
Nature Training
Track (+6)
Teamwork Feat
Precise Summoned Animal
Woodland Stride
Second Animal Focus
Swift Tracker

Feats
Druid 4/Ranger 8
If you choose the Natural Weapon Combat Style, you would have access to 1 feat from among Aspect of the Beast, Improved Natural Weapon, Rending Claws, and Weapon Focus. At Level 10, you could select a feat from the list above, as well as Eldritch Claws and Vital Strike.

Strangely enough, the Natural Combat Combat Style seems awkward for this build. It might be more optimal to use the Two-Handed Weapon style. In that case, you could get Cleave, Power Attack, Pushing Assault, or Shield of Swings at 2nd level, with Furious Focus and Great Cleave added to the list at 6th. Personally, I’d recommend Power Attack and Furious Focus.

If you have access to the Faithful Combat Styles D20PFSRD mentions, you might have better options.

Feral Hunter 12
As a Feral Hunter 12, you’ll gain a single teamwork feat that you change a number of times each day equal to your Wisdom modifier as a standard action. Unless you have other party members with teamwork feats, this isn’t useful.

Since the Druid 4/Ranger 8 build requires two feats to function as intended, the Hunter appears to have a feat advantage at level 12. The Ranger has more BAB, which might allow him to select combat-related feats more quickly, but I suspect this won't matter until late in his career. The Hunter should eventually catch up, as the Ranger needs to spend his Level 5 and Level 7 feats on Shaping Focus and possibly Shapeshifting Hunter to function as intended. Feral Hunter

The Verdict
I’d go with the Hunter. It gets more spells, which can provide out-of-combat utility, buffs, mook-clearing blasts, and battlefield control. You might not be able to match a dedicated caster, but play intelligently, and you should get use out of the extra spells.

More importantly, the Feral Hunter gets access to Animal Focus and Greater Animal Focus, which he can use to buff his strength, dexterity or constitution in human or beast form; enhance his vision; gain Evasion and Improved Evasion; land attacks of opportunity; or improve Climb and Swim checks.

“But Thaliak,” my skeptical reader cries, “those bonuses can be replicated by items!” That’s true, but unless you’re playing in a game where wealth is easy to come by, I doubt you’ll have items to replicate all of the bonuses.

Even in a high-wealth game, Animal Focus can still save money. Consider the Mouse animal focus, which grants Evasion at first level (take that, Rogue!) and Improved Evasion at Level 12. A Ring of Evasion would cost 25,000 gold, a fair sum, and offer less benefit.

“I don’t care about saving money, Thaliak! I want to Wild Shape!" my imaginary reader replies. “The Druid 4/Ranger 8 is better at Wild Shape, because it has access to Elemental Body II and Plant Shape I, not just Beast Shape III!”

More power to you. I’m no expert on polymorph spells, so I can’t say how much Elemental Body and Plant Shape will help you. However, my limited experience with druids suggests that turning into a lion and pouncing is often good enough. The Hunter also has the advantage of access to buffs like Barkskin and Air Walk.

Even if the Druid 4/Ranger 8’s more versatile Shapeshifting made it a more powerful option, I might still consider the Hunter, because it looks much simpler to play. Instead of preparing spells from two separate lists, you select generally useful or thematically appropriate spells and have access to them at any time. Instead of selecting forms from three lists, you only need to worry about one. And instead of asking your GM whether your Favored Enemy or Favored Terrain bonus applies, you pick the Animal Focuses that seem most appropriate for the situation and add those bonuses.

You also don't need to worry about an animal companion. While that might be a hit in power, it'll make it much easier to play the character.

The Feral Hunter has one other advantage: It's a shapeshifter from level 1. You might not get Wild Shape until Level 4, but you will get the Feral Hunter's version of Animal Focus, which makes cosmetic changes to your character's form. That can be fun to roleplay.

Besides, if you play a Feral Hunter, you’ll be blazing new ground. The next time someone comes along and asks if they should play a Feral Hunter, you’ll be able to give them advice that is based on experience, not theorycrafting. I'm sure that will be appreciated.

[Crimlock NL]

Wow thanks for the long and detailed answer! I guess I'll be playing a hunter :-) you really answered all of my questions :-)

[Xethik]

Great analysis.

[Saker]

Quote:

More importantly, the Feral Hunter gets access to Animal Focus and Greater Animal Focus, which he can use to buff his strength, dexterity or constitution in human or beast form;

Are you sure about applying it for beast form (wild shape)? As a GM, I would totally allow it, but the animal focus and wild shape are two different polymorph abilities and by RAW I think you have to chose one or the other. I think RAI should allow it, but rules under polymorph don't. It would be nice if that clarification was made under the Hunter/Feral Hunter class.

[Taenia]

Animal Focus is not listed as a polymorph effect and should stack with any form. If you look at Feral Hunter:

Feral Focus (Su): At 1st level, a feral hunter gains a limited ability to change her shape into hybrid animal forms. This functions as the animal focus class feature, except that the hunter always applies the animal aspect to herself, and there is no limit to this ability's duration. She can end this ability as a free action.

When a feral hunter uses this ability, her body takes on cosmetic aspects of an animal, such as furry skin, longer nails, elongated teeth, and oddly colored eyes; these changes do not grant her any abilities other than what is stated in the animal focus, and end when she takes on a different aspect or ends the ability. This physical change is a polymorph effect, though the effects of the animal focus are not.

This ability replaces the animal focus, hunter tactics, and speak with master class abilities.

I personally find your choice odd. If you were comparing a ranger/druid to a hunter I would at the following:

Druid 12

Druid 8/Ranger 4

as other options for example looking at Druid 12

8/4/8 base saves on par with hunter

+9/+4 BAB identical to hunter

Wildshape - 5/day, 12 hours, Elemental Form 4 (all elemental shapes are now immune to crit/sneak attack/bleed and 5/- DR) Huge plant with 60' reach are available and you don't have to spend a feat.

Immune to Poison

Access to either a full level Animal Companion plus Wild Shape or a Domain with additional spells and abilities. Some, like Eagle Domain, can grant you evasion while flying, Crocodile gives you Sneak Attack, etc. or you can get Animal Focus x2 for 12 min per day giving up nature bond/immunity to poison et. al.

Full on spell casting. Sure you can't get teamwork feats and animal focus constantly but instead you have 6th level spells. A treant running around with you for days, extra spell stored in a stick, Cast resist energy fire and walk up to a creature and do 8d8+96 fire damage with no SR. Summon dire tigers. Stoneskin... etc.

You still have wild shape and maybe not as many spells as a focused caster but you can buff yourself up just fine. Hunter's Blessing is a 5th level spell that gives you a changable version of Favorite Enemy and Terrain for your whole party.

To be honest I like Feral Hunter at low levels but you can melee just as well with a straight druid.

[lemeres]

Thaliak wrote:

“I don’t care about saving money, Thaliak! I want to Wild Shape!" my imaginary reader replies. “The Druid 4/Ranger 8 is better at Wild Shape, because it has access to Elemental Body II and Plant Shape I, not just Beast Shape III!”

More power to you. I’m no expert on polymorph spells, so I can’t say how much Elemental Body and Plant Shape will help you. However, my limited experience with druids suggests that turning into a lion and pouncing is often good enough. The Hunter also has the advantage of access to buffs like Barkskin and Air Walk.

Well, elemental body can provide very different kinds of play from the standard pouncer.

First of all, with the ability to get DR 5/- and immunity to crit/bleed/sneak, you can make yourself extremely sturdy as an elemental when you hit effective level 12. Put that on an air elemental and zip around the sky, and you can be quite the defensive caster.

Of course, you are not looking for a caster if you go with ranger. Then how about a 2 handed weapon character with reach? Elementals can wield weapons if they have a human like shape. Go with an earth elemental (high strength, high natural armor, a bit of con), grab something nice and hefty, and you can be a serious melee threat.

This can also get interesting with goliath druid, which trades in elementals and plants for giants. They may also enjoy this multiclass, and they appear to be valid for this build.

Not saying that Feral hunter is bad. I just wanted to note advantages which might not be obvious about the multiclass.

[Kara Kramer-Rapp]

If I am going to take the skinwaker race would feral hunter still be a better build?

[Daw]

Odd, I would have thought that this thread would have been necroed because of the upcoming shapeshifter Melee class in the (upcoming) Ultimate Wilderness book.