Hey, guys, I am running a campaign and one of my PCs is a gunslinger. I am planning on giving him a magic pepperbox pistol in one of the coming sessions and I would like some help designing the weapon. I'm thinking of a magic pistol that let's the wielder use Haste in order to gain an extra attack, but I don't know how I should do this. I was thinking of giving the pistol three uses of Haste per day. Should the gunslinger spend a grit point in order to do so or should the haste uses be for free? What do you think is more balanced? I was also tinkering with the idea of the gunslinger being able to cast Time Stop once per month, but again, should this be activated with one or more grit points since its such a powerful spell? I'm really at a loss here... any help will be welcomed. Thanks in advance.
As a gunslinger he wouldn't get much use out of timestop,
But other than that, just make it a speed weapon, it's a listed enchantment with a set price.
There's already a weapon enchantment that grants an extra attack at full attack bonus when full-attacking, the speed enchantment. It's a +3 enchantment, so make sure you calculate that into the cost. It doesn't grant the other effect of haste (boosted movement speed) but doesn't have limited uses per day, it's just highly valuable, being +3 worth of the base cost.
Time Stop isn't worth it for a gunslinger, as the only good thing a gunslinger could use it for is reloading, given that attacking would have no effect. And by the level you'd be able to use time stop (which should be no lower than 17, since it's a 9th level spell) reloading shouldn't be an issue anyway.
Edit: ahh, ninja'd
Time stop is useful if you have a large supply of gunpowder and a way to set it off at range.
I'd just give him a Pistol of the Infinite Sky at that point.
Yeah, I know he wouldn't be able to attack, but I was thinking he could use Time Stop to reload or run away if needed. I chose to use Haste instead of a speed weapon because I don't want to increase the base cost too much.
Raven Guy wrote: Yeah, I know he wouldn't be able to attack, but I was thinking he could use Time Stop to reload or run away if needed. I chose to use Haste instead of a speed weapon because I don't want to increase the base cost too much. If you really want to give him haste, give him some Boots of Speed. Weapons usually don't have activated spell effects.
As for Time Stop, that is a 9th level spell. Do not give that away lightly.
The weapon uses temporal energies, that's why it can be used to "speed" time and stop time. I'm just trying to find a way to do this with the rules. The Time Stop would be usable only once per month and it slowly drains away at the character's life energies.
Raven Guy wrote: The weapon uses temporal energies, that's why it can be used to "speed" time and stop time. I'm just trying to find a way to do this with the rules. The Time Stop would be usable only once per month and it slowly drains away at the character's life energies. The 3/day haste would add a raw additional value equal to 6000gp * the item's caster level, which itself would be dependent on the enchantment.
As for the time stop, the rules for calculating magic item cost don't seem to go below 1/day for frequency.
So I'll say right now "drains away at the character's life energies" and "once a month" are not actual limitations. If you want to impose a time-based penalty, just make them count as the next higher age category for twice as long as they used the gun's powers (or an hour for each round, or something else proportional).
Even with that, Time Stop is a terrible spell for a Gunslinger. What you want is Hustle from psionics. Swift action for a move action fits well with temporal acceleration. If you're dead set on haste instead of just a speed weapon the easiest way is probably making Boots of Speed slotless for double the price and using that.
Edit: There's also this quality on some of the new weapons in the Technology Guide. PRD wrote: Semi-Automatic: A semi-automatic weapon normally fires one shot as an attack. However, the user can take a full-attack action to fire twice, as if using the Rapid Shot feat (including taking a -2 penalty on all attacks). If the wielder has the Rapid Shot feat, she can use the additional shot from that as well, but the penalty for all shots fired in that round increases to -6.
That Boots of Speed aproach is a nice touch, but I don't want to give the gun this ability for "free" so I'm thinking the gunslinger should spend a grit point to activate that.
I was thinking of draining one year of the character's life expectancy for each use of Time Stop, so in a few months it would become apparent that he was aging before his friend's eyes. Also, what's your suggestion for the Time Stop spell? Spend at least three grit points to activate or none at all since the gun is draining the character?
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CriticalQuit wrote: If you really want to give him haste, give him some Boots of Speed. Weapons usually don't have activated spell effects. CriticalQuit wrote: As for the time stop, the rules for calculating magic item cost don't seem to go below 1/day for frequency. Its like I can physically SEE the over-emphasis on rules sapping away imagination and creativity.
Kthulhu wrote: Its like I can physically SEE the over-emphasis on rules sapping away imagination and creativity. That's exactly what I was thinking.
That's kind of rude and insulting. You're here asking for advice on balancing a weapon. If you're the DM and want to do something, it happens. If you want to give him a gun that fires all 6 bullets of the pepperbox at once, it does. If you want to give him a gun that allows him to run as fast as the flash but doesn't protect him from friction, it does. Since you're here asking for advice on balancing a weapon, presumably you care about game balance, using actual rules and everything. And one of the simplest ways to balance is to use existing rules and find something similar.
Boots of speed are more than a 5th level character should have, and 5% of a 15th level character. That gives you a nice idea where 10 rounds of haste 1 round at a time as a free action belongs. Time Stop, as previously mentioned, usually doesn't show up until 17th level. If you want to use the formula for magic items I suppose you can just assume a 1/day 9th level spell and divide by 30 again for 1/month. The downside likely factors in as some reduction in cost.
If you don't care about balance but usefulness then, as a gunslinger, I think a gun that gives me Time Stop is utterly pointless and I would never use it, even less likely if it had a downside. A haste affect that aged me would only convince me to get a druid to hold a Reincarnation for me and hope I pull elf so I can blow a couple hundred years with no downside. If it cost me grit I'm just going to ignore it and use something better, Up Close and Deadly perhaps.
I didn't mean to insult you, I'm sorry about that. I was just agreeing with Kthulhu about "fluff" trumping the rules. But that doesn't mean I don't want my pistol to be balanced. I don't want to seem ungrateful because I really liked your advices. I'm sorry if I came out as rude, it was not my intention.
My suggestion would be not to use Time Stop, if you don't want the rules getting in the way of creativity then just create a custom effect, after all it's your campaign. I just wouldn't recommend Time Stop because gunslingers don't have a lot to do with the stopped Time anyway, ironically he would be wasting his standard action he could be blasting with to grant him several standard actions to twiddle his thumbs or ponder the meaning of life. He'd get more use out of the gun if he gave it to a party caster, had them stop time and buff him up/summon meatshields, then hand it back afterwards so he can use it for some good ol fashioned mundane shooting.
Alright, so I'll try this again. Here's the assumptions I'm working under, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of them.
1. You're the DM, your player is a gunslinger, and you're trying to make a magic item for them that's not too out of balance with the rest of the party.
2. You're not using advanced firearms or the double firearms.
3. The weapon is "high tech" or "high fantasy" and uses temporal energy for whatever bonus you want it to give.
4. You want to give the weapon some way to do extra attacks and some kind of fancy extra function.
Your original idea is to give it an X per day casting of Haste and Time Stop.
So, the per day casting of haste versus 1/round usage of haste is a personal choice. Do you want him burning a standard action (and not attacking) for several rounds of more attacks, or do you want him spending energy on a round by round basis to fire out more bullets just that round? The difference is between activating an effect that accelerates you or activating an effect that accelerates your gun (and drags you with it).
The cost for 3/day haste is 16,200 for 5 rounds of haste each. Boots of speed are 10 rounds of haste usable round by round for 12,000. If it's only usable with that weapon it's probably counted as slotted and still only costs 12,000. There's also the semi auto quality from the tech guide that has its own downsides while allowing extra attacks (specifically it gives you free rapid shot, or if you have rapid shot another attack but -4 to all attacks). I can't find a semi auto weapon under 10,000, but they also all target touch and are super high tech. Page is here if you want to check it out yourself. The gun could also grant rapid shot, and feats cost between 5,000 and 15,000 (with added costs for prereqs). All will give you more dakka in various price ranges.
The Time Stop, as has been elaborated, sucks for a gunslinger. Pricing its power level is also impossible, as when it can be used it's the same power as the spell it replicates. When it can't be used, it contributes zero to the gun. If it's reloading you're after it's better to get them something that helps with reloading, or hides spare bullets, or anything other than 1d4+1 rounds of thumb twiddling. Some options include a reloading hands spell to give them continuous magical ammo, continuous hustle for free move actions, or Beneficial Bandolier to teleport bullets into the gun, with an eventual possibility of Pistol of the Infinite Sky for infinite ammo and no misfires.
This all depends on what you want of the extra effect. Reloading hands at will is 10,800 and a standard action for 3 rounds of no cost hands free reloading at will. If you make it continuous it's 48,000. Hustle at will is 14,400 and a swift action to give you a free move action. You could use it to reload, move, whatever you want. Beneficial Bandolier is a tiny bag of holding (no weight change) for guns and ammo that as a swift action lets you teleport a bullet in the bandolier into your gun. It's only 1,000, so adding this to the gun is pretty freaking cheap. Your gunslinger should have one already though, or want to add one on to their DEX belt.
These are all wildly different super effects though. Of them, Hustle is closest to super speed/time manipulation. Reloading Hands is just more bullets, and the Bandolier is more like Judge Dredd and a Lawgiver.
Now, if you want suggestions for this once a month effect we can look to other spells. Damnation Stride is Dimension Door but with an explosion at the start. You could change the damage to sonic and make it less "damned" and more "sonic boom". Walk Through Space lets you move so fast you teleport, though it doesn't actually give you more actions. Perhaps combine with Hustle above for free 30 foot teleports every round.
1/day Damnation Stride is 16,200, 1/day Walk Through Space is 32,760, and those are the costs you should include when trying to balance them. By going to 1/month the easy way (dividing by 30) both of their costs become negligible, but in use it'll be as powerful as the 1/day use. So don't include it in the cost, but do include it in the balancing.
I don't really recommend adding grit costs for any of this, but if you want you can probably include a "recharge x/day abilities with grit". Grit is too low to make it a required resource for the gun, though making it recover one of your 3/day haste or give you 3 rounds of haste is probably fine.
Well, that's a giant wall of text. Plenty to look over and see what you like. Personally I recommend the rounds of haste versus the 3/day haste (don't have to spend a round buffing) and continuous hustle as an always on power with the 1/month option of... well, anything. At that point it's just icing on the cake. Also they'll never quite be balanced. Sonic boom Damnation Stride certainly sounds fun and the "can't act after teleporting" would be disorientation at breaking the sound barrier. With always on Hustle you could have them needing twice as much food, twice as much water, wondering why everyone is so slow, and generally living twice as fast as everyone else. It'd end up priced at 26,400, but could unbalance the campaign as much as a 42,600 item. Also be sure to include the attached ammo magazine for 2,000 (slotless beneficial bandolier) that lets you pick which ammo to fire as a swift action.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: 1. You're the DM, your player is a gunslinger, and you're trying to make a magic item for them that's not too out of balance with the rest of the party. Correct.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: 2. You're not using advanced firearms or the double firearms. Yep! Just the ol' pistols and muskets... for now.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: 3. The weapon is "high tech" or "high fantasy" and uses temporal energy for whatever bonus you want it to give. It's high fantasy and it's a +1 pepperbox pistol.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: 4. You want to give the weapon some way to do extra attacks and some kind of fancy extra function. Exactly.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: Your original idea is to give it an X per day casting of Haste and Time Stop. Yes, but you guys made me see the light and I'm going with the round usage now.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: The cost for 3/day haste is 16,200 for 5 rounds of haste each. Could you please walk me through this process? I've always had some trouble with the magic item creation rules. How did you get that number or any of the others for that matter?
Thanks again for all the suggestions, but I think I'm still going with the Time Stop. I know there are more useful stuff around but I really like the idea of the character (he's level 10, by the way) to stop time and be able to not only reload but hide, run or reposition himself leaving enemies baffled as to what just happened.
If you want to make your player happy, give him a weapon that doesnt explode, ever. It will let him sleep with ease and not sucking is balanced.
Im gessing you are trying to make a "bullet time" kind of weapon so think you could give him a weapon that lets him use the leaping shot deed for free (is kind of a mediocre feat but making it gritless makes it better).
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/leaping-shot-deed-grit
Another option is to give it a grit ability to move as inmidate action, letting it dodging bullets and such.
The standard rules are, if no similar thing exists on the table, 1800xCLxSL for command word and 2000xCLxSL for continuous (with multipliers for longer or shorter spells). You can find the table here.
The most important things for general use are "if nothing similar exists" and "command word" versus "continuous". The first part is so that you don't make an item that duplicates a spell because you want something for cheaper. AC, attack, saves, etc. are all priced that way for a reason, whether you agree with the value or not. The devs have screwed this up on occasion (bracer's of falcon's aim). The second part is the difference between spending a standard action to activate it (for the most part) and having it be "always on".
That being said, all you really care about is the middle of the table where it says "Command Word" and you can generate magical effects. The simplest is "1800 x Caster Level x Spell Level". All this means is the object lets you cast some spell at some caster level. You need the level of the spell and the caster level you want (minimum able to cast the spell). Then you divide by 5/X, where X is the number of charges a day. So for any spell you feel like, plug it into ((1800 x CL x SL)/(5/X)). You should base this on wiz/sor or cleric/druid where available, so Haste gives you CL 5 SL 3 and a formula of (1800x3x5)/(5/3) for 3/day haste cast at CL 5. If you wanted CL 10 instead it'd cost twice as much, but now each casting of haste would last 10 rounds instead of 5.
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